Linda Parelli teaching how to hit with the snap

[brucea]

really? that old chestnut! horses know we are not horses. animal behaviour is not only about dominance, the dominance theory in the study of behaviour is outdated bith in horses and dogs. wild horses arent forever beating the crap out of each other and even if they did, that doesnt give us the right to.

So...you think your 600Kg horse sees you as anything stronger, more nimble, faster, more athletic and smarter than he is?

If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply indulging in simple minded anthropomorphism.

See you in A&E then Peter. Enjoy it. The nurses are always kind.

By the way, I don't use any agression against my horses, love them to bits, but they do know who is leader, and they do not walk all over me because "something happening over there" is more interesting and the horse's priorities are not paying atention to you - which is exactly what is going on in that clip.

When you are around them, they should pay attention to you, not to anything else. You are their leader. Anything else is going to get you hospitalised.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.

 

[Spit That Out]

{QUOTE]If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the above but in the original clip LP clearly hits the horse with a stick the handler repeatedly hits the horse around he face with a metal clip off a lead rope and when the handler is obviously not hitting the horse in the correct "nice manner" LP takes over.

It's not the firm but nice approach, that is just vicious and bullying that horse in to submission.

No matter which training method you follow surly none of them should involve hitting a horse around the head?!!?

 

[fburton]

So...you think your 600Kg horse sees you as anything stronger, more nimble, faster, more athletic and smarter than he is?

Frankly, I don't care what the horse thinks as long as I am safe and in control! However, I am pretty d*mn sure my "600kg horse" (funny how people like to quote weights) doesn't consider me to be another horse. The issue of which is stronger is irrelevant; it's brain not brawn that counts. Trying to compete with horses on physical grounds will get you hospitalized eventually. So don't do it!

If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

What some (emphasize some) NH people don't seem to get, because they've bought into one or other flavour of equine social behaviour pseudoscience, is that you don't have to be dominant (i.e. considered as "alpha mare") to be in control. Why engage in needless competition with your horse as if you were another horse yourself? If you do, you shouldn't be surprised when conflicts inevitably arise.

By the way, I don't use any agression against my horses, love them to bits,

Glad to hear it.

but they do know who is leader, and they do not walk all over me because "something happening over there" is more interesting and the horse's priorities are not paying atention to you - which is exactly what is going on in that clip.

Yes, except leadership isn't the same as dominance - at least, not for horses. The qualities that make a good leader aren't the same as what pushes a horse off their hay pile i.e. dominance. If you look at herds or groups of horses (domestic or feral) you will eventually notice that it isn't always the alpha dominant - the pushiest horse - that is the leader, the one the others choose to follow - and vice versa. Often they are different individuals. Leadership is about who is viewed as experienced, trustworthy and safe to follow, not about who gets first dibs on food and water. Unfortunately, the two roles are frequently muddled (for, I suspect, anthropomorphic reasons - because in human culture the two roles frequently coincide).

When you are around them, they should pay attention to you, not to anything else. You are their leader. Anything else is going to get you hospitalised.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.

No arguments there, as long as "firm" doesn't involve behaving aggressively or in a bullying fashion (like Linda Parelli in the clip).

 

[fburton]

Addressed to pippinpie...

Do you really not see anything wrong at all in this clip?

Pippinpie - I suspect your answer is "No". However, my other question - slightly more interesting - is:

Given your extensive BHS experience, what would you have thought about the clip if you had seen it before you embarked on the Parelli programme, not knowing anything about the methods they teach?

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

That's from a human point of view. How dangerous is the horse depends on how inexperienced is the handler. However, that doesn't justify treating a horse badly just because its owner is either unskilled, inexperienced or an idiot. If I went around abusing horses to allow their novice owners to learn how to handle them IF they became dangerous, I wouldn't get a lot of work after a while.

I prefer to teach sensible, humane, non-confrontational handling techniques which, if practiced consistently, help the owner/handler produce a compliant horse which has no reason to become dangerous. That way, the owner learns to be quiet, firm, and fair in their handling of their horse, which establishes a bond of trust and respect between them. No flapping, no lashing ropes about, no pain, no fear, no confusion, no mistrust...

I have experience of handling dangerous horses too. Without exception they all have become dangerous due to inexpert or inappropriate handling by humans. Some have been ill-used, and some have been damaged by people who genuinely thought they were doing the right thing but just lacked knowledge/experience. Once these animals realise that they are being handled by a quiet, fair handler who doesn't inflict pain and cause them confusion, they become non-dangerous very quickly.

i totally agree. which is why i said it was ONE way....not THE way. Even though I am a long time parelli student, i use my own judgement. I would not/do not, do it THAT way. I was merely speaking on the statement of someone saying the horse wasn't dangerous. I agree....it wasn't....for ME. But i don't know the horse and owner, and i wasnt there for the incident to know all the facts.

I don't blame anyone for not liking what they see in this video. But the facts are.....it IS an old video, it is NOT part of the current educational material, and it was only a very small section of the teachings when it was, it is NOT the sum of the whole of Parelli Natural Horsemanship.

I was thinking about this on my drive home from work yesterday. someone earlier mentioned the hipocricy of saying one thing and teaching another. I can totally see how any rational sane tradition horse person would see and think that, based on the Linda/barny/arab video's and the pat&cat show. The sad thing to all this is.....what i have seen by many other well known and publisized trainers.......is that the others are FAR worse than pat and linda. they just don't put it on tape for all to see. they DO hide behind the barn. CA is one who is highly agressive and cruel to a horse if he deems it is needed, at clinics on a students horse. i watched him once repeatedly spur a students horse for a half hour, doing roll back at canter on a very small circle, to teach the horse to move its ribs from the spurs. it was day three of the clinic and the horse was already tired and not used to such intense and severe activity. i wasnt shocked though....seen him do stuff like that before......alot. So it is being a hipocrite that makes them the worst as few complain about trainers who are 1000's of times worse than them.

i am in the states. we do not, as a whole, have the rich horse culture that you in the UK have. some of the stuff i see going on here would blow your minds. i cry at least twice a month for stuff i see people doing to horses that just isnt needed if they learned anything from anyone. these are people who will spend much time and energy reading a manual and asking questions about thier new computer or phone, but not one freaking question about a potentially lethal animal.

take this one on for size.....last month, at a party, MANY drunk people, and lots of kids, are totally and completely allowed to go "ride" the horses in the back yard. which included a barely 2yo colt recently gelded, started undersaddle by owner who has only owned/ridden horses for 6mos, whom they claim it has all gone 'soo well, no buck" and 3mo colt weaned too early off dam and given to them, and a highly witchy mare who has no probelms defending her new colt that she adopted as her own. they did not supervise (not that a drunk person can) or even check what was going on. the 2yo was so frightened, he bucked everyone off and kick an undetermined number of children, as did the witchy mare. But they are proud of the "good time" they showed thier guests! i wasnt even there, them just telling me about it made me cry. this is the stupidity of the horse owners i see on a regular basis, and does not even include the horrors of intentional abuse.

I am not saying linda's video is right or wrong. just saying, it is a whole lot of hubaloo, over not a very significant event. honestly....you want to see abuse....look at the video in my signature, I dare you to make it to the end of the video without throwing up your breakfast. until this is irradicated......i will not go after the linda's and Pat's of the world. It is horses like this in the below video whom Pat and Linda are trying to save....Not you Brits with your centuries of good horsemanship.

 

[eahotson]

Welcome back Tongue in Cheek.I agree with practically everything you say.I didn't much like Parelli because my one attempt was poorly taught, but you know what? I have had a lot worse in the traditional world.The mad, the bad, the totally inadequate and the totally deranged.I know what I have seen behind the scenes at TRADITIONAL shows.A friend of mine worked many years ago for a then well known and successful showjumping team.They taught horses never to stop by setting up some jumps with distances that the horse couldn't make, when they stopped they beat them until they wet themselves.
Still not that fond of the Parellis and guess its in part because ofthe hypocrisy, BUT no they are not the worst, not by a long shot.Pat, in fact, I have seen do some really good work.LOVED the CAT and PAT show!

 

[touchstone]

I appreciate that there is cruelty in all methods and that there are worse things going on than the Parelli's - but that doesn't make it right that horses are getting bullied in the name of 'kindness' which is what really irks me.

If the Parelli's are helping people to treat horses differently, then why not go the whole hog and do it without the bullying and intimidation and force? The handling in that video was abysmal, at least there will be a ready supply of head shy horses for Pat to fix though

 

[Kokopelli]

OIK - come on then - tell us all how you do it with a really pushy disrespectful horse?

Ah - another 26 pages of anti-parelli, but not a constructive suggestion in it. Maybe you prefer novicey types to get flattened and hospitalised by their horses?????

LP is doing the right thing - byut the context is not there. You can clearly see the horse is paying no attention to the leader at all.

You should only need to go there once. Obviously it;s far better to thrash the horse with a lunge whip (that's what people in my last yard did and that worked really well...erm not) or maybe use a broom handle acrioss the chest (a local BHS "trainer")

Oh - and just remember - this is NOTHING compared to what horses do to each other to enforce herd discipline!

Absolutely NOT a Parelli disciple - but also not a great fan of the twisted invective which inevitably follows any of these posts.

If you read my whole post you would have noticed I did write how to deal with a horse that gets in your personal space. You have basically just dis regarded my post, it had some suggestions on how to deal with a horse like that rather then hit it with a stupid orange stick!

 

[Bay_Beasty]

*Yawn*

covered this topic much before???
Why yes we have!!

Is it boring to go over the same argument again and again???
Why yes it is!!

Will peoples opinions change after this post, NH or non NH??
No I don't believe they will

 

[MotherOfChickens]

So...you think your 600Kg horse sees you as anything stronger, more nimble, faster, more athletic and smarter than he is?

If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply indulging in simple minded anthropomorphism.

See you in A&E then Peter. Enjoy it. The nurses are always kind.

By the way, I don't use any agression against my horses, love them to bits, but they do know who is leader, and they do not walk all over me because "something happening over there" is more interesting and the horse's priorities are not paying atention to you - which is exactly what is going on in that clip.

When you are around them, they should pay attention to you, not to anything else. You are their leader. Anything else is going to get you hospitalised.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.

thanks for the concern lol but I have three, well handled, well mannered horses who are a treat to shoe, worm, travel, show, take away for clinics and hacks, lead out, hack etc two of them I've had since young one of which had never been handled, one came to me green in his teens.
you're right, I am in charge when it comes to moving them out the way, doling out food/hay but I didnt need some numpty with an orange stick to try and show me how. as another poster put it, leadership isnt dominance.

 

[Tinypony]

Originally Posted by Tinypony -
"I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her. He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him. I have seen it time and time again. Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past? They are still alive aren't they? Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved."

From LucyPriory -
"So as long as the animal is still alive anything goes?

An interesting point of view - not one I subscribe to.

For me, the only thing being proven is that in some quarters bullying, aggressive behaviour is ok. "

(I don't know how to quote all that properly...)

I wish that you'd read what I typed. I said that PAT AND LINDA are still alive. And I didn't subscribe to anything, I just made a statement. Pat Parelli in particular has been handling horses of all types and temperaments for most of his life. And in spite of his methods being suspect, he is still ALIVE. So I doubt very much that anyone here has a horse that would kill him.

What I am saying is that life isn't a Disney cartoon. Your/my/our horses wouldn't stand up to him like some horse in a film and stomp the nasty man into the ground to teach him a lesson. They would submit to his method of training, as 1,000's have done before him. It's not pretty, but the results are there for all to see. (I am talking about the results of Pat Parelli training horses, I'm not talking about any of his followers who over-horse themselves). In case anyone isn't clear, what I am doing here is sharing my experience of Parelli, I'm not condoning what happens on these disturbing videos, and I don't train my horses in the Parelli way. I do however use rope halters and long ropes, which leads some who don't know much about NH to assume that I do.

Fburton, you speak common sense as usual.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I appreciate that there is cruelty in all methods and that there are worse things going on than the Parelli's - but that doesn't make it right that horses are getting bullied in the name of 'kindness' which is what really irks me.

If the Parelli's are helping people to treat horses differently, then why not go the whole hog and do it without the bullying and intimidation and force? The handling in that video was abysmal, at least there will be a ready supply of head shy horses for Pat to fix though

The saddest part of being a Parelli student right now is that I cannot disagree. The up side is, since those are OLD video's, Linda IS considerably better than that now, as far as your opinions would be concerned. that is of course looking from the inside out.

I agree that it is not right in any format, but nothing done, comes close to the blows a horse can deliver.

as beasty-bay said....this is an old argument.....different video....been there.....yawned over it to death.

I doubt much that i say could change anyones mine, which is why i don't try. besides, like i said....i dont' defend them. they have to stand judgement for thier actions themselves. not me.

 

[dolly1971]

Hi hope someone can help does anyone know if parelli makes horses nasty?

 

[JingleTingle]

Oh dear - here we go!

 

[Pixxie]

Excellent just made my cuppa piece of sponge anyone??

 

[Mongoose11]

Excellent just made my cuppa piece of sponge anyone??

Cake please. Is it Cherry Maderia by any chance?

I haven't seen the original video and it isn't available now - anyone have a new link?

 

[sarahann1]

Hi hope someone can help does anyone know if parelli makes horses nasty?

If you have a spare few days read through this post and make your mind up what the general consensus of opinion is re Parelli.

Excellent just made my cuppa piece of sponge anyone??

oh yes please, I never say no to cake, thanks

 

[MrsMozart]

 

[Pixxie]

I'm afraid not its a sponge tray bake affair with simple icing sugar icing and hundreds and thousands *holds out tin*

 

[Marydoll]

I cant view as the videos been pulled, but having seen both parellis in action i wouldnt allow any of them near any of my horses, both of them get right on my st moritz !

 

[Pixxie]

Ooo and homemade I forgot to mention

 

[Mongoose11]

I'm afraid not its a sponge tray bake affair with simple icing sugar icing and hundreds and thousands *holds out tin*

*peers into tin as if genuinely fussy rather than 'will eat anything' dustbin type of girl'*

Oooohh go on then

 

[Ladyinred]

Someone must be bored to resurrect a two year old thread!!

 

[PolarSkye]

Oh dear.

Assuming the person who resurrected this thread is a) not a troll; and b) has covered themselves head to toe in flame retardant material . . .

. . . no, I don't think teaching Parelli necessarily makes horses nasty . . . but IMHO it does depend largely on how Parelli is applied, the temperament of the horse, the temperament of the owner and who else handles the horse (and how).

I think, if Parelli is applied in a very "narrow" and rigid way, it can make a horse quite "specific" and narrow in its thinking . . . which may mean that when someone who doesn't practice Parelli handles the horse (e.g., a groom on a full livery yard) that wires get crossed (between horse and handler) and things go wrong.

P

 

[sarahann1]

Think cake and pop corn need to go to another resurrected thread

Cant help wonder if an existing member is up to mischief?

 

[Tinypony]

I turn my back for 4 days and someone digs up a load of Parelli archive material. In the nicest possible way... Why??

 

[Golf Girl]

WTF???

 

[Moon]

Tinypony,.i asked the same on one of the other posts! Am sure im missing something here! strange

 

[amandaco2]

Sounds weird.is she still allowed out???after the partially blind horse episode.....

 

[Shysmum]

NO MORE PARELLI POSTS PETITION COMING SOON !!!!