Lets justify Hunting for sport!:)

[Keimanp]

AnaV

From a very quick look on Wikipedia regarding vegetarianism around between 3 and 11% of the population of the UK consider themselves to be partially or completely vegetarian. That would suggest that 90%of the UK population eat meat and choose to deny an animal its life for their pleasure (we don't need to eat meat, we can live healthily without it).

In addition we keep Cat's, Dogs and a variety of other pets that 'deny other animals their lives'.

Death is a large part of life, it is natural and normal and not something that should not occur (no one can prevent it).

I consider my pet cat to be fairly evil when it comes to the tormenting and playing with her prey around 25% of her kills are to eat and 75% enjoyment. She kills for fun, I can't stop her from hunting, nor should I, she is acting on her natural instincts.

These are by no means 'excuses' but reasons,

I have no problem with rabbits being killed and on a number of occasions I have requested that the local rabbiter come and remove the exploding population. The reason being they are in my horses fields, I don't want to go down to find my horse has broken his leg. The neighbouring farmer has lost animals through injury relating to rabbit holes and rabbits scratching’s. Provided they stay within the ditch bank and the small woodland I don't mind them being there.

As for Badgers I don't have any personal experience in respect for a need to reduce numbers or remove complete sets, but I can understand and appreciate the economic reasons for culling them. If it was as easy as you suggest to go and inoculate them so they do not have an effect on the livelihood of individuals, why are no charitable organisations raising funds and assisting these people at risk of loosing their income rather than simply trying to block a cull?

I know of several areas where Badgers are protected and additional land has been set aside for them to use by farmers.

Re-introduction of the wolf into to other parts of the world may well have been successful however the areas in which it is are likely to be more sparsely populated and a completely different agricultural set up for providing for the population. As you agree that the introduction of wolves into the UK is not a reasonable nor practical option.

Which out of the options available for fox control is most suited and most natural for the rural landscape of the UK? (I would like you to answer this question on the grounds that foxes should be controlled, whether or not you believe they should be controlled)

 

[Littlelegs]

Watching 'the fox & the hound' whilst at that sentimental stage of drunkenness is clearly not the gateway to rational discussion.

 

[_GG_]

Keimanp the issue you have raised about if the reintroduction of wolves was overseen they would struggle to adapt to the present environment is very much true. As I am sure however, you are aware places in different parts of the world where the human population overlaps with that of another predatory animal such as Wolf, Bear or Tiger they keep optimism high in order to cope.
I do not think that we should abolish technology that would be like saying we should go back to being cave men. My arguement is what gives someone the right to deny any animal its life, be it a healthy one for instance?
One of your fellow hunters told me on this thread they do mostly kill healthy foxes and I am questioning why we should have authority to.

Does anyone have an excuse up their sleeve why people should be allowed to kill rabbits and badgers aswell?

My answers do not seem to register with others such as NancyKitt for she clearly knows not of all the cruelty inflicted by people and gives an overall portrayal of mankind with a backside beaming radiant sunlight.

Wow. In the other parts of the world you hold in such high regard, those predatory animals will be killed if they start getting too close to humans, so rose tinted glasses are not very realistic.

I have to take you to task on believing that we have cause global warming. Have we helped, sure...are we the biggest reason we have a gaping hole in the ozone layer? No!

You don't believe we should be managing the mess we have made, but you're so much more interested in blame and judgement that you can't be bothered to learn the truth.

The world is full of geothermal activity that produces more CO2 than we humans could manage if we tried. A volcano eruption is more damaging in 1 hour than we can be in years.

Don't believe me? Study the history of earth. It has been through many cycles of heating up and cooling down. We are just in one of those cycles...it will happen without our help, some of our choices have just made a contribution that's all.

Stop being so young about this subject.

Do I like the idea of foxes being killed by hounds? No. Do I think there is a more humane alternative? He'll no.

Why do it in the first place? Because we messed up and now the good and responsible among us have to do the hard job of making that right. People like you with such a closed attitude would not do this work and the environment would be damaged beyond recognition through the fast spreading of disease and breakdown of the natural food chain.

Grow up and smell the roses. Hunting may not be nice, but it is responsible and thank god there are still responsible people around to protect what you obviously care so much about.

 

[_GG_]

AnaV

From a very quick look on Wikipedia regarding vegetarianism around between 3 and 11% of the population of the UK consider themselves to be partially or completely vegetarian. That would suggest that 90%of the UK population eat meat and choose to deny an animal its life for their pleasure (we don't need to eat meat, we can live healthily without it).

In addition we keep Cat's, Dogs and a variety of other pets that 'deny other animals their lives'.

Death is a large part of life, it is natural and normal and not something that should not occur (no one can prevent it).

I consider my pet cat to be fairly evil when it comes to the tormenting and playing with her prey around 25% of her kills are to eat and 75% enjoyment. She kills for fun, I can't stop her from hunting, nor should I, she is acting on her natural instincts.

These are by no means 'excuses' but reasons,

I have no problem with rabbits being killed and on a number of occasions I have requested that the local rabbiter come and remove the exploding population. The reason being they are in my horses fields, I don't want to go down to find my horse has broken his leg. The neighbouring farmer has lost animals through injury relating to rabbit holes and rabbits scratching’s. Provided they stay within the ditch bank and the small woodland I don't mind them being there.

As for Badgers I don't have any personal experience in respect for a need to reduce numbers or remove complete sets, but I can understand and appreciate the economic reasons for culling them. If it was as easy as you suggest to go and inoculate them so they do not have an effect on the livelihood of individuals, why are no charitable organisations raising funds and assisting these people at risk of loosing their income rather than simply trying to block a cull?

I know of several areas where Badgers are protected and additional land has been set aside for them to use by farmers.

Re-introduction of the wolf into to other parts of the world may well have been successful however the areas in which it is are likely to be more sparsely populated and a completely different agricultural set up for providing for the population. As you agree that the introduction of wolves into the UK is not a reasonable nor practical option.

Which out of the options available for fox control is most suited and most natural for the rural landscape of the UK? (I would like you to answer this question on the grounds that foxes should be controlled, whether or not you believe they should be controlled)

AnaV...

If we can live perfectly healthily without meat, why the need for careful dietary planning to ensure again deficiencies? If we were that concerned, we wouldn't fly the planes or fuel the ships that carry so many foreign foods into this country that allow vegetarians the variety needed to be healthy.

Also, if we don't need meat, why did a famous vegetarian nutritionist and tv presenter go back to eating meat when trying for a baby and through pregnancy and breast feeding, quoting that there were no substitutes for meat in a vegetarian diet. She was happy to sacrifice herself, but not for her child so she ate meat for that period.

I am not pro or anti vegetarian....I am just realistic and base my opinions on fact, not emotion! We are animals and we are omnivorous. Therefore we kill and eat other animals to make up part of our diet. Just like wolves do and other predators do. You don't seem to have a problem with them being animals! At least we kill humanely!

 

[bubbilygum]

Rabbits
myxomatosis
over population
ruining crops
to eat

Badgers no

The amount of ill, tatty rabbits I see in the countryside/beside roads is saddening. I wish more were killed humanely than left to die a horrible, slow and painful death. Rabbits breed at a rate that is simply impossible to sustain.

I saw a lady walking a Weimaraner last month that had a rabbit in its mouth - she was very embarrassed but this rabbit clearly was a tatty old thing and the dog probably did what most people wouldn't have the decency to do by ending its life quickly and humanely.

 

[JanetGeorge]

But Kelmamp, apparently all we've got to do is to make this country more akin to 'somewhere like Australia' and everything will be fine! (The fact that the fox is not indigenous to Australia, as far as I know, is by the by).

Sadly, the fox is a major pest in Australia - and while there are a number of foxhunts, they can't begin to even make a dint in numbers locally. So - how are they controlled in Australia? Lamping is the main method and I did a LOT f it when I was working in North-west NSW. My best tally was 50 foxes in ONE night - all cleanly shot with a rifle - at night! I WAS quite proud of that as I used 50 shells! Not one wounding. But - of course - we used BIG rifles (.303s) You would NOT get a licence for anything above a .222 in this country for fox shooting - and in some areas, the police will oppose anything above a .22 for fox shooting! Even a crack shot CANNOT guarantee a clean kill with a .22! On the same night, my shooting companions got 43 and 47 foxes - the aim there isn't control - it's extermination! And on many stations, snaring, shotgun shooting and poisoning are also heavily used (none of which is in the slightest bit 'humane'!

Funnily enough, the fox isn't quite so much of a problem in Northern Australia - because of the high number of dingos!

 

[Nancykitt]

Fascinating, Janet. I knew that the fox was a big pest in Australia but am I right in saying that it was introduced at some stage rather than being indigenous? (Not that it matters a great deal now, I suppose, I'm just interested...)

That is an amazing tally of foxes in one night, even with a large bore rifle! My neighbour applied for a firearms license stating that he needed it to shoot foxes and was told that his limit was a .223, which I'm not convinced is ideal but no chance of anything larger unless he gets into deer stalking.

 

[Simsar]

I believe that foxes were introduced in the 1800's in Australia for the purpose of hunting.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I believe that foxes were introduced in the 1800's in Australia for the purpose of hunting.

You're right - and it was the stupidest bloody thing ever done in the name of hunting!!

But then you have to consider the 'types' that travelled to Australia in those early days - whether military (to guard the convicts) or settlers. It was a great place to send people you wanted out of the way - like the 2nd sons who were getting all the local girls pregnant, or the army captains who were 'playing up' with their senior officers' wives! The convicts were the BEST of the early settlers!

I suppose at least the foxes distracted some of the ratbags from Aborigine hunting!!

 

[Springy]

I suppose at least the foxes distracted some of the ratbags from Aborigine hunting!!

 

[Littlelegs]

GG, I disagree that in first world countries its difficult to be healthy & vegetarian. My diet isn't a carefully balanced one, nor do I have supplements or tablets. And I successfully conceived, & had a healthy pregnancy, birth & breastfed on the same diet. Although I do eat some meat (chicken & occasionally pig products) its such a small % of my food intake it makes no difference, & my usual vege meals are actually far more healthy & balanced, without much effort. Maybe once a month I'll eat chippy battered cod or seafood. My child also thrives on the same diet. I've been aneamic (or borderline) since my teens, not diet related, but obviously diet can help rectify my bodies inefficiency. And despite what most people think, spinach, breakfast cereals are actually higher in iron than a portion of red meat. (the fact I would rather eat carbs than spinach & cereal etc is responsible for my levels staying low, rather than lack of red meat). Interestingly, during pregnancy when I made a normal effort to eat a balanced diet, rather than white starch, cheese & junk food my iron levels were the highest they've ever been. And tbh, most vegetarians I know eat like me, they aren't careful diet planners or users of pills & supplements. And at no point in pregnancy did any professional even hint more meat would be a good idea.
Now I'm not judging those who eat meat regularly, but I maintain the opinion that same as when I do, its for no reason but pleasure. Also, producing non meat food has a higher yield than raising meat in terms of land, so we would manage with far less imports if everyone was fully vegetarian. I'm not saying we should do btw, just that all that trouble is taken purely for pleasure, not survival.

 

[JanetGeorge]

That is an amazing tally of foxes in one night, even with a large bore rifle! My neighbour applied for a firearms license stating that he needed it to shoot foxes and was told that his limit was a .223, which I'm not convinced is ideal but no chance of anything larger unless he gets into deer stalking.

The old boy who ran the station HATED foxes with a passion - but only allowed them to be shot with a .303 - and only after you'd PROVED you could shoot cleanly by polishing off large numbers of rabbits with a .22! He doled out shells grudgingly - and counted them back in - and woe betide you if you didn't have the foxes to match the missing shells! 60 years of sheep farming had taught him that wounded/infirm foxes were the ones who camped around the lambing fields! He used to use poison (1080 and strychnine are still legal for fox control in most states!) but lost a much-loved collie to a 1080 bait! Everything else had too high a risk of injured foxes.

My father taught me to shoot when I was about 10 - and I had a good eye! In their eyes I was a 'city girl' (I was there to do polo ponies) so they made me jump through far more hoops to PROVE I could shoot!

 

[Vulpinator]

[QUOTE=AnaV;
I consider my pet cat to be fairly evil when it comes to the tormenting and playing with her prey around 25% of her kills are to eat and 75% enjoyment. She kills for fun,

I can't stop her from hunting, nor should I, she is acting on her natural instincts

AnaV......

Could some one please explain to me why If AnaV. thinks that we "Humans are the same as animals" as previously quoted by the author abov. Then why should she not want to stop her cats from hunting, but would us, we also have natural instincts well I do, AnaV, are you a human or some alien speices

 

[AnaV]

Keimanp- As GG has stated it is healthier especially during pregnancy to eat meat. I have do not have an issue with eating meat to survive for it is part of nature and all predatory animals kill for survival. A relative of mine learnt is was better to get some protein intake after being a vegetarian and having two children which were sickly. It is part of being a omnivore, we need a balanced diet to be healthy.

Yes, cats do kill for pleasure sometimes, they will quite often bring them back into your house too. Animals should have the equal right as a human to their own life. I diagree strongly with people chasing around animals as if they do not have the right to live. Not only foxes however, deer, rabbits and badger, all animals which are hunted. No that does not mean if an animal kills for pleasure we should be allowed to. That is just coming down to an lesser intelligent animals level. Due to us being at the top of the food chain for many reasons we should take higher ground.

Molasses what was that about you and the balance of nature? Funny how my great grandma had different views of bears in Caucaus. She loved and respected all animals and she had cows and free range chickens.

Farmers are the ones who inflict myxomatosis onto rabbits in this country. You speak of horses putting their feet in rabbit holes as if it is a daily occurence. Strange how being in the middle of nowhere on a 35 acre field not one of my 51 rescued horses put their foot in a rabbit hole. There were no hunts around us and farmers fields for on average 5 miles in each direction. It is horrible and unlucky if it happens. I have not had the misfortune at the Stud I work at either so it must be bad luck and unfortunatley we cannot wrap the world in cotton wool.

 

[Vulpinator]

The old boy who ran the station HATED foxes with a passion - but only allowed them to be shot with a .303 - and only after you'd PROVED you could shoot cleanly by polishing off large numbers of rabbits with a .22! He doled out shells grudgingly - and counted them back in - and woe betide you if you didn't have the foxes to match the missing shells! 60 years of sheep farming had taught him that wounded/infirm foxes were the ones who camped around the lambing fields! He used to use poison (1080 and strychnine are still legal for fox control in most states!) but lost a much-loved collie to a 1080 bait! Everything else had too high a risk of injured foxes.

My father taught me to shoot when I was about 10 - and I had a good eye! In their eyes I was a 'city girl' (I was there to do polo ponies) so they made me jump through far more hoops to PROVE I could shoot!

Janet I have shot thousands literally of foxes using a .222 same calibre as a 223 but different chamber and with most beneficial results the use of a 303 is some what outdated and the constable is probably looking at the terain to be shot over and has for once used some common sense.

 

[Vulpinator]

Keimanp- As GG has stated it is healthier especially during pregnancy to eat meat. I have do not have an issue with eating meat to survive for it is part of nature and all predatory animals kill for survival. A relative of mine learnt is was better to get some protein intake after being a vegetarian and having two children which were sickly. It is part of being a omnivore, we need a balanced diet to be healthy.

Yes, cats do kill for pleasure sometimes, they will quite often bring them back into your house too. Animals should have the equal right as a human to their own life. I diagree strongly with people chasing around animals as if they do not have the right to live. Not only foxes however, deer, rabbits and badger, all animals which are hunted. No that does not mean if an animal kills for pleasure we should be allowed to. That is just coming down to an lesser intelligent animals level. Due to us being at the top of the food chain for many reasons we should take higher ground.

Molasses what was that about you and the balance of nature? Funny how my great grandma had different views of bears in Caucaus. She loved and respected all animals and she had cows and free range chickens.

Farmers are the ones who inflict myxomatosis onto rabbits in this country. You speak of horses putting their feet in rabbit holes as if it is a daily occurence. Strange how being in the middle of nowhere on a 35 acre field not one of my 51 rescued horses put their foot in a rabbit hole. There were no hunts around us and farmers fields for on average 5 miles in each direction. It is horrible and unlucky if it happens. I have not had the misfortune at the Stud I work at either so it must be bad luck and unfortunatley we cannot wrap the world in cotton wool.

AnaV any chance you could directly answer my post both about the responibility/ Rights issue and about the hunting instincts of man and animal your the one saying we are the same so why are we to be treated differently you cant have it both ways

 

[happyhunter123]

No that does not mean if an animal kills for pleasure we should be allowed to. That is just coming down to an lesser intelligent animals level. Due to us being at the top of the food chain for many reasons we should take higher ground.

I thought that you said that we were equal to animals?

 

[Keimanp]

Keimanp- As GG has stated it is healthier especially during pregnancy to eat meat. .....

Farmers are the ones who inflict myxomatosis onto rabbits in this country.

....You speak of horses putting their feet in rabbit holes as if it is a daily occurence.

AnaV - As a man I can safely say that I have no requirment to eat meat during pregnancy and would suggest that would be the same for 50% of the 90% I suggested earlier. I eat meat because I enjoy it. I would also suggest that the vast majority of time of a womans life is not during pregnancy which would suggest less meat would be required to be consumed. I will also refer you to The_little_angels post.

I am unaware of any farmers who currently inflict myxomatosis onto rabbits in this country. I believe it was initially spread by farmers after it was illegally imported but it has long since ceased in being actively spread. It was something that occurred in my grand parents/parents generation.

I quite like my horses and although the risk may be considered small or low I'm not going to risk it. The rabbits aren't erradicated but they are controlled. I don't want to reduce them in number from the ditch or woodland areas as we have a couple of pairs of nesting barn owls and a pair of Tawny owls and we have a fox den across the other field but even these mouths are unable to keep up with the population growth of the rabbits.

It appears you have missed answering a direct question to yourself in my previous post?

Although this thread has gone on I have learnt something new as I think have many others, and overall I think the thread has mostly improved the perception of hunting.

 

[bubbilygum]

Although this thread has gone on I have learnt something new as I think have many others, and overall I think the thread has mostly improved the perception of hunting.

I agree - the arguments for hunting foxes put forward here are much more sensible than those against. I have always been pretty firmly on the fence when it comes to fox hunting, but I think, actually, wasn't such a wuss I would even consider going out hunting next season.

I don't think this thread has gone the way AnaV hoped it would.

 

[bubbilygum]

GG, I disagree that in first world countries its difficult to be healthy & vegetarian. My diet isn't a carefully balanced one, nor do I have supplements or tablets. And I successfully conceived, & had a healthy pregnancy, birth & breastfed on the same diet. Although I do eat some meat (chicken & occasionally pig products) its such a small % of my food intake it makes no difference, & my usual vege meals are actually far more healthy & balanced, without much effort. Maybe once a month I'll eat chippy battered cod or seafood. My child also thrives on the same diet. I've been aneamic (or borderline) since my teens, not diet related, but obviously diet can help rectify my bodies inefficiency. And despite what most people think, spinach, breakfast cereals are actually higher in iron than a portion of red meat. (the fact I would rather eat carbs than spinach & cereal etc is responsible for my levels staying low, rather than lack of red meat). Interestingly, during pregnancy when I made a normal effort to eat a balanced diet, rather than white starch, cheese & junk food my iron levels were the highest they've ever been. And tbh, most vegetarians I know eat like me, they aren't careful diet planners or users of pills & supplements. And at no point in pregnancy did any professional even hint more meat would be a good idea.
Now I'm not judging those who eat meat regularly, but I maintain the opinion that same as when I do, its for no reason but pleasure. Also, producing non meat food has a higher yield than raising meat in terms of land, so we would manage with far less imports if everyone was fully vegetarian. I'm not saying we should do btw, just that all that trouble is taken purely for pleasure, not survival.

^ This. Protein can be found in many sources other than meat, as can iron.

A vegetarian with a balanced diet will be getting more nutrients/substanance than a meat eater with a poor diet.

 

[AengusOg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=rlVHhVdbXzQ&feature=endscreen

 

[Molasses]

Molasses what was that about you and the balance of nature? Funny how my great grandma had different views of bears in Caucaus. She loved and respected all animals and she had cows and free range chickens.

Wow! cows and chickens! You're right! Hilarious

Where did you say??

 

[JanetGeorge]

Janet I have shot thousands literally of foxes using a .222 same calibre as a 223 but different chamber and with most beneficial results the use of a 303 is some what outdated and the constable is probably looking at the terain to be shot over and has for once used some common sense.

A .222 is fine in the UK - foxes aren't as easily freaked. They're used to lights, and vehicles and people. If they're not close enough, you can squeak them up.

On a big station in the outback, the foxes see very little of lights or vehicles - particularly at night. The odd person they see is usually on a horse - and anything out of the ordinary, they're off! You have to be able to shoot from a fair distance - and a .222 couldn't pack enough whack for a certain kill. There's probably a better rifle being used now in the outback - I was there 45 years ago!

 

[_GG_]

GG, I disagree that in first world countries its difficult to be healthy & vegetarian. My diet isn't a carefully balanced one, nor do I have supplements or tablets. And I successfully conceived, & had a healthy pregnancy, birth & breastfed on the same diet. Although I do eat some meat (chicken & occasionally pig products) its such a small % of my food intake it makes no difference, & my usual vege meals are actually far more healthy & balanced, without much effort. Maybe once a month I'll eat chippy battered cod or seafood. My child also thrives on the same diet. I've been aneamic (or borderline) since my teens, not diet related, but obviously diet can help rectify my bodies inefficiency. And despite what most people think, spinach, breakfast cereals are actually higher in iron than a portion of red meat. (the fact I would rather eat carbs than spinach & cereal etc is responsible for my levels staying low, rather than lack of red meat). Interestingly, during pregnancy when I made a normal effort to eat a balanced diet, rather than white starch, cheese & junk food my iron levels were the highest they've ever been. And tbh, most vegetarians I know eat like me, they aren't careful diet planners or users of pills & supplements. And at no point in pregnancy did any professional even hint more meat would be a good idea.
Now I'm not judging those who eat meat regularly, but I maintain the opinion that same as when I do, its for no reason but pleasure. Also, producing non meat food has a higher yield than raising meat in terms of land, so we would manage with far less imports if everyone was fully vegetarian. I'm not saying we should do btw, just that all that trouble is taken purely for pleasure, not survival.

^ This. Protein can be found in many sources other than meat, as can iron.

A vegetarian with a balanced diet will be getting more nutrients/substanance than a meat eater with a poor diet.

I didn't say at any point that in first world countries it is difficult to be healthy and vegetarian so I would appreciate not having words put in my mouth.

I was under the impression that the OP was making a point about vegetarianism being easy in terms of getting the right balance but also taking a moral stand on our impact on the environment.

My point was that if you only had access to the foods grown and able to be produced in this country, it would be much much harder to get a healthy vegetarian diet without the need for supplements.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to be vegetarian. I do however dislike being told we shouldn't eat meat. We were designed to eat everything.

Hope that is understood a little better.

 

[_GG_]

Keimanp- As GG has stated it is healthier especially during pregnancy to eat meat. I have do not have an issue with eating meat to survive for it is part of nature and all predatory animals kill for survival. A relative of mine learnt is was better to get some protein intake after being a vegetarian and having two children which were sickly. It is part of being a omnivore, we need a balanced diet to be healthy.

Yes, cats do kill for pleasure sometimes, they will quite often bring them back into your house too. Animals should have the equal right as a human to their own life. I diagree strongly with people chasing around animals as if they do not have the right to live. Not only foxes however, deer, rabbits and badger, all animals which are hunted. No that does not mean if an animal kills for pleasure we should be allowed to. That is just coming down to an lesser intelligent animals level. Due to us being at the top of the food chain for many reasons we should take higher ground.

Molasses what was that about you and the balance of nature? Funny how my great grandma had different views of bears in Caucaus. She loved and respected all animals and she had cows and free range chickens.

Farmers are the ones who inflict myxomatosis onto rabbits in this country. You speak of horses putting their feet in rabbit holes as if it is a daily occurence. Strange how being in the middle of nowhere on a 35 acre field not one of my 51 rescued horses put their foot in a rabbit hole. There were no hunts around us and farmers fields for on average 5 miles in each direction. It is horrible and unlucky if it happens. I have not had the misfortune at the Stud I work at either so it must be bad luck and unfortunatley we cannot wrap the world in cotton wool.

I totally agree about the rabbit hole thing. Did you know that actually, there were only 18 reported incidents with horses and rabbit holes in all of the uk in 2012. Compared to incidents involving poor stable management, it is pretty much insignificant!

 

[Littlelegs]

Fair enough GG, although it was me, rather than op that raised the point of meat eating. Ops argument is that its ok to kill for survival, but we otherwise have no rights to take an animals life, in response I voiced the opinion that an animal dying for us in the first world to eat is not survival, just for our enjoyment in eating it. Ops stance seemed to be that even in first world countries, meat is necessary for survival, so its ok to kill meat animals. And off topic but if we stopped producing as much meat in this country & concentrated solely on other protein sources, we could access a varied diet without foods grown only outside this country. Although I'm sure for many, including myself, that would be rather boring.

 

[_GG_]

Fair enough GG, although it was me, rather than op that raised the point of meat eating. Ops argument is that its ok to kill for survival, but we otherwise have no rights to take an animals life, in response I voiced the opinion that an animal dying for us in the first world to eat is not survival, just for our enjoyment in eating it. Ops stance seemed to be that even in first world countries, meat is necessary for survival, so its ok to kill meat animals. And off topic but if we stopped producing as much meat in this country & concentrated solely on other protein sources, we could access a varied diet without foods grown only outside this country. Although I'm sure for many, including myself, that would be rather boring.

No probs, I probably got confused with people quoting other people!

 

[Littlelegs]

Hadn't finished, I meant to add that I don't have any issues with raising animals for meat. My reluctance to eat it comes from not wanting to eat factory farmed meat & the high cost of ethically raised meat, hence eating it rarely. I actually think if the world became vegetarian many animals would become extinct & that would be sad to see the end of traditional, rather than intensive, farming & all that goes with it.

 

[_GG_]

Hadn't finished, I meant to add that I don't have any issues with raising animals for meat. My reluctance to eat it comes from not wanting to eat factory farmed meat & the high cost of ethically raised meat, hence eating it rarely. I actually think if the world became vegetarian many animals would become extinct & that would be sad to see the end of traditional, rather than intensive, farming & all that goes with it.

That makes a lot of sense! I don't eat any meat that I don't get locally and no where it is from and it doesn't cost any more because I go get it from the farms that produce it. Guess I am lucky that I can get everything that way within 6 miles of my house

 

[Littlelegs]

I can get lamb or beef reared locally, but I don't like either, & since local butcher closed its either trek miles away, or pay high prices.