Linda Parelli teaching how to hit with the snap

[JadeWisc]

Would you let a parent do this to a child? Even a violent child?

When you last lost your cool in traffic, the supermarket or whereever, would it be ok for someone to do this to you?

There is never any excuse for violence of this type.

I am not condoning horse abuse but I am not so sure a child could trample over and kill the average adult so you can hardly compare the two ....just sayin

 

[TedwinkleJumper]

The more I read about her, the more I want to slap her round the face with a muddy boot.

ETA So basically, flap around and hit your horse in the face, so it is so scared to come near to you.! She looks so rough and agressive and the poor horse just looks confused and upset. Blooming idiot woman.

Agree totally, wouldnt let her or monty roberts get anywere near my horse x

 

[LucyPriory]

I am not condoning horse abuse but I am not so sure a child could trample over and kill the average adult so you can hardly compare the two ....just sayin

I think you are slightly missing the point. But it doesn't matter - a violent child can severely injure another child, an animal or even an adult. And the violent child grows up to be a violent adult. As a small (ish) person, who grew up in a violent household I know how to take down someone much bigger than me. Size is not the issue. I bite too!

The point is that aggression/violence towards another sentient being is wrong. Violence breeds violence.

I've worked with a few damaged horses, all of them damaged by human violence and/or ignorance. None of them, even the seriously determined needed to be hit.

Clicker training and a bit of TLC worked wonders though.

 

[jokadoka]

Reading a few of your replies I think you are missing a point Laura, understandably given your experience. If your pony Herbie had been trained by a "Parelli professional" or experienced student then he would not have demonstrated the issues that he did when you got him. Like it or hate it, in the long term if Parelli training is carried out as they intend it to be, the horses emerge calm, safe and biddable.
You give Pat P any one of your fiesty horses and trust me, they will not rear up and rebel, squash him or similarly do him damage. They will not end up headshy or scared of sticks and whips. You probably wouldn't like what he'd do, but your horse would learn to do as he asked, just as 1,000's have done before. The reality is that, when this training is done as intended, it works. It works on any type or breed of horse. I have seen it time and time again. The reasons why it works are the subject of a much larger and longer discussion, but I want you to understand that Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses. Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that.
The messed up Parelli horses that people always go on about on these threads are the result of people mucking about with horses that are beyond their level of Parelli experience.
This isn't me supporting hitting horses on the head with sticks and clips, I'm just sharing the facts with you all, based on my years as a Parelli student, and the many, many Parelli horses and trainers I have met.
When the Catwalk videos were shared I was shocked, they seemed to show Pat P compromising his own principles. Videos like this one don't shock or surprise me at all, they are part of the training materials and do show examples of what can happen in a lesson.

So are you saying the end justifies the means? I have to disagree.

 

[lillith]

Can anyone show me an example of Parrelli video with a 'dangerous horse' in it? Perhaps I have spent too long around snotty riding school ponies but I have yet to see horse I would consider dangerous in a Parrelli video. A couple of slightly pushy or enthusiastic ones but never dangerous.

Perhaps they would be in less danger if they wore hats.......but that is a whole n'other argument...

 

[AengusOg]

This is STILL going on?

For something that is supposedly "mainly in America and should stay there" You people sure spend a LOT of time and effort worrying about it and discussing it on here.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry about PNH on several scores.

I worry about the attitude of some Parelli adherents that there is justification for treating horses the way 'Barney', 'Catwalk', and this grey arab were treated.

I worry that anyone could argue that a horse being abused in an extract from a training DVD is acceptable.

I worry that anyone could argue that such treatment of horses is acceptable under any circumstances.

I worry that the defenders of this treatment of horses can claim that the 'before and after' pieces of the DVD, if watched by the complainers, would make everything alright as they'd find that the horse was treated badly for a good cause.

I worry that there is a growing mistrust of Natural Horsemanship methods in general as a direct result of this treatment of horses by Parelli founders.

I worry that novice horse-owners are being denuded of vast amounts of money by a shower of American sharks with double standards at the core of their teachings.

I worry about all the horses which are being ruined by those followers of Parelli who, having genuinely sought a method of working with their horses which will enhance their relationship, find that they have in fact followed the wrong route and created more problems than they've solved.

I worry about all the people who deny themselves a varied education by believing that all which is not Parelli is not worth knowing.

I worry about the horses which, kept by utter novices, live lives of harassment and stress caused by constant game-playing without progression.

I worry that the UK is becoming America.

 

[pippinpie]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry about PNH on several scores.

I worry about the attitude of some Parelli adherents that there is justification for treating horses the way 'Barney', 'Catwalk', and this grey arab were treated.

I worry that anyone could argue that a horse being abused in an extract from a training DVD is acceptable.

I worry that anyone could argue that such treatment of horses is acceptable under any circumstances.

I worry that the defenders of this treatment of horses can claim that the 'before and after' pieces of the DVD, if watched by the complainers, would make everything alright as they'd find that the horse was treated badly for a good cause.

I worry that there is a growing mistrust of Natural Horsemanship methods in general as a direct result of this treatment of horses by Parelli founders.

I worry that novice horse-owners are being denuded of vast amounts of money by a shower of American sharks with double standards at the core of their teachings.

I worry about all the horses which are being ruined by those followers of Parelli who, having genuinely sought a method of working with their horses which will enhance their relationship, find that they have in fact followed the wrong route and created more problems than they've solved.

I worry about all the people who deny themselves a varied education by believing that all which is not Parelli is not worth knowing.

I worry about the horses which, kept by utter novices, live lives of harassment and stress caused by constant game-playing without progression.

I worry that the UK is becoming America.

Don't worry Oggybaby don't you know it's pointless worrying about things out of your control, one of first thing shrinks tell depressed people!
Now I worry about.... erm let me see.............not a lot.

PS, I am living up to my signature, just helping poor Oggy from worrying.

 

[poppypiebald]

... Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses. Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that....

THAT is the single most worrying thing: you should keep an open mind! If every horse sung from the same hymn sheet, every horse would have an equally happy relationship with their owner/rider/carer. They don't. There is no One Way. If there was, we'd all be experts and we wouldn't need to pay thousands of experts lots of money to find out how to do it.

 

[LauraWheeler]

... Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses. Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that....

THAT is the single most worrying thing: you should keep an open mind! If every horse sung from the same hymn sheet, every horse would have an equally happy relationship with their owner/rider/carer. They don't. There is no One Way. If there was, we'd all be experts and we wouldn't need to pay thousands of experts lots of money to find out how to do it.

I know what you mean. I spent 12 years with Lucy going from having a very very very dangourous pony to having the most amazing pony that ever lived. Lucy taught me so much over those 12 years but now I am starting the process over again with Herbie. He is nowhere near as bad as Lucy was but he was still very dangourous when I took him on. He needs dealing with in a very diferent way to Lucy. Some of the things that worked with her don't work on him and simaly some of the things that didn't work with Lucy are working with Herbie. Horses for courses as they say.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Can anyone show me an example of Parrelli video with a 'dangerous horse' in it? Perhaps I have spent too long around snotty riding school ponies but I have yet to see horse I would consider dangerous in a Parrelli video. A couple of slightly pushy or enthusiastic ones but never dangerous.

Perhaps they would be in less danger if they wore hats.......but that is a whole n'other argument...

I just want to say that dangerous is a subjective term. maybe when you look at a horse, you don't see it as dangerous because you are a skilled horse person with alot of experience. what may not be 'dangerous' to one person, is a kick in the head waiting to happen to another. most of the 'dangerous' horses i see, would not be dangerous to ME, but i see many people nearly getting themselves killed by them.

 

[LauraWheeler]

I just want to say that dangerous is a subjective term. maybe when you look at a horse, you don't see it as dangerous because you are a skilled horse person with alot of experience. what may not be 'dangerous' to one person, is a kick in the head waiting to happen to another. most of the 'dangerous' horses i see, would not be dangerous to ME, but i see many people nearly getting themselves killed by them.

You are right about dangerous being a subjective term. Although I don't see how any of the horses I have seen on a Parelli video could be described as remotly dangourous.
I'm sorry if someone is that afraid of horses they feel the need to hit a nice horse over the head incase they do something dangerous they have no buisness owning a horse.
I'm prity shore Poor Herbs didn't have half the problems he had when I took him on when his last owner bought him. She paid quite alot of money for him and took a HUGE loss when she sold him on.

 

[JadeWisc]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry about PNH on several scores.

I worry about the attitude of some Parelli adherents that there is justification for treating horses the way 'Barney', 'Catwalk', and this grey arab were treated.

I worry that anyone could argue that a horse being abused in an extract from a training DVD is acceptable.

I worry that anyone could argue that such treatment of horses is acceptable under any circumstances.

I worry that the defenders of this treatment of horses can claim that the 'before and after' pieces of the DVD, if watched by the complainers, would make everything alright as they'd find that the horse was treated badly for a good cause.

I worry that there is a growing mistrust of Natural Horsemanship methods in general as a direct result of this treatment of horses by Parelli founders.

I worry that novice horse-owners are being denuded of vast amounts of money by a shower of American sharks with double standards at the core of their teachings.

I worry about all the horses which are being ruined by those followers of Parelli who, having genuinely sought a method of working with their horses which will enhance their relationship, find that they have in fact followed the wrong route and created more problems than they've solved.

I worry about all the people who deny themselves a varied education by believing that all which is not Parelli is not worth knowing.

I worry about the horses which, kept by utter novices, live lives of harassment and stress caused by constant game-playing without progression.

I worry that the UK is becoming America.

You worry a lot here have a glass of wine ....or maybe we should make it a bottle....or two


and as for your last worry....

I worry that you have a misguided view of the majority of American horsemen. Are you suggesting we are all running around with carrot sticks and have vast libraries of Parelli DVDs? This is a big place with lots of top notch horsemen of all varieties that have been in great partenships with thier animals long before these people came about. I hardly even hear about Parelli anymore come to think of it ( except on here) and NONE of my fellow horsemen where I currently live would have anything to do with watching them. I have heard quite a few talking about Clinton Anderson though Never the old cowboys however

 

[fburton]

OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.

Do you really not see anything wrong at all in this clip?

 

[BeccaandRoo]

shocked, really shocked at that video. how is having him far away on the end of a lead rope safe for either of them? i dont understand why she fears the horse and needs him far away for her safety.
and exactly what has he done to deserve being smacking the mouth with a metal clip? for walking next to her? maybe he did get a little bit too close for comfort at times and so waving her elbow to make him take a step away, is acceptable but definatly not 'snapping' the rope
sorry if this has all been said, new to this thread.
LP obv needs a lot of therepy to get over her fear of horses.

 

[AengusOg]

I just want to say that dangerous is a subjective term. maybe when you look at a horse, you don't see it as dangerous because you are a skilled horse person with alot of experience. what may not be 'dangerous' to one person, is a kick in the head waiting to happen to another. most of the 'dangerous' horses i see, would not be dangerous to ME, but i see many people nearly getting themselves killed by them.

That's from a human point of view. How dangerous is the horse depends on how inexperienced is the handler. However, that doesn't justify treating a horse badly just because its owner is either unskilled, inexperienced or an idiot. If I went around abusing horses to allow their novice owners to learn how to handle them IF they became dangerous, I wouldn't get a lot of work after a while.

I prefer to teach sensible, humane, non-confrontational handling techniques which, if practiced consistently, help the owner/handler produce a compliant horse which has no reason to become dangerous. That way, the owner learns to be quiet, firm, and fair in their handling of their horse, which establishes a bond of trust and respect between them. No flapping, no lashing ropes about, no pain, no fear, no confusion, no mistrust...

I have experience of handling dangerous horses too. Without exception they all have become dangerous due to inexpert or inappropriate handling by humans. Some have been ill-used, and some have been damaged by people who genuinely thought they were doing the right thing but just lacked knowledge/experience. Once these animals realise that they are being handled by a quiet, fair handler who doesn't inflict pain and cause them confusion, they become non-dangerous very quickly.

 

[AengusOg]

You worry a lot here have a glass of wine ....or maybe we should make it a bottle....or two


and as for your last worry....

I worry that you have a misguided view of the majority of American horsemen. Are you suggesting we are all running around with carrot sticks and have vast libraries of Parelli DVDs? This is a big place with lots of top notch horsemen of all varieties that have been in great partenships with thier animals long before these people came about. I hardly even hear about Parelli anymore come to think of it ( except on here) and NONE of my fellow horsemen where I currently live would have anything to do with watching them. I have heard quite a few talking about Clinton Anderson though Never the old cowboys however

Spiced rum for me please...but only a wee drop.

No, I'm not suggesting that you are 'all running around with carrot sticks and have vast libraries of Parelli DVDs?', and I do acknowledge that there are some very good horsemen in the USA. Some of them have ancestors who came from here after all.

I am delighted to hear that you 'hardly even hear about Parelli anymore come to think of it ( except on here) and NONE of my fellow horsemen where I currently live would have anything to do with watching them.' That would be an ideal scenario over here, let me assure you.

 

[Kokopelli]

There are so many nicer ways to deal with that horse.

The waving the elbow thing isn't a bad idea but she had the rope in the same hand so the poor horse was getting the rope waved around his face it must have been a bit uncomfortable. When my horse gets in my personal space I back him up a few paces then walk him on again this works way better then waving a rope in his face.

Talk about sending mixed messages to the horse, she pulls him arou the corner which he gets as go faster which is fair enough and then she waves her elbow at him and LP hits him in the nose with the orange thing. So the poor horse has been told go faster just to be hurt fordoing what he was told!

I'm pretty sure when you go around a corner with a horse you push them around rather then pull, I learnt this doing my Pony Club D test!! 11 year olds know this yet LP seems oblivious!!

LP needs to go and learn how to handle horses properrly and stop teaching ignorant people to handle your horse without hurting them but wacking them in the face is ok and hobbling a stressed out horse is even better and if you ull it off your a better horseman/woman!!

Rant over anyone for a hot chocolate?

 

[Vizslak]

No word of a lie...my horse would kill her if she did that to him! He's a good boy and respectful, yep hes a bit quirky but not a dangerous horse. However he would not put up with that treatment and the more she pushed and said he needed to learn and continued with this method of 'training' the more he would try to kill her, she would not win a battle with him with these methods...she would definately end up very seriously injured. If it wouldnt completely wreck my horse I would be tempted to prove my point and let her try! What a moron.

 

[Tinypony]

I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her. He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him. I have seen it time and time again. Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past? They are still alive aren't they? Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

sorry, havent read the last few pages.

is this horse abuse at its worst? of course not but that doesnt justify it or mean we shouldnt complain about it.

self-opinionated arab?not sure what that means. I saw nothing bad/dangerous in that horse's behaviour, I saw a horse that had ended up with a nervous, novice owner-not his fault. arabs are intelligent, sensitive and all the ones I've known have been highly person oriented. certainly not horses that are hard to train or be around!

Please don't make this an anti-US thing, it's very naive and embarassing to assume they are all like the ignorant a**hats seen on the FHOTD site.

I don't have much use for NH, if I had to pay a guy to teach me how to lead a horse over a tarp I would give up. I think if you can't work out a logical training process for something like that then you shouldnt be in charge of the important aspects of horse management.

However, most (but not all) people who get sucked into this are the more inexperienced owners who obviously arent getting what they need from instructors/other horse owners etc etc I don't know what the answer is-its all tied into the change in leisure riders, work, how we keep our horses but LP recognised a niche in the market and have filled it.

 

[Sarah Sum1]

I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her. He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him. I have seen it time and time again. Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past? They are still alive aren't they? Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.

Yes it would ' submit'. any animal that is hit over the head would. It's called fear. Nice way to train an animal.....I don't think!

 

[LucyPriory]

I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her. He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him. I have seen it time and time again. Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past? They are still alive aren't they? Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.

So as long as the animal is still alive anything goes?

An interesting point of view - not one I subscribe to.

For me, the only thing being proven is that in some quarters bullying, aggressive behaviour is ok.

 

[Munchkin]

I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her. He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him. I have seen it time and time again. Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past? They are still alive aren't they? Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.

Give that Catwalk was "one of the worst horses" Prat has ever handled, I conclude that he hasn't seen many 'fiesty' horses.

Of course he wouldn't take on a truly dangerous horse, being killed when it reacted strongly wouldn't look good for his little circus act. He's not that stupid, is he?

If he DID attempt the approaches I've seen so far with a truly p*ssed off stallion, the reaction from the horse would likely be somewhat different.

 

[texel]

Here is Ellen Ofstad - you can get a stressed horse to focus on you if you are calm and persistant in your approach. The horse is upset and distracted at first ..... see for yourself.

http://barnmice.ning.com/video/natural-horsemanship-the

 

[HollyWoozle]

This clip leads me to the following conclusion:

Linda Parelli = a complete tit

Yes, I watched the full clip, and although I can't understand the full context of the situation, there is no context in my mind which can justify these methods.

I for one don't see that the horse was doing anything wrong anyway. He looked to me like he was walking along with his owner very sensibly. What is all that "protect yourself" stuff about? Protect yourself from what? The friendly looking horse that is following along behind you because you're holding a rope attached to it? I personally feel that it would be much safer for the horse to walk closer to the owner, without that long rope dangling. When I lead Belle I like her to be next to me or just behind so it's easy to go through gates and so on.

All in all, I found the clip very bizarre and disturbing. Those of you who jumped into the topic to defend the clip then please actually try to do so, rather than just jumping down the throats of those with a conflicting opinion.

 

[LucyPriory]

HollyWoozle - you nailed it brilliantly

 

[texel]

as a change from Linda - if you start with this video by Ellen you can watch how she works with a variety of horses with issues.

http://www.barnmice.com/video/horses-with-problems-01-intro

 

[HollyWoozle]

HollyWoozle - you nailed it brilliantly

*takes a bow*

 

[brucea]

Hmmm there are MUCH better ways to teach a horse to respect your space, there is absolutely no need to use such an abusive and aggressive method

OIK - come on then - tell us all how you do it with a really pushy disrespectful horse?

Ah - another 26 pages of anti-parelli, but not a constructive suggestion in it. Maybe you prefer novicey types to get flattened and hospitalised by their horses?????

LP is doing the right thing - byut the context is not there. You can clearly see the horse is paying no attention to the leader at all.

You should only need to go there once. Obviously it;s far better to thrash the horse with a lunge whip (that's what people in my last yard did and that worked really well...erm not) or maybe use a broom handle acrioss the chest (a local BHS "trainer")

Oh - and just remember - this is NOTHING compared to what horses do to each other to enforce herd discipline!

Absolutely NOT a Parelli disciple - but also not a great fan of the twisted invective which inevitably follows any of these posts.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Obviously it;s far better to thrash the horse with a lunge whip (that's what people in my last yard did and that worked really well...erm not) or maybe use a broom handle acrioss the chest (a local BHS "trainer")

well, neither are correct are they, why use the extremes? I am not anti telling a horse whats unnaceptable, they get in trouble if they bite/kick/barge but what she was doing was unnecessary for that horse for what he was doing at that time-not that I think that repeated hitting is ever necessary.

Oh - and just remember - this is NOTHING compared to what horses do to each other to enforce herd discipline!

really? that old chestnut! horses know we are not horses. animal behaviour is not only about dominance, the dominance theory in the study of behaviour is outdated bith in horses and dogs. wild horses arent forever beating the crap out of each other and even if they did, that doesnt give us the right to.