Larsen traps (traps that use live decoy birds) in order to catch others.

TheresaW

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I almost ran over a hedgehog last week on my way up the yard in the morning. He was in the middle of the road, but luckily, at 5 in the morning, there was no traffic so I could go around him. (May have been a her). It's the first hedgehog I've seen for a few years.

A few years ago, OH and I were on our way to take my parents to the airport in the early hours of the morning. A badger ran out in front of the car and we ran over it. It was killed outright and OH did move it to the side of the road so nobody else later ran into it. Badger didn't have a mark on it, but did cause £3500 worth of damage to the car.

Clodagh on here is a friend of mine and on one of my visits to her farm she showed me a Larsen trap they were using. I had never seen one before and wasn't sure how I felt about it, but can hand on heart say that the decoy bird didn't seem overly stressed until it saw us coming. I do understand the need for culling, and I have also seen how ill my horse got on a yard I was on years ago that was overrun with pigeons that the YO was too soft to deal with.
 

RunToEarth

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*roles eyes*

Yes, no one should ever question a practice or dispute it... Just let people get on with killing anything they don't like. Foxes, badgers, birds, mice, rabbits... I'm sure the list goes on...

All such distructive animals that kill other animals, we wouldn't know anything about that would we.

Maybe if we stopped messing with nature it might have a chance to even out. In natural habitats which are undisturbed by humans, the populations of certain predators and prey rise and fall in a cycle. For example, badger eats hedgehogs, hedgehog numbers decline (amoungst others), badger numbers then decline because there is less food... less prey for hedgehogs then means their numbers rise. It's not a difficult concept but humans seem to struggle with it.

Sick of this 'kill it' culture. And i just want to say i don't give a stuff about the shooting being affected by magpies. It's not because i don't understand it, it's because i have come to a different conclusion and i object to suggestions that anyone who does not agree with any form of killing 'is a bunny hugger who does not understand'.

I disagree, the badger population is completely unregulated as there will never be a shortage of food source, it has plentiful species to prey on. The badger has no natural predators in the UK, man irradicated the lynx the wolf and the bear centuries ago, therefore in order to maintain a sensible UK population there is a need for controlled culling, how can there not be, this is why the badger debate is so alive and kicking.

With regards to Larsen decoy birds, depending on the land you manage decoy turnover will differ- the decoy bird needs to have come from a different location to those you are trying to catch, OH rotates his between the Heath and down below, therefore no decoy is there for more than 4-5 days.
Please do not interfere with Larsen traps, imagine how annoyed you would be if someone interfered with your horses rugs as they felt they knew best.
 

somethingorother

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Every species has 'predators' to contend with. We might not have wolves any more, we we have many man made dangers which affects the badger population (the afore mentioned train tracks and cars etc). Other than the TB issue, how does the badger population affect farming? And i don't think the statement of 'there will never be a shortage of food source' is accurate... There could be many reasons why food sources might decline, extreme patches of weather such as extreme cold/ snow/ drought which we do get, will all affect the wildlife be it predator or prey.

Who are we to decide how many is 'too many'?
 

Littlelegs

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I think in all fairness, whilst I don't agree with larsens as a method, humans over many centuries have caused a situation where culling of some species is the only viable option. As a species, we've altered the natural balance so much in the past we can't just leave it to sort itself out. I know in some cases introducing natural predators back helps, but that's a long term method that might not be suitable for some species, so in the meantime culling is necessary. I've never lived in an area where badgers are a problem so I don't have the knowledge to debate whether they are a problem or not for some people. But from what I do know of badgers I suspect they can cause the same problems as any other predator does for a farmer.
 

PoppyAnderson

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I think it would very much depend what you were driving - they're pretty solid animals to try running over - no I'm not talking from experience, I've honestly never run one down!

I have. Only thing I've ever hit in my life. Was driving back from a night out, bout 2am, country lanes near Chester. I was in bits. Badger was still alive but lying in the road. Didn't want to get out of car (fear of the bogey man) but was mortified. Cried and cried but couldn't bring myself to run it back over. Didnt damage the car though.
 

Holly Hocks

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Well having read both sides of the arguement now, I have to say I don't agree with the traps. I don't care that corvids steal gamebirds eggs, because I don't care about shooting!
 

Dry Rot

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I was intending to post a picture of the new borne lamb that had its eyes whipped out by a crow yesterday but a fox has removed the corpse over night.

I don't have sheep any more (this was the neighbour's, just over the fence) but I wish I had a pound for every incapacitated lambing ewe or new borne lamb that had had its eyes removed by one of those dear little crows!

I've used Larsen traps and they work because of the birds' aggression. They go into the trap to attack what they see as a trespasser on their nesting territory. The usual procedure is to knock the bait bird on the head (a quick and humane death) and replace it with the one just caught, so the bait bird you see has probably only been in the trap a few hours. As they feed and drink quite happily in the trap I don't think they are unduly stressed, certainly not as stressed as a conscious animal having its eyes punctured and pulled out must be.

Tampering with a Larsen trap, even though no physical damage is done, is criminal damage and there are a lot of video cameras in the countryside these days. Of course, if you don't mind having a criminal record, ignore the advice.

Sorry for the tone of this post but farmers care for their livestock and if protecting them means inconveniencing a crow, I'm afraid I know whose side I am on.
 

Goldenstar

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I was intending to post a picture of the new borne lamb that had its eyes whipped out by a crow yesterday but a fox has removed the corpse over night.

I don't have sheep any more (this was the neighbour's, just over the fence) but I wish I had a pound for every incapacitated lambing ewe or new borne lamb that had had its eyes removed by one of those dear little crows!

I've used Larsen traps and they work because of the birds' aggression. They go into the trap to attack what they see as a trespasser on their nesting territory. The usual procedure is to knock the bait bird on the head (a quick and humane death) and replace it with the one just caught, so the bait bird you see has probably only been in the trap a few hours. As they feed and drink quite happily in the trap I don't think they are unduly stressed, certainly not as stressed as a conscious animal having its eyes punctured and pulled out must be.

Tampering with a Larsen trap, even though no physical damage is done, is criminal damage and there are a lot of video cameras in the countryside these days. Of course, if you don't mind having a criminal record, ignore the advice.

Sorry for the tone of this post but farmers care for their livestock and if protecting them means inconveniencing a crow, I'm afraid I know whose side I am on.

And I know whose side I am on , and in my case I had every right to remove traps illegally put on my land by an arrogant gamekeeper.
 

Littlelegs

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Dry rot- if its only a few hours I think I could, if not like them, accept them as a method. But you're the only person I've heard of saying they only keep the decoy bird a few hours, its usually at least a few days.
 

Moobucket

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Do so, by all means, but you will most probably be committing criminal damage, be breaking the law, and may well end up in court.

When Game Keepers kill corvids, and all other vermin for that matter, they are not just protecting game birds, but all of our struggling songbird population, upon whom the vermin which they kill, preys.

Despite the constant war which is waged against vermin, they are incredibly tenacious and resilient. Society (that's you and I, by the way), is responsible for the declining wild bird populations in this country, and the corvid family are giving us the greatest assistance in this!!

Before you take the law into your own hands, think carefully about the bigger picture, and the results of your actions.

Alec.


I think the general consensus is that it is changes in farm practices i.e. loss of winter stubble, autumn sown crops, loss of mixed farming and increased cutting rates that have the most significant effect on song bird numbers. (If you want to ease your conscience on this I suggest have a grain feeder at every stables (and keep it topped up), also go for good quality meadow hay. Apart from that we do help birds by being horsey as we prevent the land being built on, maintain the hedgerows and create a diverse habitat).

The corvid family and magpies are some of the most intelligent bird species so I really disagree with this kind of trap. If you must have a pop at them why not shoot them and then its over quickly (assuming you hit them).

I don't see many around my area. They don't seem to work very well. The birds always get out.... shoddy workmanship perhaps... or ..really smart crows.

I think the police have better things to do with their time than chase the great larsen trap master criminals.
 

Dry Rot

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Typical corvid damage -- tongue and eyes removed. The fresh blood suggests this lamb was alive when attacked.

lamb.jpg
 

Moobucket

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And then the cute little gambly lamb grows up and ...... we eat it.

Maybe the way to solve the problem is to place a Roast Lamb lure on every street corner and then when the hapless human stumbles in ... just painlessly knock it on the back of the head. Problem solved. :D
 

a kind of magic

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And then the cute little gambly lamb grows up and ...... we eat it.

Maybe the way to solve the problem is to place a Roast Lamb lure on every street corner and then when the hapless human stumbles in ... just painlessly knock it on the back of the head. Problem solved. :D

You know...that could be an excellent idea!
 

guido16

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Dry rot
Well done on posting that. I hope it doesnt get removed.
I might not use the traps but my 20 bore tries to despatch them when it can.
 

Tormenta

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I think a recent survey showed that the effect of cats on wildlife is actually much lower than first thought, although I would agree that they do have an impact.

People have always kept cats, and they also do a great job of pest control on most farms/stables and I don't think that that is going to change anytime soon.

I have four cats, two are kept indoors and two allowed out, their effect on the wildlife is probably pretty minimal - both are elderly and have no teeth to speak of and are kept in at night.

Probably it is lower than first thought I agree with you, however, when you get a high number of cats in one small area, the effect of their predation in that one area is high, having a more damaging effect to immediate wildlife then say 2 Farm cats who may have acres of area almost to themselves.

I was trying to draw a comparison to the reasons given by posters for killing Badgers, Corvids etc, they are all driven by a natural instinct and not by the way we sometimes anthromorphise the way they behave :)
 

Clodagh

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I don't know if this will work but I found it quiite interesting, it came in the post yesterday.
Corvids.jpg


I'm sure the crow or magpie is a bit stressed in the larsen but if you have ever heard a baby bird being taken while the parents are screaming to try to stop it you may feel it didn't matter so much.
 

Tormenta

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I don't know if this will work but I found it quiite interesting, it came in the post yesterday.
Corvids.jpg


I'm sure the crow or magpie is a bit stressed in the larsen but if you have ever heard a baby bird being taken while the parents are screaming to try to stop it you may feel it didn't matter so much.

Is your leaflet by Songbird Survival, who have been on the go for the past decade or so? Sorry, I am as much inclined to listen to their statistics than I would be with the Hunt Sabs Assocation, both are extreme in their views. Ask the RSPB or your local bird group what they believe about Songbird Survival Group. They encourage Bird of Prey persecution. Utter Crap.
 

lannerch

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Magpies and crows do not peck the eyes lug of healthy sheep and lambs they tend not to
Let them!
Most sheep tend to be almost dead to permit this to happen!
Agree the song birds worst enemy is man and farming practices.
Do not agree though that most badgers in the side of the road have been killed by other means.
Drive down the A55 Chester to north Wales any day and I'll almost garentee your see at least one dead badger it's nicknamed the badgers graveyard!
 

Goldenstar

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Dry rot
Well done on posting that. I hope it doesnt get removed.
I might not use the traps but my 20 bore tries to despatch them when it can.

Why should it get removed to nature it's normal and we eat them so it would be a like illogical to be distressed by a picture of a dead one ,people who dislike Larsen traps aren't stupid they know what crows et all get up to I for one think it's excellent to shot them however I don't approve of these traps .
 

Alec Swan

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Is your leaflet by Songbird Survival, who have been on the go for the past decade or so? Sorry, I am as much inclined to listen to their statistics than I would be with the Hunt Sabs Assocation, both are extreme in their views. Ask the RSPB or your local bird group what they believe about Songbird Survival Group. They encourage Bird of Prey persecution. Utter Crap.

The RSPB are a charity, and are heavily reliant upon donations. They, along with other large charities, aren't too keen on seeing their(?) donations being hived off by the lesser charities, and as a consequence, they rubbish the opposition. It's common practice, so I wouldn't assume that just because the RSPB say that it's so, then it's written in stone!! ;)

We need to maintain a balance, that's what wildlife management is about.

Alec.
 

Tormenta

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The RSPB are a charity, and are heavily reliant upon donations. They, along with other large charities, aren't too keen on seeing their(?) donations being hived off by the lesser charities, and as a consequence, they rubbish the opposition. It's common practice, so I wouldn't assume that just because the RSPB say that it's so, then it's written in stone!! ;)

We need to maintain a balance, that's what wildlife management is about.

Alec.

It's actually my own point of view, by doing my own research and digging, I personally wouldn't support them! I came across Songbird Survival many years ago.

I think it goes a bit deeper than the RSPB trying to see off opposition for donations.

And balance is what I have endorsed in my posts ;)
 

Niraf

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Crows and birds that eat other birds/eggs/lambs eyes etc. are NOT cruel. The only consciously cruel and inhumane creature on the planet is MAN. Crows are only being what they have evolved to be, why should they be punished for just being what they are ? Should we just eradicate and kill all the 'cruel' species ? 'Vermin' are merely successful species that are on a collision course with us. Naturally, culling MAN would be unthinkable - but I for one would advocate it - I would even volunteer for the process once my useful life is over.
 

Fransurrey

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They aren't stressed when there is no one near them, at least no more so than a canary in a cage, they only throw themselves against the wire if you get close.

Have replied to the other thread, but just wanted to comment on this. The trap used near my horses was out of my sight. I was not visible to them and neither was anybody else. I was alerted by the terrible noises they made and the banging of the cage. It was only when I went to investigate that I saw what was going on, so I don't believe the comment above for a second.
 
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