Learned Helplessness

ihatework said:
That’s the crux of it really, isn’t it.
Over recent years I’ve become far more attuned to the fact that ‘we’ basically use horses for our own benefit. We essentially make them do things that often, I’m sure given the choice, they would choose not to do. The label we give to that, LH or something else, doesn’t really matter.
When the majority of people who ride are animal lovers, when you think of it like that it’s kind of unsavoury. But I think only when that realisation dawns on you can you take real steps towards mitigating it.
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On the other hand, what is the alternative? Keeping horses without work is unsustainable for most individuals. Not keeping them will ultimately lead to their extinction - there are no wild horse populations left in the world, and the feral populations aren't doing great either. Personally, I think keeping and riding horses is less of a concern than the declining welfare and inevitable declining populations of not keeping horses.

That said, I believe we owe it to the horses we keep to give them the most natural decent lifestyle we can, and to ride (and therefore) train them as fairly and consistently as possible.
 
I think most normal not overly driven people make a deal with their horse, if you do this for me, we get to do something we both enjoy and take the pressure off.
We had a pony club school master, who literally anyone could ride, a 14.2 that my daughter rode from the age of eight. We used to do Prelim 7 with him, which he virtually could do himself. He was totally compliant, stopped, cantered all on que but his nose stuck out. Older daughter goes to Talland and come back enthused to improve him. He was having non of it, as soon as you picked up a contact, a normal one, the naughtier he got, head wagging, shying at nothing and soon as you dropped it he switched back.
That was the deal, he would behave perfectly as long as you didn't put him out, which was fine by me as I just wanted a safe child's pony. He had been in a large riding school and knew every trick in the book to avoid working properly, but would work willingly his way.
I once was talking to a pro eventer and I said I find out what they like to do and work from that, where as her idea was you make them do things, which is great if you have the skill and sometimes the violence to make them do it. My friend once said to me that a good pro knows when to stop hitting them. That's not my sort of horsemanship.
I would say I am in the middle, if they need to do something I will be firm, but I would rather make my choice for them the obviously better option. With kids ponies, the child can never really make the pony do anything, so you have to make the advantage to the pony so obvious, and the un desired behaviour door so shut they can not be bothered to push it. That's why I like ponies, you constantly have to use your brain make your option the one they one they want to take. I just can not see the satisfaction in making anything do anything if you have to make it LH or use any sort of violence.
 
JFTD said:
On the other hand, what is the alternative? Keeping horses without work is unsustainable for most individuals. Not keeping them will ultimately lead to their extinction - there are no wild horse populations left in the world, and the feral populations aren't doing great either. Personally, I think keeping and riding horses is less of a concern than the declining welfare and inevitable declining populations of not keeping horses.

That said, I believe we owe it to the horses we keep to give them the most natural decent lifestyle we can, and to ride (and therefore) train them as fairly and consistently as possible.
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SEL said:
Loving this thread! When I first read the blogs I suppose i interpreted LH as those horses that just keep working day after day because humans have ignored the signs that they hurt, need to stop whatever..... I was on a yard with some ex polo ponies and it was obvious to me one was sore somewhere, but no one was interested. That poor mare actually lay down when being led in from the field one day because no one would listen.

But then again perhaps it isn't that extreme. Militaire was trained with the clicker at the circus I understand, so positive reinforcement. That's supposed to be a good method, but even with it he must have carried on working with knackered joints because those arthritic changes didn't happen overnight. So he would have been working through the pain because he didn't know how to tell people. After 3 years with me he is still the most compliant horse I have ever had so I have to be very alert to him being 'off' because he will shut down rather than shout.

And then that brings me onto the very shouty mare. She'd tell you if she has an eyelash out of place - I thought - but carried on with me riding her when she had a dodgy leg. So that must be LH too. And I'm depressing myself a bit with that thought tbh.
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As an aside, how did you come to buy Militaire, given his unusual background?
 
mule said:
As an aside, how did you come to buy Militaire, given his unusual background?
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A lady nearby bought him for vaulting but when he went lame the ringbone was discovered. He then went to be a therapy horse at a RS (which he was amazing at) and was sharing a paddock with my mare. When he didn't have a job with the RS they needed a home. ....I couldn't split them up so he stayed!!!
 
The reality IMO is that all horses must exhibit some form of LH otherwise they'd never let us sit on them, day after day. I don't think that is cooperation really, we can tell ourselves that through a period of gentle learning the horse learns that it's OK for us to sit on their back but when they put up objections we find ways to make them just accept it... if the horse bucks, we cling on, until they stop bucking.
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I think this drastically underestimates the level of genuine desire to cooperate and/or genuine lack of concern of most horses about what we want to do with them.

Most horses never buck when they are broken, and don't require lengthy periods of desensitization before they are sat on. Those which do are being taught that we are not lions who are going to kill them, not taught learned helplessness. If you fetched a lion you'd soon see the difference 😂

I do get concerned about the amount of tying up that goes on these days. If you tie up, especially cross tie, to do anything with the horse, how is it supposed to tell you that it doesn't want to be washed, groomed, or saddled? I never tie up to tack up. The day a horse turns away when it sees its tack is the day you need to investigate why.
 
ycbm said:
I think this drastically underestimates the level of genuine desire to cooperate and/or genuine lack of concern of most horses about what we want to do with them.

Most horses never buck when they are broken, and don't require lengthy periods of desensitization before they are sat on. Those which do are being taught that we are not lions who are going to kill them, not taught learned helplessness. If you fetched a lion you'd soon see the difference 😂

I do get concerned about the amount of tying up that goes on these days. If you tie up, especially cross tie, to do anything with the horse, how is it supposed to tell you that it doesn't want to be washed, groomed, or saddled? I never tie up to tack up. The day a horse turns away when it sees its tack is the day you need to investigate why.
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Horses are definitely very cooperative by nature. There were many attempts by European explorers to domesticate zebras for use for exploring in Africa because they were better in the climate than the imported European horses. They never managed it on a large scale. The zebras were too aggressive.
 
ycbm said:
I think this drastically underestimates the level of genuine desire to cooperate and/or genuine lack of concern of most horses about what we want to do with them.

Most horses never buck when they are broken, and don't require lengthy periods of desensitization before they are sat on. Those which do are being taught that we are not lions who are going to kill them, not taught learned helplessness. If you fetched a lion you'd soon see the difference 😂

I do get concerned about the amount of tying up that goes on these days. If you tie up, especially cross tie, to do anything with the horse, how is it supposed to tell you that it doesn't want to be washed, groomed, or saddled? I never tie up to tack up. The day a horse turns away when it sees its tack is the day you need to investigate why.
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I don't tie up to do much other than have them shod either, tbh I don't think that's a great diagnostic because they've learnt one way or another to stand still when I'm doing stuff to them.

I think horses are cooperative, that is clear. But I still think we massively take advantage of that, don't always honour our side of the bargain and I do think there's an uncomfortable truth there, the reason lots of horses accept lots of bad riding is that they don't think they have an alternative, when in fact they could easily ditch their rider and run to freedom.

it's easy to sit here and think to myself that I try and train my horses in the most horse friendly way I can think of, but when all is said and done they have *no alternative*, they are trapped in the life they have. From my POV as a free human with autonomy I tell myself that they don't do too badly out of me, I bend over backwards to try and keep them well... but Kira's life before me was untouched in a field for 3 years and I'd be a fool to think she didn't prefer that! When i came along, her options boiled down to get with it or get put down. Cooperative or not, that's a stark choice really!
 
Kira's life before me was untouched in a field for 3 years and I'd be a fool to think she didn't prefer that!
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Of course you know her best, but I think a lot of other horses feel differently. I have a three year old who I would say definitely wants to be with me doing stuff, a mini who will come in for cuddles instead of grass at the drop of a hat and a cob who doesn't seem to be bothered one way or the other. I owned an eventer who would load himself in any open lorry and stand there waiting for you to shut the ramp and go somewhere. That was embarrassing when it wasn't your lorry and he wasn't going anywhere 😂. He was also seen to jump courses of show jumps for the hell of it if turned out in a field with any left standing.

It sounds sad to refer to a horse as 'trapped' in its life. I'm not sure if I could keep them if I felt that they felt that to be the case. Mine are in eleven acres. I'm reasonably sure that if they didn't want the life I offer them there's sod all I could do to catch them and make them accept it. I think most horses are simply relieved that somebody else takes the responsibility for all their decisions. There are a fair few people who like to live life that way, too.
 
I have all that too, I have horses that choose cuddles over grass, I have horses that run up any ramp that's down, i have been towed round huge xc courses and the hunting field and all that.

One of those horses is now turned away to a life of complete freedom (within 8 acres!) with very little human interaction and even though I thought she really might miss her previous life, other people told me the same, it's very clear she doesn't give two hoots. She accommodated me, that was generous of her.
And they must surely be trapped, the gate is shut, the fence is secure, they can't wander off ;) The others get led around by a rope they can't break that's wrapped round their head.

I try to be as benign as possible as their keeper, but there's no way I'm letting them go! the nature of one animal owning another is a bit of an odd one but that's how it is.
 
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How high are normal fences and gates? I don't know any horses that couldn't jump out of they chose, yet they choose to stay. Surely that says something about how much they are concerned about their lives with humans?

I don't feel as if my horses 'accommodate me'. I feel as if they either genuinely don't mind what they are being asked to do and the life they are being asked to lead, or they actively choose it over alternatives. My cats choose to be with me rather than wander. I think my horses do too.
 
Well again, I think they can jump out but when they do we put them back so they learn not to ;) Millie used to jump out now and then, she still pops over her 4 foot electric fence occasionally and once or twice they've bust through the massive thick hedge and gone for a jolly :oops:. Her old fieldmate used to hop over the fences to find a group of horses he liked spending time around.

On the whole they know they ought to stay put ... I think they learn about fences at a very early age, it's the nature of being a domesticated animal.
We'll have to agree to disagree, i really can't see any animal genuinely choosing to be sat on, told where to go and how to do it etc if there was a genuine alternative. of course, there isn't an alternative really, they are dependent on us for food, water and shelter.
 
ycbm said:
How high are normal fences and gates? I don't know any horses that couldn't jump out of they chose, yet they choose to stay.
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I am not sure horses think far enough ahead to be able to plan a Great Escape. Nor are they aware of their options. So they'll jump out for better grass but otherwise accept the life they are in unless it is so aversive they feel compelled to flee it. That's not the same as choosing it though.

I have no ethical objection to the use of horses. As was said above, what's the alternative? I don;t think my horse are unhappy or unwilling either. When I bitted my 3 year old I did it loose in a large field. (No reins!) She could walk off anytime - and indeed did - but curiosity brought her back. I think horses are by nature curious and co-operative creatures. I also think they are creatures of routine and habit and do what they have been taught to do willingly enough. But the blogs made me question how much they really do want to work and how much they just tolerate it.
 
ETA I don't think the blogs author has answered that question either - despite her statement that the tradition she uses is the 'alternative to LH'. I think the horses I saw ridden by Buck had just as little choice as any other horse. His whisper then bellow approach is not fundamentally different really. The horse learns it's a good idea to go off the first cue and so does. How he feels about it is unknowable imo. You can tell when a horse is miserable but I am not sure you can tell the difference between willing acceptance of a situation and genuine choice about a situation.
 
Ambers Echo said:
You can tell when a horse is miserable but I am not sure you can tell the difference between willing acceptance of a situation and genuine choice about a situation.
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A bit like me on a Monday morning when I have to get up for work.
I’m sure the company tells themself I arrive because they are nice people and dynamic and offer me plenty of opportunities .....
 
milliepops said:
when the reality is you somehow just need to pay the bills!
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Precisely.
And domesticated horses are reliant on us for most things, so generally comply the majority of the time if we are nice to them. And even if we are not nice to them, most will ultimately comply (LH). You can see varying degrees of it across all equestrianism, myself included.
 
But horses don't have that logic, do they? Turn up for work and do what the boss says or I'll get sacked and the mortgage won't be paid?


I'm as certain as I can be that my horses have no perception that they are dependant on me for food and water. They have water which magically refills itself every time they drink, in multiple places. They have 11 acres of grass, and racks which also mysteriously fill themselves full of haylage every time they are anywhere near empty in winter. They have a barn which for nine months of the year they choose whether to be in or not for the whole or the majority of the day. I can't see how mine would make any connection between my request for them to be with me and 'work' with their necessity for food, water, or shelter.

I can't fit the 'horses are complying because they are reliant on us' to my situation at all. If I disappeared tomorrow and nobody noticed, provided the water didn't stop running, my horses would still be fine in the spring and they know that. In my experience, most horses are complying because they are perfectly happy to comply, having been bred for millennia for that level of domesticity and compliance.
 
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ihatework said:
A bit like me on a Monday morning when I have to get up for work.
I’m sure the company tells themself I arrive because they are nice people and dynamic and offer me plenty of opportunities .....
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However, being devil's advocate.....
There are lots of things about my life that I didn't really choose. Living in this country for example, I didn't choose it, I could easily leave, nobody actively trained me to stay put, but yet I do.

I think that there is a massive middle ground between actively choosing something (because we like it or think that we will), and actively being unhappy with something. A big middle ground of passive acceptance, and I think that for large proportion of our lives, that is what we live in. And I think that's the same for most horses too (afterall, they have even less reasoning ability than us).

For me the issue around LH is more about those things that a horse actively dislikes/is wary of and how much/which of them you aim through training to shift into the zone of passive acceptance and the way in which you do it.

I don't think the author really answers that either AE
 
DabDab said:
However, being devil's advocate.....
There are lots of things about my life that I didn't really choose. Living in this country for example, I didn't choose it, I could easily leave, nobody actively trained me to stay put, but yet I do.

I think that there is a massive middle ground between actively choosing something (because we like it or think that we will), and actively being unhappy with something. A big middle ground of passive acceptance, and I think that for large proportion of our lives, that is what we live in. And I think that's the same for most horses too (afterall, they have even less reasoning ability than us).

For me the issue around LH is more about those things that a horse actively dislikes/is wary of and how much/which of them you aim through training to shift into the zone of passive acceptance and the way in which you do it.

I don't think the author really answers that either AE
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Passive acceptance is a good description.
 
DabDab said:
However, being devil's advocate.....
There are lots of things about my life that I didn't really choose. Living in this country for example, I didn't choose it, I could easily leave, nobody actively trained me to stay put, but yet I do.

I think that there is a massive middle ground between actively choosing something (because we like it or think that we will), and actively being unhappy with something. A big middle ground of passive acceptance, and I think that for large proportion of our lives, that is what we live in. And I think that's the same for most horses too (afterall, they have even less reasoning ability than us).

For me the issue around LH is more about those things that a horse actively dislikes/is wary of and how much/which of them you aim through training to shift into the zone of passive acceptance and the way in which you do it.

I don't think the author really answers that either AE
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For sure, I don’t disagree with any of that
 
One of the most wonderful mysterious things in world is how horses learn to do the stuff we teach them .
I started my grey Harvey on half pass this week he’s been off a while and if hacking about I have been leg yielding across the tracks and putting him in the shoulder in , travers , renvers positioning to dispel the boredom .
On Wednesday I had in the SI positioning looked along the line I wanted him to go and did it a baby half pass the changed the bend and went back the verge then I let him walk on a long rein and I could feel him thinking about it.
Those moments with horses are just magic .
He came with very Irish flat work and it’s taken him time to embrace training as fun in his world eating was fun and jumping was fun and schooling was about people being not very pleased with him and he hates people being displeased .
Trust is so important when they trust you always to be fair in the training it’s so special .
I am of course interested in the Science of things but I just go at it as I always have by instinct .
Horses are just fantastic .
 
Goldenstar said:
One of the most wonderful mysterious things in world is how horses learn to do the stuff we teach them .
I started my grey Harvey on half pass this week he’s been off a while and if hacking about I have been leg yielding across the tracks and putting him in the shoulder in , travers , renvers positioning to dispel the boredom .
On Wednesday I had in the SI positioning looked along the line I wanted him to go and did it a baby half pass the changed the bend and went back the verge then I let him walk on a long rein and I could feel him thinking about it.
Those moments with horses are just magic .
He came with very Irish flat work and it’s taken him time to embrace training as fun in his world eating was fun and jumping was fun and schooling was about people being not very pleased with him and he hates people being displeased .
Trust is so important when they trust you always to be fair in the training it’s so special .
I am of course interested in the Science of things but I just go at it as I always have by instinct .
Horses are just fantastic .
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They are fantastic aren't they 😀
I did some fast work in a big field while hacking today. The beast loved it. It's been a long time since I got out of the saddle and went for a gallop.
 
I think it’s wise to remember that horses live in the moment. They don’t have the capacity to ‘wish’ they had a different life and I highly doubt they have the ability to think back to a previous time of life and pine for that existence once again.
They live in the moment. If they are provided food, water, turnout to do horse stuff and safety in the form of a friend, they are generally content with their lot. Yes they have the ability to jump the fences that contain them, and occasionally one will if the grass is greener, but most don’t. Even those that do, I’m pretty sure they don’t do it to embark on some Dick Whittington quest for a better life...

Ridden work just becomes something they do. The generally don’t question it because they are pretty accepting and provided they aren’t in any discomfort or have reason to find the experience a negative one, many do seem perfectly content to go along with what we ask. You could argue that they have no choice and are forced into it and perhaps what we perceive as them ‘enjoying it’ is simply tolerating and accepting it. Maybe it is. Someone above mentioned passive acceptance and I think that’s a good description.
 
I would not be quick to say that horses don’t remember things ,places other horses , people .
You can take horses to the vets and they know it’s not going to be nice and they can recognise that vet at home after .
I think horses who have had good homes that suit them can suffer badly mentally when they move homes to somewhere that suits less .
I think they have an understanding of happy and sad in a basic way .
Why do they let us train them what do they get out of it ? my experiance is of sport type horses and hunters and these horses can enjoy training why ? I think what they like is learning physical things and might that be because hard wired as prey animals they value athleticism .
 
Goldenstar said:
I would not be quick to say that horses don’t remember things ,places other horses , people .
You can take horses to the vets and they know it’s not going to be nice and they can recognise that vet at home after .
I think horses who have had good homes that suit them can suffer badly mentally when they move homes to somewhere that suits less .
I think they have an understanding of happy and sad in a basic way .
Why do they let us train them what do they get out of it ? my experiance is of sport type horses and hunters and these horses can enjoy training why ? I think what they like is learning physical things and might that be because hard wired as prey animals they value athleticism .
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Mine is interesting that way. If we're in the arena, strolling around on a loose rein, and there are jumps up, he'll try to zoom over them 😁

My experience has been in ish and Irish draughts. The ones I've known have all loved galloping and jumping.
I wonder is that because that type are bred to be hunters or is it simply because they are athletic.
 
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Goldenstar said:
I would not be quick to say that horses don’t remember things ,places other horses , people .
You can take horses to the vets and they know it’s not going to be nice and they can recognise that vet at home after .
I think horses who have had good homes that suit them can suffer badly mentally when they move homes to somewhere that suits less .
I think they have an understanding of happy and sad in a basic way .
Why do they let us train them what do they get out of it ? my experiance is of sport type horses and hunters and these horses can enjoy training why ? I think what they like is learning physical things and might that be because hard wired as prey animals they value athleticism .
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I fully agree that horses can and do remember things or people that they believe were a threat to their survival, or caused them fear or distress. And I believe that a move to a less suitable environment can definitely cause a great deal of stress as they adapt to a new life, but I don’t believe that 6-months down the line they will still be wishing they were at that lovely previous yard with more turnout/bigger stable/better owner. If they haven’t adapted and are still showing signs of stress or anxiety then it’s up to the owner to try to understand what is going on and look at their management and how they might be able to change it.
Its very difficult to not put human emotions and thought processes on horses, but the reality is, they do not think like we do.
 
I do think horses experience pleasure in their work - even those that aren't as naturally athletic as GSs - Dae literally jumps for fun if there are fences up in the arena or in his field, Fergus has always shown enthusiasm for certain flatwork exercises (he loves sideways in every form, and he loves doing repetitive simple changes, among other things), Skye likes stopping - sliding stops, not being stopped! I don't think that's projection on my part - it's not like I'm kidding myself they all enjoy the sports I want to do with them!

I don't have an ethical problem with keeping or riding (or otherwise working) horses - but I do have an ethical problem with not keeping them in a fair and reasonable manner to do that work, and I do think it's important to match the job to the horse, and not the other way around. Even if you bought it to jump, if it's not basically keen to jump (after basic training to develop the concept), find a different job, or a different horse.
 
I believe that healthy horses of all types not just hunters and sporty types can enjoy working learning and being busy and they can enjoy this more than being field ornaments .
Most horses now a days live in small fields and some spend their whole time in livery yards in tiny fields to those who call stables cages I would say these are just cages under the sky to horses who are designed way back to move over large areas foraging .
Hunters, I have spent a lot of time with hunters , learn the shapes of the hills they travel over often and where the tracks are to get up and down they are using a natural ability when they do that .
Stuck in a small field ( to them )hemmed in time on their hooves needing non of the resourcefulness they naturally have still in them from their wild time is it really so diffcult to understand that in a nice home with kind trainers that they can enjoy using their brains and their physical energy to work .
I completely agree no matter beauifully bred a horse is if it does not want to do the job you bought it for find it another one .
 
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