Legal advice re AWOL groom needed please!

[141070]

About three weeks ago my groom of two years decided that I was being very unreasonable expecting her to work when she wanted to go out with her friends and told me that working was getting in the was of her social life and that she wasn't going to work any more! She told me this by text message when I was away at a showjumping clinic three hours away from home. I had to leave the clinic straight away and drive back home to finish off the yard - she had literally abandoned twenty horses to go to a party!
As a result I had to withdraw two horses from a competition the next day and lost over £200 in entry fees.
I said to her that she must give me one months notice so that I could find someone else (as per her contract) and she basically told me to 'get real' and that she wasn't working for me any more - she was on a decent wage £13,000pa after deductions working 7.30-4.30 six days per week.
She had worked for six days in the month before going AWOL and she has just texted me to say that she is coming for her money and she wants to be paid holiday money for the rest of the month she was AWOL!
Bearing in mind that she walked off the job without giving any notice and that as a result I have lost £100's in entry fees & the cost of the clinic I had to abandon am I obliged to pay her for these days or should she forfeit it? I am of the mind that she actually owes me 30 days money for walking out without any notice!

 

[Talan]

No you aren't. Google ACAS and ring them right away.

 

[poggio]

You might want to double check this but I would say she is only entitled to be paid up until the day she left, and possibly the holiday pay she had earnt up to that point (works out at about 2days per month)
However, it depends what is written in her contract. If she is contracted to give a months notice then it may be at the discretion of the employee how much she gets paid.
I never had a staff member go AWOL but I have had them up and leave without working their notice and in that case I worked on the above but it was at the discretion of the top guns above me.

Good luck, its not the nicest situation to be in!

 

[scotsmare]

You only have to pay her for the days she actually worked - nothing more.

 

[vanessadud]

Shes in the wrong and owes you!! hope you get it sorted soon

 

[Talan]

Please, ring ACAS. If she was obliged by contract to give you a month's notice then she owes you money in lieu. So, no, you don't necessarily have to pay her for the hours she's worked.

 

[141070]

Maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed if she had at least waited until after the weekend knowing that I was meant to be away at a competition. I started doubting that I had been fair to her but at the end of the day she had an easy job, I gave her an Advanced dressage horse and a Grade A showjumper to compete as and when she wanted. I told her at least two months prior to any stay away competitions so that she could plan her days off around them and she just does a runner and drops me right in it!

 

[Shilasdair]

Well, you are legally obliged to pay her for the days she worked for you, and for any holiday she had accrued, but not yet taken.
She is in breach of contract as she didn't give you the month's notice, but this depends on whether a tribunal would believe the contract to be reasonable - a month is quite long for a groom's job, I think. If she is in breach of contract, you can sue her for damage/losses arising from her failure to work a notice period - but how would you quantify that, realistically?
It is worth saying too, that you must be absolutely sure that your contract didn't break employment law in terms of National Minimum Wage, paid holiday entitlement, hours of work (there is a max. number of hours an employee is supposed to work as a mean over a 17 week period; to do any more, she'd have to agree to it on paper to be legally correct).
I appreciate you are annoyed with her, but suggest the least stressful thing for you to do is to pay her the wages and holiday money you owe her with as good a grace as you can muster, and let it go.
S

 

[141070]

[ QUOTE ]
Please, ring ACAS. If she was obliged by contract to give you a month's notice then she owes you money in lieu. So, no, you don't necessarily have to pay her for the hours she's worked.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just on the ACAS website now, thanks Talan. Why does life have to be so complicated!?!?!

 

[CBAnglo]

Agree. Except I think damages can be quantified here as the OP had to withdraw from the compeition as had to cover for the groom.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Please, ring ACAS. If she was obliged by contract to give you a month's notice then she owes you money in lieu. So, no, you don't necessarily have to pay her for the hours she's worked.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not true that you can not pay her - ACAS talks about damages (due to an adverse financial impact on the business) not wages;

Ending a contract of employment

A contract of employment may be ended by mutual agreement or by the employer or employee giving the required notice of termination. If the employer fails to give the required notice the employee can make a claim to the courts for damages for wrongful dismissal. Alternatively, if the employment has been terminated, a claim can be made to an employment tribunal. <font color="red"> </font> Where the employee leaves without giving the required notice, the employer may also have, in certain circumstances, a right to claim damages in the courts or at an employment tribunal (6). </font> Either party can terminate the contract without notice if the conduct of the other justifies it. The section on Disciplinary Procedures contains examples of gross misconduct justifying dismissal without notice. The full three-stage standard statutory procedure should always be used before deciding whether to dismiss. Resignation without notice (and a possible claim of constructive dismissal) is only justified where the employer makes a 'fundamental' or 'repudiatory' breach of the contract. Whether or not the breach is considered fundamental will depend on the particular circumstances but may include such actions as a reduction in pay, withdrawal of benefits or change of duties. In the event of a dispute, the question of justification can finally be determined only by the courts.

 

[141070]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you are legally obliged to pay her for the days she worked for you, and for any holiday she had accrued, but not yet taken.
She is in breach of contract as she didn't give you the month's notice, but this depends on whether a tribunal would believe the contract to be reasonable - a month is quite long for a groom's job, I think. If she is in breach of contract, you can sue her for damage/losses arising from her failure to work a notice period - but how would you quantify that, realistically?
It is worth saying too, that you must be absolutely sure that your contract didn't break employment law in terms of National Minimum Wage, paid holiday entitlement, hours of work (there is a max. number of hours an employee is supposed to work as a mean over a 17 week period; to do any more, she'd have to agree to it on paper to be legally correct).
I appreciate you are annoyed with her, but suggest the least stressful thing for you to do is to pay her the wages and holiday money you owe her with as good a grace as you can muster, and let it go.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

She worked 7.30-4.30 for six days per week with an hour for lunch and wasn't expected to do overtime unless she turned up late or overran her lunch break. She was on £16,800pa which is over the national minimum wage.
It was an agreed one-month notice period as she was paid monthly and a months notice would give me a chance to find another groom and her to find another job.
The damages/losses would be factual - paid entry fees for competitions that she knew about eight week previously and which as a result of her walking out meant that I couldn't go and the loss of my clinic fees.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Agree. Except I think damages can be quantified here as the OP had to withdraw from the compeition as had to cover for the groom.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think an employment tribunal would see withdrawal from a show as loss of earnings resulting from the groom's departure, in the same way that the groom would not be responsible for the cash had the OP cancelled a holiday to the Caribbean...

The employment tribunal will have expected her to employ a replacement groom, I suspect.
Either way, I am not sure I'd waste my time, if I were OP, pursuing this through employment tribunals for £200; I'd just pay what I owed the groom and move on.
S

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, you are legally obliged to pay her for the days she worked for you, and for any holiday she had accrued, but not yet taken.
She is in breach of contract as she didn't give you the month's notice, but this depends on whether a tribunal would believe the contract to be reasonable - a month is quite long for a groom's job, I think. If she is in breach of contract, you can sue her for damage/losses arising from her failure to work a notice period - but how would you quantify that, realistically?
It is worth saying too, that you must be absolutely sure that your contract didn't break employment law in terms of National Minimum Wage, paid holiday entitlement, hours of work (there is a max. number of hours an employee is supposed to work as a mean over a 17 week period; to do any more, she'd have to agree to it on paper to be legally correct).
I appreciate you are annoyed with her, but suggest the least stressful thing for you to do is to pay her the wages and holiday money you owe her with as good a grace as you can muster, and let it go.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

She worked 7.30-4.30 for six days per week with an hour for lunch and wasn't expected to do overtime unless she turned up late or overran her lunch break. She was on £16,800pa which is over the national minimum wage.
It was an agreed one-month notice period as she was paid monthly and a months notice would give me a chance to find another groom and her to find another job.
The damages/losses would be factual - paid entry fees for competitions that she knew about eight week previously and which as a result of her walking out meant that I couldn't go and the loss of my clinic fees.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't implying that you were breaking employment laws...but so many horsey employers do inadvertently.
The job sounds reasonable for a groom's position - I am sure you will easily find someone to fill it, and can concentrate your efforts on your horses rather than pursuing your ex-groom.
Good luck finding a new groom.
S

 

[141070]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agree. Except I think damages can be quantified here as the OP had to withdraw from the compeition as had to cover for the groom.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think an employment tribunal would see withdrawal from a show as loss of earnings resulting from the groom's departure, in the same way that the groom would not be responsible for the cash had the OP cancelled a holiday to the Caribbean...

The employment tribunal will have expected her to employ a replacement groom, I suspect.
Either way, I am not sure I'd waste my time, if I were OP, pursuing this through employment tribunals for £200; I'd just pay what I owed the groom and move on.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest the money isn't really an issue - it's the principle!
The entry fees aren't 'loss of income', it simply means that I'm out of pocket as I can't expect my owners to foot the bill when their horses were perfectly fit to compete.
From the replies it seems that any contracted term of notice isn't really worth the paper it's written on as the groom can simply walk out, drop the employer in it and still demand to be paid and to receive all of the holiday benefits. Surely there must be some consequence for an employee breaking the terms of a contract?

 

[Talan]

The reason I'm saying contact ACAS is because that way you will be able to talk to someone about your individual case, and get informed and accurate advice. No offence to anyone here, but we could be anyone. ACAS advice will cost you nothing and it will be correct.

 

[the watcher]

I guess one immediate consequence is that they needn't expect a reference if they are planning going into the same line of work.

 

[CracklinRosie]

There will be when she tries to get another job and you have to give a reference. She probably hasn't taken that into consideration when walking off the job.

Her next prospective employer will find it rather strange when they ask for a reference and it's not from you!! Then if they do contact you, you can tell them the truth.

I'm sure you can probably pursue her legally for breach of contract but I would be checking the contract before taking it to a tribunal as they will take it apart and if there is anything untoward in it then they are likey to find against you.

Is she due holiday pay from you? She could legally have 3 weeks holiday and take that in lieu of notice.

 

[141070]

[ QUOTE ]
There will be when she tries to get another job and you have to give a reference. She probably hasn't taken that into consideration when walking off the job.

Her next prospective employer will find it rather strange when they ask for a reference and it's not from you!! Then if they do contact you, you can tell them the truth.

I'm sure you can probably pursue her legally for breach of contract but I would be checking the contract before taking it to a tribunal as they will take it apart and if there is anything untoward in it then they are likey to find against you.

Is she due holiday pay from you? She could legally have 3 weeks holiday and take that in lieu of notice.

[/ QUOTE ]

No she's actually had more days than she was owed!

 

[BigBird146]

As others have said, you have to pay her up to the day she quit and any holiday pay accrued (it is illegal to with-hold wages due). The only consequence for her will be that you will presumably not give her a reference (you have to be careful giving bad references as well even!!)
I think a 'reasonable' notice period pretty much relates to the pay period, ie weekly paid staff should be on a week's notice and monthly paid staff a month's notice.
Cut your losses, and move on, employing people is always a pain in the a*se because the law is pretty much in their favour and there is very little accountability for employees actions.

 

[popp]

has anyone though to speak to the girl there may be more reasons for her just walking out ppl normally have other problems when you just walk out of a job out of the blue.....

 

[CracklinRosie]

If she's had more holidays then she's due then you can probably deduct this from her six days wages but I would be speaking to ACAS first.

 

[lochpearl]

I was advised by ACAS that if the person left with no notice you could take any holiday that you owed them as notice and not have to pay them for it. Also if she has had too much holiday i.e. she has taken 12 days and only accrued 10 days you should take it off her final salary. You do not need to pay her a months notice as she was unwilling to work it - if you had given her notice you would have had to pay her. So I would pay her 6 days minus days she owed you and make sure that you have everything written down for her. If she wants to go to tribunal then she will anyway. Good luck I know how you are feeling - we have had many problems in my business like this!!

 

[Baileyhoss]

Nope, this is an extract from our policies &amp; procedures. We have a huge company - 1000+ employees &amp; a specialist HR division, so I am fairly sure we are legally correct.

'An employee leaving the company will receive payment in lieu of any holiday due within the current holiday year pro rata., but not taken by the date of the termination of employment. At the time of leaving , should the actual holidays taken exceed the accrued days, any over entitlement will be recovered by deduction from wages or salaries'.

So, if she has taken too many holidays, you can deduct these from her pay for the days she worked. Phone acas to check tho, and have everything in writing &amp; have a witness there when she comes.

 

[SO1]

Pay her the 6 days she has worked. How many days holiday is she owed if it is a months worth then I would pay her and she that is her notice.

If it is less than a months worth then say to her say to her she is breach of her contract and that you are perfectly entitled to persue her through the courts for damages for breaking the contract. Explain to her that if you win she will have to pay you damages which will amount to far more than her holiday pay so perhaps you can come to some sort of out of court settlement where you agree not to persue her through court and she agrees to forefit her holiday pay.

Good luck and I hope you find a better groom.

 

[The Original Kao]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed if she had at least waited until after the weekend knowing that I was meant to be away at a competition. I started doubting that I had been fair to her but at the end of the day she had an easy job, I gave her an Advanced dressage horse and a Grade A showjumper to compete as and when she wanted. I told her at least two months prior to any stay away competitions so that she could plan her days off around them and she just does a runner and drops me right in it!

[/ QUOTE ]

can i come work for you ?

 

[immybrookstud]

I work in pub trade, we pay days they have worked + any holidays the have aquired.

But you said she has had more holidays than she was ment to, work out what pay is owed to her for what she has worked.

then work out how many extra holidays she has taken, minus the extra holiday days for her pay, and give her what is left. as long as you have a record of what she has had you will be fine.

dont forget you cant by law give a bad ref, if anyone contacts you for one, just say you feel unable to give a ref for this person.

 

[Tia]

Others have given you advice on how to handle this legally. I'd just like to say though, there are always 2 sides to every story and people do not usually just up and leave without having good cause to. So although you believe the job she had was fair and reasonable, perhaps she didn't?

 

[RLF]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess one immediate consequence is that they needn't expect a reference if they are planning going into the same line of work.

[/ QUOTE ]
sounds like she doesn't have time for a job with the current social life :

 

[SSM]

If this groom does come back to you for a reference (and I expect they will), please be aware that you can give a good reference or no reference - a negative reference can get you into trouble.

Refusing to give a reference speaks volumes, however if she was a good worker give her the credit due but state that she did not complete her notice period.