Leo flipped and smashed a carriage to pieces tonight

[Leo Walker]

whether you're fortunate enough to be able to retire Leo as I have Tudor, or have to make a different sort of decision, you haven't failed him in any way, shape or form: you've done what no one else has up to this point and listened.

Thank you. I am beyond heartbroken but hes a different horse now with me. Hes so happy and I forget hes not the horrid creature I brought home who hated everyone but me. So if nothing else its been worth it for that alone.

 

[Goldenstar]

Why wouldn't they?
I have known people be walking down the street and suddenly drop in a seizure. I had a dog who would have seizures any time, at home, out for a walk in the woods, on the beach, in the car. I was told to be careful with her around steps and water, in case she suddenly had a seizure, although she usually knew when she was going to have one and came to me. people are usually told to avoid being near water if they are on their own.

Some thing to do with adrenaline I think .
A friend had a horse with epilepsy it was fine ridden it did have to be PTS in the end because it was not safe to look after .

 

[Auslander]

Just thinking aloud here, and I don't mean to be negative,or upset you. I think that having him professionally assessed as a ridden horse is great, but presumably, if he was professionally assessed as a driving horse any time prior to the events of this week, he'd have been passed as a safe driving horse. I just wonder if he might one day have a similar meltdown under saddle, which no-one could have predicted, the same way no-one could have predicted that he'd do what he did in harness.

 

[Goldenstar]

Thank you. I am beyond heartbroken but hes a different horse now with me. Hes so happy and I forget hes not the horrid creature I brought home who hated everyone but me. So if nothing else its been worth it for that alone.

I feel for you you are in a difficult situation .
Whatever you decide is the right thing if you decide to PTS it’s the right thing if you decide on some form of retirement it’s fine if he can have a job riding after careful checks that’s fine .
The important thing he had a happy time knowing what it was to have good loving care in that he very lucky .
I have been in a similar situation I bought a very cheap driving horse after trying for over a year mine was different in that in harness he was great but he showed random biazzre behaviour in stables ,wagon and trailers he was also diffcult to keep sound but much easier to handle when in hard driven work.
I finally had to act when he one of this turns in the trailer and I realised it was only time until it a human got hurt .
He to just flipped it was in his head he had been part of a big rescue as a youngster and I am prepared to bet he had been locked up somewhere .

 

[GoldenWillow]

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this LW.

I don't have any experience with driving but I have had a cob that developed epilepsy which was later discovered to be caused by a brain tumour. How it affected him was that he would twitch with his front legs and straight away crumple and go down, then seem vacant for a while after. This happened during exercise, happened for the first time being ridden, he was never ridden again, and during lunging when the vet was assessing him. Also happened at rest.

 

[rara007]

I viewed a pony yesterday that did almost exactly the same as him, but this one got away, tipped the carriage, jumped a fence, and went beserk. How the driver walked away with only minor injuries I will never know. Turns out there has been a prior accident and something happened which set him off again. Very, very similar and very weird and actually much more scary to be a bystander.
(

Honestly, I know it’s tempting to clutch at straws but common things are common. Horses spooking is common. Horses being terrified beyond consolation when they feel trapped is common. Horses deciding to remove their carriage is common when in such a state. Clinically well horses with no recent head trauma having a seizure whilst remaining conscious with no post ictal phase midway through mid intensisity exercise is beyond rare. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I am by no means saying he should drive again but I think you’d be surprised at the number of successful sports driving animals who have had similar at one point in their training. I’m lucky all my carriages can cope with a spin (and a rear spin and pretty good at a buck spin!) and I’ve never had solid shafts that wouldn’t bend but by the grace of god go us each time we chose to put to. As much as something experienced you don’t know the full history now you’ve had this scare so early on in your Driving I really wouldn’t consider something unschooled yet. There’s quite a lot out there at the moment fortunately

 

[Leo Walker]

I keep going over and over this. I dont think so though. It was such a specific set of circumstances, and I've been speaking to a few people who have been through similar and they all went on to be ridden with no issues. If there is even the slightest chance that it is a seizure though then he will be PTS straight away. Just heading off now to see the vet and see what she thinks.

Actually Aus, do you think it would be worth a chat with your super vet? I've never forgotten what she did for me and Frankie.

 

[Auslander]

I keep going over and over this. I dont think so though. It was such a specific set of circumstances, and I've been speaking to a few people who have been through similar and they all went on to be ridden with no issues. If there is even the slightest chance that it is a seizure though then he will be PTS straight away. Just heading off now to see the vet and see what she thinks.

Actually Aus, do you think it would be worth a chat with your super vet? I've never forgotten what she did for me and Frankie.

Sure she'd be happy to chat, if you think it would help

 

[Leo Walker]

Honestly, I know it’s tempting to clutch at straws but common things are common. Horses spooking is common. Horses being terrified beyond consolation when they feel trapped is common. Horses deciding to remove their carriage is common when in such a state. Clinically well horses with no recent head trauma having a seizure whilst remaining conscious with no post ictal phase midway through mid intensisity exercise is beyond rare. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I am by no means saying he should drive again but I think you’d be surprised at the number of successful sports driving animals who have had similar at one point in their training. I’m lucky all my carriages can cope with a spin (and a rear spin and pretty good at a buck spin!) and I’ve never had solid shafts that wouldn’t bend but by the grace of god go us each time we chose to put to. As much as something experienced you don’t know the full history now you’ve had this scare so early on in your Driving I really wouldn’t consider something unschooled yet. There’s quite a lot out there at the moment fortunately

Thank you. I value your input. I feel like my head is spinning trying to do the right thing for him.

 

[Goldenstar]

Honestly, I know it’s tempting to clutch at straws but common things are common. Horses spooking is common. Horses being terrified beyond consolation when they feel trapped is common. Horses deciding to remove their carriage is common when in such a state. Clinically well horses with no recent head trauma having a seizure whilst remaining conscious with no post ictal phase midway through mid intensisity exercise is beyond rare. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I am by no means saying he should drive again but I think you’d be surprised at the number of successful sports driving animals who have had similar at one point in their training. I’m lucky all my carriages can cope with a spin (and a rear spin and pretty good at a buck spin!) and I’ve never had solid shafts that wouldn’t bend but by the grace of god go us each time we chose to put to. As much as something experienced you don’t know the full history now you’ve had this scare so early on in your Driving I really wouldn’t consider something unschooled yet. There’s quite a lot out there at the moment fortunately

I would not consider a green horse yet either .
I know exactly how hard it is to find the right horse you really need an older horse if you could find an older pony looking for a new home because it’s brought it’s driver on to the stage where they need a faster one for driving trails at the more competitive levels that would be perfect .

 

[Shady]

Leo, i have just caught up with this and i am so , so , gutted for you both. I'm not going to comment on why Leo did what he did, it's happened and you now have to make the correct choice for where you go from here. I will say that my SIL had an ex police horse who needed to be kept in a high level of work or he was an absolute pig, when he developed arthritis in his knees she decided to give him a chance at grass livery and if it didn't work she would pts. He went to an amazing farm in Devon as part of a similar sized/breed type herd in 30 acre fields and he absolutely thrived there and is still there now 13 years later. I know there would be a financial impact with a choice like this and may not be viable long term but it shows that it can work if it is something you are thinking about doing. xxxxxxxxxx

 

[Ddraig_wen]

Very sorry to hear what happened.. I had a horse who came to me after multiple bolting incidents in a cart, the owner's plan was to get him riding so that she could keep him and still have fun. His first incident in a cart he bolted, not very far but enough to scare his owner who was not an experienced driver. There were a couple of incidents further down the line. The final incident was when an experienced driver took him out with the owner, he blind bolted going straight over a cross roads up a bank and flipping the cart. He kept going up an upturned cart.

Fast forward about 8 months and he came to be ridden. He kept an invisible trigger switch. There was no specific set of circumstances that would set him off and the reaction was different each time. He would go for months behaving perfectly and then boom. Unreasonable reaction with no trigger and then back to normal. One incident involved him going vertical in a field he'd hacked through 4 times a week for months. He went vertical and came over backwards. Another incident at walk months later, suddenly going from the school to the yard full on bronking fit. He was declared fit and pain free by the vet, tack fit, teeth ok no reason for the random explosions. There were a few minor incidents with a few months in between other than these. He then behaved for almost a year. The owner was riding him in the indoor one night another livery found her wandering round the yard with a broken collar bone, horse drenched in sweat and saddle with huge scrapes down one side.
Once again I was asked to ride him - he threw himself sideways into a 5 bar gate.

 

[touchstone]

So sorry to hear about your awful experience, funnily enough my dad had exactly the same experience with a cob bought from travellers. He was a well behaved horse until something went 'wrong' when he would completely panic, it was evident that he had been beaten quite badly when something happened, so of course he panicked more. Dad had been driving when something caught in the carriage wheel making a noise and the poor horse completely freaked, he bolted and was only stopped by wedging the carriage in a stone gateway on someones drive. He was never driven again but did make a ridden pony if I remember rightly.
It just highlights how easily things can go wrong when driving, and the importance of having a horse that you trust completely. I hope you can be at peace with the decision not to drive Leo again, it just isn't worth the potential risk with a horse that can panic so badly. You are doing the right thing. Thinking of you and Leo. x

 

[tankgirl1]

Dolly was dangerous driven, she once spooked in traffic and started backing up into the other lane. Thankfully I had someone horsey with me who jumped off the cart and got her head. As you know I am a very novice driver, and although I probably could have got professional help and worked her through it I chose not to. She is however a brilliant ridden pony out hacking, as bombproof as they can be, and has taught my son to ride, so there is hope! xx

 

[tankgirl1]

So sorry to hear about your awful experience, funnily enough my dad had exactly the same experience with a cob bought from travellers. He was a well behaved horse until something went 'wrong' when he would completely panic, it was evident that he had been beaten quite badly when something happened, so of course he panicked more. Dad had been driving when something caught in the carriage wheel making a noise and the poor horse completely freaked, he bolted and was only stopped by wedging the carriage in a stone gateway on someones drive. He was never driven again but did make a ridden pony if I remember rightly.
It just highlights how easily things can go wrong when driving, and the importance of having a horse that you trust completely. I hope you can be at peace with the decision not to drive Leo again, it just isn't worth the potential risk with a horse that can panic so badly. You are doing the right thing. Thinking of you and Leo. x

Funnily enough my pony who I don't drive anymore as she was dangerous also came from travellers. She is a brilliant happy hacker though xx

 

[Lammy]

I know. I am very firmly of the opinion that PTS is an option. He is so happy at the minute though. As soon as it was over he was back to normal. The problem is he is a sod if hes not worked or I would just keep him where he is.

I'm definitely not leaving him miserable in a field so I dont have to face up to it. He did live out for a short while and was fine, it was in a big field with young geldings. He spent all day playing and was fine. If I could find him a home nannying youngstock he would love it, but not sure that will happen! He just needs to be keep occupied or he makes his own fun.

If it helps both Knights farm (Walgrave) and Caroline (Hannington) have settled retired herds you could try if it came to it. Knights also have a lot of youngstock they might be happy to have a nanny for?

 

[Follysmum]

We have a horse that we retired as a youngster (7yrs old ) due to him having massive outbursts and being completely dangerous to ride . We did find out from a previous owner he had previous of These outbursts that used to come from no where and you never had a warning, he put a few people in hospital ( nice that someone passed the problem on ) . After having spent a lot of money trying to get to the bottom of his behaviour and everything coming back to a blank we decided ( vets and us ) that in the interest of him and our safety he wasn’t to be ridden ever again. He is safe on the floor to be handled so we decided he could nanny outlet youngsters in the field and just be a companion. He has been like this for 10yrs now and is quite happy. It really is not worth the risk when you have an unpredictable horse, we would definitely pts if he had been a danger to handle . We also had the offer of so many people that could apparently sort him out , I could not of guaranteed his future and run the risk of him being passed around and hurting someone so he stays with us .

 

[Goldenstar]

Years ago I put to sleep a homebred three year old who was prone to irrational aggressive outbursts as we worked towards the backing process she attacked while I was gently brushing her ,knocking me out .I came round on the yard having somehow removed myself from her stable .
I decided life’s too short for owning an issue like that and I PTS two days later .
If you had bought her you would have said she had some sort of terrible experiance in her past but she had not .

 

[Chinchilla]

Years ago I put to sleep a homebred three year old who was prone to irrational aggressive outbursts as we worked towards the backing process she attacked while I was gently brushing her ,knocking me out .I came round on the yard having somehow removed myself from her stable .
I decided life’s too short for owning an issue like that and I PTS two days later .
If you had bought her you would have said she had some sort of terrible experiance in her past but she had not .

Did you ever have a PM done to find out why she had the outbursts?

 

[Goldenstar]

Did you ever have a PM done to find out why she had the outbursts?

Nope just rang the kennels and the huntsman got the job done .

 

[antigone]

We have a horse that we retired as a youngster (7yrs old ) due to him having massive outbursts and being completely dangerous to ride . We did find out from a previous owner he had previous of These outbursts that used to come from no where and you never had a warning, he put a few people in hospital ( nice that someone passed the problem on ) . After having spent a lot of money trying to get to the bottom of his behaviour and everything coming back to a blank we decided ( vets and us ) that in the interest of him and our safety he wasn’t to be ridden ever again. He is safe on the floor to be handled so we decided he could nanny outlet youngsters in the field and just be a companion. He has been like this for 10yrs now and is quite happy. It really is not worth the risk when you have an unpredictable horse, we would definitely pts if he had been a danger to handle . We also had the offer of so many people that could apparently sort him out , I could not of guaranteed his future and run the risk of him being passed around and hurting someone so he stays with us .

What a lucky horse to have ended up with you. Well done for doing right by him.

 

[Follysmum]

What a lucky horse to have ended up with you. Well done for doing right by him.

Thankyou that’s very kind, we have had mixed opinions from people over the years, most say we are too soft and should shoot him. Our opinion is that we took him on and we are responsible to do the best for him, just because he’s not safe to ride doesn’t mean he deserves to die .

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Thankyou that’s very kind, we have had mixed opinions from people over the years, most say we are too soft and should shoot him. Our opinion is that we took him on and we are responsible to do the best for him, just because he’s not safe to ride doesn’t mean he deserves to die .

Ok he might not be being ridden but he still has a job - as a nanny! The right horse putting the right manners into youngsters is far far more valuable than any horse you could ride! I have done the same as you and I have some fully retired horses that will never go anywhere. I took them on. They are my responsibility.

 

[Leo Walker]

Hes not going to a ridden home. He would do it and probably be fine with a quiet competent rider but those riders dont want a middle aged 14.2hh cob that needs a light weight rider with the lameness history he does. I'm also not prepared to put him through it. The thought of different people trying him worries me as he is so sensitive ridden wise it would blow his brains.

I've got a couple of possibilities that might work for him to be turned away, but I am thinking more and more about having him PTS. My friend who is very fluffy messaged me yesterday begging me not to chuck him in a field. I was about to get very angry expecting her to be being fluffy about it, when she said she thought he should be PTS rather than face a future he would hate.

I adore him and owe him so much and it feels increasingly like I might owe it to him to have him PTS in a place hes comfortable and happy rather than risk upsetting him and then having to do it anyway. I just dont know if I can though. Things have been pretty horrible for a long time now and hes whats kept me going. I'm worried that the fall out from having him PTS will be the final straw that breaks me

 

[MyBoyChe]

LW, I would say quite the opposite. You should take a huge amount of consolation and pride from having given him a fabulous home, every chance to be a happy horse and when it hasnt worked out you have taken the absolute best course of action for him. He will never be passed around or know unkindness again, how good is that. I can understand how devastated you must be, but putting him first and making sure he is safe are reasons to be very proud and feel good about yourself in my book. You will not let it break you, you will go forward with your head held high and a new horse will be very lucky to wander into your life

 

[Pearlsasinger]

LW, I would say quite the opposite. You should take a huge amount of consolation and pride from having given him a fabulous home, every chance to be a happy horse and when it hasnt worked out you have taken the absolute best course of action for him. He will never be passed around or know unkindness again, how good is that. I can understand how devastated you must be, but putting him first and making sure he is safe are reasons to be very proud and feel good about yourself in my book. You will not let it break you, you will go forward with your head held high and a new horse will be very lucky to wander into your life

I couldn't have put it better myself!
It will be sad, you will be sad but you will know that you have done the best for him that you could because you didn't want him to suffer.

 

[Rowreach]

I couldn't have put it better myself!
It will be sad, you will be sad but you will know that you have done the best for him that you could because you didn't want him to suffer.

Absolutely x

 

[Goldenstar]

I would completely understand why your mind is running in that direction .
Be kind to yourself and take a little time to settle and think it all through .

 

[katastrophykat]

I’ll put my three pennies worth in here rather than on FB, V, and say to take time to listen to Goldenstar, Rara and Pennyturner.
My accident last year was entirely my fault. Gunner didn’t put a foot out of place throughout the situation, despite being so sore and the only horse out on the course while his best buddy was waiting for him back at the wagon. He didn’t run away, he didn’t freak out despite a carriage overturned and a shaft crushing his hock every stride he took.
The moment that my cast was off and an air cast was on, I put him back too. With trusted friends and extra bodies on the ground, none of which were needed. He is the same horse now (with a little added scar tissue on three out of four legs!) that he was then, and the only reason that he hasn’t competed this year is me- I was somewhat more broken than he was!
But. The accident has changed the way that I think. It’s made me more aware of the risk and more importantly the outcome. I was two weeks in a hospital 100 miles from home with a toddler and no job. No income and no way of getting a job as I couldn’t leave the house without a wheelchair for months. I’m three operations in and I don’t dare go back about the vast amounts of swelling in the ankle now because I suspect that they need more operations and I’m finally in a job that I love and that can pay for my home and my child- and my ponies!

What I’m trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that although I will go back to competition- not before I sort out my carriage, fitness and head a little more- I suspect that it’ll be a long time, if ever, that I can really get my head back into it and be truly competitive. Accidents with horses can mess up your head, sometimes more than your body and there are times when you have to sit down and decide where your highest risk factor comes from and then mitigate that risk for your own sake.
FWIW, If I was you, i wouldn’t be playing with anything young/unschooled/unknown at this point.

And yes- I have just broken my three year old to drive! I think we’re all mad.

 

[honetpot]

LW, I would say quite the opposite. You should take a huge amount of consolation and pride from having given him a fabulous home, every chance to be a happy horse and when it hasnt worked out you have taken the absolute best course of action for him. He will never be passed around or know unkindness again, how good is that. I can understand how devastated you must be, but putting him first and making sure he is safe are reasons to be very proud and feel good about yourself in my book. You will not let it break you, you will go forward with your head held high and a new horse will be very lucky to wander into your life

Dear Leo I would absolutely agree with this. Over the last few years I have had to have the knacker or the vet out six times, some planned and some unplanned and although I miss them now as much as the day it was done I have never regretted it. You will know that no one will ever try to sort him out and have complete control.
Let the dust settle. My attitude has always been that letting go gives you the opportunity to give something else a good settled home, a loss for you but what could be a life changing gain for them.