Lightbulb moment

[Charrose77]

So sorry I'm on phone and missed this! And the bits about hocks and front feet...it ALL points to posture and compensatory movement patterns. I would strongly recommend you join the Celeste programme, you may be facing too much to achieve a turnaround but it will help at least some, you'll learn a ton too. If you want to drop.me a pm I can have a look back at my records, that day at Norwood was very unfortunate that we had way too much to do with me not far enough along in my training with the new brand. It was sad it led nowhere

I will join the Celeste programme. It’s something I had been looking at anyway. Those saddles were beautiful and so well made. Shame that it didn’t go anywhere but it was nice to meet you. Fern is now in a Lavinia Mitchell, both vet and physio very happy with her back. She is now treatable, prior to this the physio really struggled to treat her.

 

[sbloom]

But the behaviour I am dealing with doesn’t seem like pain to me.

Brain and body are almost one in the horse, Dan Wain talks about "boiling point" - everything in and outside of the horse, breeding, training, environment, pain, stress, contributes to the horse's ambient "temperature". If they run at 95 degrees you have no head room before they are triggered into a minor or major break down, mentally or physically, with the introduction of another factor.

Fix the body, fix the brain.

 

[Charrose77]

Brain and body are almost one in the horse, Dan Wain talks about "boiling point" - everything in and outside of the horse, breeding, training, environment, pain, stress, contributes to the horse's ambient "temperature". If they run at 95 degrees you have no head room before they are triggered into a minor or major break down, mentally or physically, with the introduction of another factor.

Fix the body, fix the brain.

Yep. I get that. This is a genuine question…..not be being an arse……how does that translate to the issue I am having in the school with the scary spot. Only one small area of the school (top end where they store the jumps and poles etc) take her a few metres away and she works well. Rounds soft over her back etc. I understand that she will be holding herself tense near the scary spot, but if her body was in constant pain, and we are talking pain not just her being tense, surely she wouldn’t be able to work so nicely away from that spot? That’s why I am looking at the behavioural side of things also. Definitely not ruling out pain. But another avenue to explore.

 

[sbloom]

I honestly believe that a lot of behavioural "work" masks underlying issues. Horses aren't naughty, they do get confused, they do shut down etc...but just because it's hard to explain things within our current understanding doesn't mean most stuff isn't physical, or at least a hangover from physical.issurs. You do have physical issues, injecting hocks periodically mean there are still physical issues.

Have a look at the stuff I share on FB, I've been more and more swung towards this approach.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Stress is real, so maybe the spooky corner is psychological. But if that was your only problem, you'd not be on here. You are describing unpredictable reactions, not one place she finds alarming that you could easily address or avoid.

 

[Charrose77]

I honestly believe that a lot of behavioural "work" masks underlying issues. Horses aren't naughty, they do get confused, they do shut down etc...but just because it's hard to explain things within our current understanding doesn't mean most stuff isn't physical, or at least a hangover from physical.issurs. You do have physical issues, injecting Hicks periodically mean there are still physical issues.

Have a look at the stuff I share on FB, I've been more and more swung towards this approach.

Thank you. Will definitely take a look

 

[Charrose77]

Thank you. Will definitely take a look

And for the record I absolutely agree. I don’t think she is being naughty. Not for one second have I ever thought that X

 

[Patterdale]

I’m sorry but I just cannot fathom owners like this. Your horse is screaming that it’s in pain, it has been diagnosed with multiple issues KNOWN to cause pain, and yet you are performing the most spectacular mental gymnastics to insist that your horse is just being ‘tricky,’ for mystery Other Reasons known only to itself.

Your horse is in pain. That’s why it’s not fun for you or it.

ETA I get that it’s crap. I’ve been there myself. But please listen to your horse.

 

[Dexter]

I’m sorry but I just cannot fathom owners like this. Your horse is screaming that it’s in pain, it has been diagnosed with multiple issues KNOWN to cause pain, and yet you are performing the most spectacular mental gymnastics to insist that your horse is just being ‘tricky,’ for mystery Other Reasons known only to itself.

Your horse is in pain. That’s why it’s not fun for you or it.

ETA I get that it’s crap. I’ve been there myself. But please listen to your horse.

This! And please don't join a groundwork program thinking it will be a miracle cure. I am very pro that sort of work, but every single trainer I have met insists that the horse is pain free before you start any work. I am actually shocked that someone I thought better of is suggesting that this is the solution for you. And yet another reason why people need in person training, not online.

 

[sbloom]

She has worked with the vets consistently to date, plus a physio, and has another physio coming out who will likely use BTMM as part of her treatment as it happens.

BTMM can be started with almost any horse, pain is not contraindicated, especially as we have already established how hard it is to establish if a horse is in pain, to vet diagnostic threshold level. For many horses exhibiting more than 8 signs of pain as per the Sue Dyson ethogram there is still nothing to be found by vets. There are few options at that point if you're contraindicating any form of groundwork.

With BTMM as long as the owner really watches reactions it is incredibly gentle, static to begin with, and can be part diagnostic, hitting a block means you seek vet help or similar. Not all groundwork is equal, she's not about to be trying shoulder in with a cavesson, trust me.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses have a spot they think is spooky ( there’s such a corner in my school) I think what happens is they cope with pain and get on with life but then you add in the haunted corner and the pain and the haunted corner are too much together so they show what we see as undesirable behaviour.
Likewise a parallel it’s a metre made of poles the horse jumps you leave it a metre but add a filler the horse stops the horse does not like fillers perhaps but he does he percieve the fence requires a greater jumping effort because of the filler and is that bigger jumping effort more painful .
Many horses live life with unrecognised pain .

I think the horses posture is very important but this far down the road after extremely
powerful drugs have been given and neck arthritis has been found on X-ray and the horse has foot pain its probably not going to give OP a functional comfortable horse to ride .
You reach a stage where it’s simply being unethical to continue it’s also dangerous for the rider .

 

[sbloom]

I think the horses posture is very important but this far down the road after extremely
powerful drugs have been given and neck arthritis has been found on X-ray and the horse has foot pain its probably not going to give OP a functional comfortable horse to ride .
You reach a stage where it’s simply being unethical to continue it’s also dangerous for the rider .

You may be right but the current vet and physio do not agree. I think there is more to be unwound before that is the only conclusion.

 

[Charrose77]

She has worked with the vets consistently to date, plus a physio, and has another physio coming out who will likely use BTMM as part of her treatment as it happens.

BTMM can be started with almost any horse, pain is not contraindicated, especially as we have already established how hard it is to establish if a horse is in pain, to vet diagnostic threshold level. For many horses exhibiting more than 8 signs of pain as per the Sue Dyson ethogram there is still nothing to be found by vets. There are few options at that point if you're contraindicating any form of groundwork.

With BTMM as long as the owner really watches reactions it is incredibly gentle, static to begin with, and can be part diagnostic, hitting a block means you seek vet help or similar. Not all groundwork is equal, she's not about to be trying shoulder in with a cavesson, trust me.

Thank you

 

[Goldenstar]

The other thing is vets make money by keeping going .
sometimes it’s ok as the owner to say sorry dangerous behaviour plus sore feet and bones changes in the neck that’s not a good use of resources and by that I mean money but also putting the horse through more .
This a not a happy horse .
Thats why I suggested a bone scan it’s not that stressful for horses and if it shows hot spots in many places then you really have an answer if it shows only what you know is there then that’s a good place to make a plan from .

You don’t win them all and sometimes the hardest thing to do is stop spending once you are started my horse like this turned out to have tumours on his bowel on PM, it all make sense at then.

 

[Charrose77]

The other thing is vets make money by keeping going .
sometimes it’s ok as the owner to say sorry dangerous behaviour plus sore feet and bones changes in the neck that’s not a good use of resources and by that I mean money but also putting the horse through more .
This a not a happy horse .
Thats why I suggested a bone scan it’s not that stressful for horses and if it shows hot spots in many places then you really have an answer if it shows only what you know is there then that’s a good place to make a plan from .

You don’t win them all and sometimes the hardest thing to do is stop spending once you are started my horse like this turned out to have tumours on his bowel on PM, it all make sense at then.

Thanks. Will book a bones scan

 

[Charrose77]

Horses have a spot they think is spooky ( there’s such a corner in my school) I think what happens is they cope with pain and get on with life but then you add in the haunted corner and the pain and the haunted corner are too much together so they show what we see as undesirable behaviour.
Likewise a parallel it’s a metre made of poles the horse jumps you leave it a metre but add a filler the horse stops the horse does not like fillers perhaps but he does he percieve the fence requires a greater jumping effort because of the filler and is that bigger jumping effort more painful .
Many horses live life with unrecognised pain .

I think the horses posture is very important but this far down the road after extremely
powerful drugs have been given and neck arthritis has been found on X-ray and the horse has foot pain its probably not going to give OP a functional comfortable horse to ride .
You reach a stage where it’s simply being unethical to continue it’s also dangerous for the rider .

I will be absolutely devastated if this is the stage we have reached. But I will also do the right thing by her.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

So sorry I'm on phone and missed this! And the bits about hocks and front feet...it ALL points to posture and compensatory movement patterns. I would strongly recommend you join the Celeste programme, you may be facing too much to achieve a turnaround but it will help at least some, you'll learn a ton too. If you want to drop.me a pm I can have a look back at my records, that day at Norwood was very unfortunate that we had way too much to do with me not far enough along in my training with the new brand. It was sad it led nowhere

I am continously baffled by your recommendations re the "Celeste programme" I wouldn't give that woman one cent of my money. Blows my mind that you support her and her programme, but to each their own.

Then again, I guess it's all apart of what's new, gimmicky, and the thoracic sling obsession.

This isn't against you personally, I'd say this to anyone pushing this programme. Not even as a last ditch effort in my book.

 

[Goldenstar]

I will be absolutely devastated if this is the stage we have reached. But I will also do the right thing by her.

You can’t make it right for all of them it’s heartbreaking but it is how it is.
There is nothing worse that lying in A and E thinking why did I keep going with that.
With every bit of experience I have from just short of sixty years of dealing with my horse obsession I tell you to don’t risk getting smashed up ,this horse is shouting stuff at you,don’t risk yourself further .

 

[Goldenstar]

I am continously baffled by your recommendations re the "Celeste programme" I wouldn't give that woman one cent of my money. Blows my mind that you support her and her programme, but to each their own.

Then again, I guess it's all apart of what's new, gimmicky, and the thoracic sling obsession.

This isn't against you personally, I'd say this to anyone pushing this programme. Not even as a last ditch effort in my book.

I know nothing about this programme so can’t comment but I do know that failure to develop the thoracic sling properly is at the root of many troubles talentEd uphill horses who find the balance easy get to worked through to quickly and end up using their joints to much before they have the muscle bulk they need .
The less talented more normal type horse struggles to get off its forehand and ends up stuck on its shoulder with its neck locked in position .

 

[Charrose77]

I know nothing about this programme so can’t comment but I do know that failure to develop the thoracic sling properly is at the root of many troubles talentEd uphill horses who find the balance easy get to worked through to quickly and end up using their joints to much before they have the muscle bulk they need .
The less talented more normal type horse struggles to get off its forehand and ends up stuck on its shoulder with its neck locked in position .

You have just described my Fern. That’s her. Stuck on her shoulders with her neck locked.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I know nothing about this programme so can’t comment but I do know that failure to develop the thoracic sling properly is at the root of many troubles talentEd uphill horses who find the balance easy get to worked through to quickly and end up using their joints to much before they have the muscle bulk they need .
The less talented more normal type horse struggles to get off its forehand and ends up stuck on its shoulder with its neck locked in position .

Not denying that It's just become a big "thing" lately and people are rather fixated on it. Which is fine, and good in most cases, but it has become all people look at in some cases. Or they immediately jump to that, specifically. I think many people have been aware of it and have been developing it before it was cool I'm not opposed to thoracic sling stuff, but it's like, it's mentioned with every horse nowadays as a catchall (not by everyone!). Just my opinion and experience. I couldn't care less if anyone disagrees.

I'm not necessarily saying it's bad and I am for people being and becoming more aware of their horse and how to best develop them, but it's getting rather gimmicky in some instances.

 

[AWinter]

I am continously baffled by your recommendations re the "Celeste programme" I wouldn't give that woman one cent of my money. Blows my mind that you support her and her programme, but to each their own.

Then again, I guess it's all apart of what's new, gimmicky, and the thoracic sling obsession.

This isn't against you personally, I'd say this to anyone pushing this programme. Not even as a last ditch effort in my book.

What do you think is wrong with the Celeste program?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I do think vets carry on too long. And I also think vets fail to see the bigger picture. I had a young connemara mare, and she was never quite right. Never anything dangerous but one day she'd fly and the next she would plant and refuse to move. One day she'd move freely, the next she'd be unwilling to take the hand-brake off. The not-rightness varied dramatically. Again it was put down to behaviour as she was never lame.We never accepted that and sent her for a bone scan, xrays, an MRI. The works. Everything showed up something slightly different. And the vet would get excited and treat the symptom. Each separate symptom would resolve and they'd be pleased with her 'progress' but the overall picture was still an unhappy pony communicating her unhappiness with a reluctance to work. They never took a step back and looked at her holistically and recognised that it was a deteriorating picture presenting differently day-to-day but with an overall relentless decline.

You seem very open minded and willing to look at the bigger picture, as well as pursuing every last lead. But sometimes the more you dig, the more you find, without ever really changing anything. And some day you need to decide when enough is enough. For her as much as for you. Horrible position to be in.

 

[Dexter]

What do you think is wrong with the Celeste program?

Part of my issue with it is the lack of information and the fact that it appears badly run and organised. But the main problem is that this sort of in-hand work needs eyes on the ground. It's not something you can learn from an online course, no matter how good it is or you are.

Having just read on another post that the course is being pushed as a cure for lameness and you don't need a sound horse to start I am absolutely horrified and completely in agreement with CC. How can any ethical trainer recommend their online course to someone with a lame horse that they have never seen??

 

[Palindrome]

Potential health problems aside, it seems that it's not enjoyable for you. If you can, I would retire her, pop a rain sheet or a fly sheet as needed, go for little walks in hand when/if you fancy it but take the pressure off yourself.
Who knows, perhaps after a long break you can bring her back and she'll be more settled.

 

[SEL]

OP I have a mare in my field who sounds very much like yours. She has a tonne of physical issues none of which alone should be enough to cause the volatile reactions I used to get - perhaps it was all of them together or perhaps we never found the real issue. Nerve impingement was mentioned by a chiro vet many years ago but I've had all the big name bodyworkers out to her and any improvements have been temporary.

I never intentionally stopped riding her but I moved yards and needed to buy a taller mounting block. That few week gap just made me wonder why I was trying to ride a horse when neither of us were enjoying it. She's not a nasty horse and leads out in hand with me like a big dog.

It's difficult when people (vets, bodyworkers, online strangers) keep telling you to try x,y,z but it sounds like your subconscious is screaming at you to stop riding her before you get hurt. I think Michael Peace would give you an honest assessment and that's probably where I would spend my money.

 

[Charrose77]

OP I have a mare in my field who sounds very much like yours. She has a tonne of physical issues none of which alone should be enough to cause the volatile reactions I used to get - perhaps it was all of them together or perhaps we never found the real issue. Nerve impingement was mentioned by a chiro vet many years ago but I've had all the big name bodyworkers out to her and any improvements have been temporary.

I never intentionally stopped riding her but I moved yards and needed to buy a taller mounting block. That few week gap just made me wonder why I was trying to ride a horse when neither of us were enjoying it. She's not a nasty horse and leads out in hand with me like a big dog.

It's difficult when people (vets, bodyworkers, online strangers) keep telling you to try x,y,z but it sounds like your subconscious is screaming at you to stop riding her before you get hurt. I think Michael Peace would give you an honest assessment and that's probably where I would spend my money.

Yep. I just want to get someone like him out. To meet her in person, see her in her own environment and give me an honest opinion. It could be that I am the problem. Totally willing to accept that.

 

[sport horse]

In one way I am throughly admiring of you for perservering and spending so much time and money on your horse. On the other hand, I quesion why you bought a horse. To ride? Well why would you ride something that is plainly in pain and dangerous? If you love her, retire her and give her a lovely life at grass and meanwhile find something pleasant to hack out on a lovely spring afternoon, maybe with your friends and a stop at a pub!

 

[Goldenstar]

Part of my issue with it is the lack of information and the fact that it appears badly run and organised. But the main problem is that this sort of in-hand work needs eyes on the ground. It's not something you can learn from an online course, no matter how good it is or you are.

Having just read on another post that the course is being pushed as a cure for lameness and you don't need a sound horse to start I am absolutely horrified and completely in agreement with CC. How can any ethical trainer recommend their online course to someone with a lame horse that they have never seen??

To suggest that a lame horse should be asked to do things without saying that I put from that horses vet is completely unethical.
If thats what’s happening this programme has to go into the snake oil category I am afraid .

 

[tristar]

as above.

i would stop ridng her now, today

because its too tough on her, and on you, lift that great load of pressure off yourself.

turn away for six months, spend time with her, do whatever she can do that she and you can enjoy, so you can spend time with her, bits of in hand work etc to keep some muscle tone.

keep her on a bareish dield to make her work for a living and so she does not get too fat and flabby, while you look into whatever will be your next move.

as one door closes another may open, another ride may come along and who knows in 6 months time you may have found at some conclusive answers you do not have now, but at least you will both still be in one piece and hopefully will be able to see the wood for the trees, cos stepping away should enable you to, slow down, think through all the sequences of how you have arrived at this point.