Linda Parelli teaching how to hit with the snap

[sleepingdragon10]

Some people on this tread are just plain ignorant and made degrading remarks about the poor young girl with the grey Arab, do you know this girl? do you know if she has 'other' problems? (other than her highly charged arab),

Highly charged arab?
I saw bullying in that video, I saw a girl who quite clearly is a novice around horses, and I saw a woman teaching the girl that the ONLY safe place for the horse to be was about 10ft behind her. What the hell IS that?
The arab did NOTHING at all to deserve the kind of force that was applied there, but give it a 'natural' title, and accuse those who question the techniques of being 'ignorant', et voila, you've got Parelli.

 

[LauraWheeler]

OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.

Oh thats very Mature.
I just don't see how you can justify this video. Even if the Arab was naughty before the video started (although I highly dought it was as dangourous as the parelli followers would have us believe) During the video the poor horse did nothing wrong. They walked so fast it had to jog to keep up, when it did it got hit with the rope They changed direction so fast it had to spin round very quickly to keep up, when it did it got hit by the rope and even the LUNGE WHIP .
It was not difficult to handle. I deal with problem horses all the time. I've owned them for goodness sake. I know what a horse is like when it's difficult to handle and trust me with a REAL problem horse you do not want to be standing 5ft away where it could easily spin round and kickout at you and there would be nothing you could do to stop it, or it could easily use all it's weight against you to pull the rope out of your hand. Come on 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember. You must know all this. There is no way Parelli would work on the horses I deal with. Not in the state they come to me anyway. Herbie the pony I have now came from a Parelli home, that is where he got all his problems from. I forgot though all you Parelli followers ignore all my posts about poor little Herbie. Who by the way is getting much better now he's not hit round the head.
You can follow Parelli if you wish. You can continu to hit your horses over the head for there own good if it makes YOU happy.
But from what I can see Parelli is nothing but bullying and making the horse so scared of you it does whatever you want it to do.
As I have said before Herbie is the living proof of the damage Parelli can do with a pony that is truly naughty.

 

[LauraWheeler]

Some people on this tread are just plain ignorant and made degrading remarks about the poor young girl with the grey Arab, do you know this girl? do you know if she has 'other' problems? (other than her highly charged arab)

When I took Lucy on when I was 14 I had no end of problems in my life. I was 14 and being abused by a family friend and could not tell a soal it was happening, My dad hit me, I was getting bullied at school by other pupils and the teachers, I was being Bullied outside of school by other children and adults (I grew up on a rather nasty counsil estate), I was self harming, struggling with anorexia, Often suicidle, Trying to hold my family together, We had very little money and very little food, I was having to work all I could to try to pay for Lucys keep. I also had a very VERY VERY Dangourous pony. I had only been around horses for about 3 years and had only been riding for about 1 year.
NONE of that would have given me the right to hit her over the head with a rope and clip or LUNGE WHIP. None of the other stuff was her fault infact she helped me through it all.
Horses are not punchbags. They are living animals who need our love and care. NOTHING could ever justify what happened in this video.

 

[Tinypony]

Reading a few of your replies I think you are missing a point Laura, understandably given your experience. If your pony Herbie had been trained by a "Parelli professional" or experienced student then he would not have demonstrated the issues that he did when you got him. Like it or hate it, in the long term if Parelli training is carried out as they intend it to be, the horses emerge calm, safe and biddable.
You give Pat P any one of your fiesty horses and trust me, they will not rear up and rebel, squash him or similarly do him damage. They will not end up headshy or scared of sticks and whips. You probably wouldn't like what he'd do, but your horse would learn to do as he asked, just as 1,000's have done before. The reality is that, when this training is done as intended, it works. It works on any type or breed of horse. I have seen it time and time again. The reasons why it works are the subject of a much larger and longer discussion, but I want you to understand that Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses. Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that.
The messed up Parelli horses that people always go on about on these threads are the result of people mucking about with horses that are beyond their level of Parelli experience.
This isn't me supporting hitting horses on the head with sticks and clips, I'm just sharing the facts with you all, based on my years as a Parelli student, and the many, many Parelli horses and trainers I have met.
When the Catwalk videos were shared I was shocked, they seemed to show Pat P compromising his own principles. Videos like this one don't shock or surprise me at all, they are part of the training materials and do show examples of what can happen in a lesson.

 

[LauraWheeler]

Tinypony Thankyou for your response. Herbies owner was not a profetional you are right about that but she did have profetional help with him from a Parelli trainer. Every horse is an indervidual and Parelii did not work with Herbie. Maybe you could have eventualy beatern it out of him but anyone would get hurt doing it trust me. He needs love and understanding not fighting with.
Ok If you want to use parelli with you horse thats fine and I like the way you and Toungeincheek never actualy force it down peoples throughts. You both listen to what others have to say then state your case. The Parelli followers that do are the ones i have a problem with like pippinpie who deny that hitting a horse over the head is crule and say it's the only way to train a horse.
I know there are worse methods out there than Parelli I'm not nieve about that. I have worked in many yards and worked with many types of horses and some I only worked with a short time and have swarn never again.
I just get annoyed that Parelli is advertised as a kinder non violent way to train a horse and clearly it's not much different from traditonal methods. If used properly Parelli technics are not as bad as shown in the video. (I have studyed Parelli as part of a equine behavour course I did) While some of the princeples of parelli are ok some of the practices I feel I could not use on my ponies.
As I have said Herbs is improving now and becoming a happy pony again. There are many ways to get impressive end results and I choose not to get them in the way Parelli teaches.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Tongue-n-cheek If you wouldn't mind answering one more question please?

Where in this video during the parading around (I am assuming that the aim is to get the horse to walk with her at a certain distance, stop when she stops and back when she backs) is the pressure released? All I see with my untrained eye is a horse quickly learning to stay in place and back when she does but getting increasingly stressed when it cannot keep up with the quick changes of pace/direction and the lack of release.

I have trained both youngsters to lead respectfuly (from scratch) and taught an older VERY opninionated arab to lead respectfully for me (knew how, I had to persuade her it was worth doing for me) and on neither occasion had to flap, hit the horse with the metal clip, or ended up with a horse backing with its nose in the air twitching. Firm handling, voice commands and quick rewards got me decent progress in half hour sessions.

this video is really no different than the linda barney video, which i give my full "opinion' of, on the only thread i have ever created. it is a long thread, i answered about 200 questions, so what page it is on i cannot remember.

but what i can add to it, that is unique to THIS video, right or wrong, the PERSON learned to be safe by the end....I was not there in person, nor have i seen this video in a long time, as it is very old.

i cannot say that it is the best way to teach a person to be safe, only that it is one way. some people just dont understand how dangerous a horse really can be, nor the gravity of being able to keep a horse off of you.

did this horse appear stressed?....yes....why i dont know. level one is about being safe. i have seen many many people over the years being run over, time and time again, when one lesson like this, could save them a trip to the hospital. this video is not a lesson on how to lead, rather how to keep a horse off of you while you lead. again....as i state CLEARLY on my thread. i do not, will not defend Pat or Linda or any of thier actions, be it in a tour stop or on an educational dvd. the program works, but not for everyone, just like ALL training methods and ALL students. I have seen far fewer wrecks via parelli methods, than those outside of it.

I am not saying this is the right way, or the only way, just one way.

 

[siennamum]

I appreciate TiC & PippinPie, that you are not trying to be contentious and sympathise that you feel the parelli system is demonised in these threads.

TiC, the reason your writing doesn't really resonate with me, is because you start from a position of seeing lots of dangerous horses and injured handlers. I'm not sure why this happens in the states, but in the UK, in my experience it doesn't. I've had horses and been on yards for 40 years and would struggle to think of an incident where someone was injured by a horse on the ground. I'm sure there are some, but nothing which really springs out at me. (This includes stallions, youngstock and problem horses)

Maybe if we had lots of dangerous horses there would be some excuse to hit them repeatedly to make them afraid of us.

It suprises me most of all, that defenders of this video are so insistent that the arab in question in any way needs reprimanding harshly. It's clear, as someone who knows horses, that the horse starts out really liking the girl and his problem is that he wants to have fun and he wants her to join in.

The lesson he has to learn is that it's not always appropriate to behave towards a person as if she were a horse and to have more respect for her. There are so many ways in the UK that we teach young horses these simple lessons, that I wonder whether you would find it useful to come over here TiC and watch some of us at work. I have a young horse who sees me as his partner in crime sometimes and tries to enourage me to join him in having a jolly, I had to remind him that I am in charge on Sunday. I wasn't especially violent although he did get a slap with the lead rope, it took all of 30 seconds and he was very apologetic afterwards.

PP I have to day that if you still encounter problems with your horses which warrant the kind of response shown here by LP - maybe you weren't paying attention when you took your stage 4. I can't think how you could get to that level of competence and not have well behaved horses.....

 

[siennamum]

Actually I can think of 5 instances of people being injured by horses on the ground.

1. Lorry ramp came down on my brother, broke his pelvis.
2. Large aggressive stallion kicked my brother, he had to step closer to it it ensure it minimised the impact of the kick. Being at the end of a 15 foot lead rope would have been expremely dangerous.
3. 3 people I know of being kicked in the face, one whilst picking out feet, 1 caught out by young horse in the field, 1 don't know much about (was someone on HHO), but reserve judgement about whether Parelli would have provided any answers.

 

[zefragile]

Laura, I have to take issue with the following quote:

You can follow Parelli if you wish. You can continu to hit your horses over the head for there own good if it makes YOU happy.
But from what I can see Parelli is nothing but bullying and making the horse so scared of you it does whatever you want it to do.
As I have said before Herbie is the living proof of the damage Parelli can do with a pony that is truly naughty.

Not everybody doing Parelli is hitting their horses over the head! I don't understand why nobody is getting this The people I've known who do Parelli have all been experienced horse people with years and years of experience, and full of kindness and compassion, not merciless horse beaters like you make out.
Not once have I seen them make their horses afraid.
I'm sorry that your pony had such a rotten time, but his previous owner just sounds like an idiot and that should not reflect on the many other people who can use these methods without being abusers.

 

[LauraWheeler]

The Parelli method of natural horsemanship enables horse lovers at all levels and disciplines to achieve:

* Success without force
* Partnership without dominance
* Teamwork without fear
* Willingness without intimidation
* Harmony without coercion

This is taken from the Parelli website

http://www.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/natural-horse-training

This video and all the videos of LP and even some of PP contradict this.

In this video Force is clearly being used, they are intimidating the horse with there body language, using the horses fear to get it to do what they want it to. They are also using there dominance over the horse and as for Harmoney without coercion just see. LOL.
Everything I have seen of Parelli goes against what it stands for. Which is why I have said in the past I like the princeples of Parelli (as stated on the website) but I dislike the practice (as shown in the videos)

Also Tinypony I forgot to add on my reply to you. What you have said just shows the damage the marketing of Parelli does to the horse world. These videos are available for all to see and try to copy. Also people go to the demos and are told it's easy and are shown on horses who are all vetted before the demo (I know this is done have had friends told there horses are not sutable for demos because they are to bad. That obviously didn't happen with poor catwalk and look how that turned out ) Then they go home and think they will give it a go. Also the amount of books and DVDs showing clips such as the one this post is about.
The Parelli brand is not about the horse anymore it's about making money and that makes me very sad indeed.

 

[Sarah Sum1]

I guess when you see videos of the founders of Parelli using agressive methods, it would make you think this is what all parelli followers do. I guess though, not all parelli users are willing to use agression. But, if this is how LP does it, surely if you were to change the method to using no agression (by agression I mean wacking with a lead rope clip etc) (in this particular video I mean) then they can't be doing it in the way LP intended. Or have I just confused myself completely

 

[LauraWheeler]

Not everybody doing Parelli is hitting their horses over the head! I don't understand why nobody is getting this The people I've known who do Parelli have all been experienced horse people with years and years of experience, and full of kindness and compassion, not merciless horse beaters like you make out.
Not once have I seen them make their horses afraid.
I'm sorry that your pony had such a rotten time, but his previous owner just sounds like an idiot and that should not reflect on the many other people who can use these methods without being abusers.

I'm sorry i'm not making out ALL Parelli followers beat there horses over the head. As I have said before I have studyed Parelli for a course I did. You could adapt it to however you wish and if I looked deeply at what I do with my problem horses I do use some Parelli in my methods, the same as I use some of Monty Roberts methods to. But it is all adapted to my way of doing things and what the perticular horse I am dealing with at the time needs.
The person I was replying to said she didn't see a problem with the video and the method used. That reply was aimed at her not all Parelli users sorry if I offended you.

 

[pippinpie]

...............
The people who actually pay money to be taught by this woman are equally, if not more retarded. Can they not see theyre being conned out of their money and being made to look like idiots?! That woman was marching around with Linda attatched to her with that poor grey in tow.. someone needs to show her the video and tell her what a fool she looks. Perhaps i should start teaching people to ride with their hands in the air and their legs over the knee rolls because its a more natural way of riding..... for sure.
x

Pippinpie:

OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.

Can I refer you to your signature quote?!

Thank you for reminding me I did let the 'flavour' of the thread get to me there, but I can't stand by and be insulted by these rude people, who would probable never say those thing to my face, which in my book they don't deserve my usual courteous replies.

Note to myself: don't let other peoples failings unbalance my own emotional fitness.

 

[pippinpie]

.............
PP I have to day that if you still encounter problems with your horses which warrant the kind of response shown here by LP - maybe you weren't paying attention when you took your stage 4. .....

Where exactly did I say I was still or ever had any problems with my horses?

I can't think how you could get to that level of competence and not have well behaved horses.....

When you get to that level you are not just dealing with your own horses but others and with a multitude of problems needing many different approaches to solving and help dealing with. Phase 4 is just one 'tool' in my 'box of tricks'.

 

[siennamum]

Where exactly did I say I was still or ever had any problems with my horses?


When you get to that level you are not just dealing with your own horses but others and with a multitude of problems needing many different approaches to solving and help dealing with. Phase 4 is just one 'tool' in my 'box of tricks'.

Would your box of tricks include hitting your horse in the way Linda Parelli does?

To get a rude horse to back away from me I would hit a horse with my hand and I would hit it with the rope end of the lead rope. I would never hit with the metal end. This is what I am having real problems with., it's vicious.

I cannot accept that Parelli followers are claiming they dissaprove of Linda's methods and would never do such a thing. She and her husband are the leaders of this method, it's got their name. You kind of either agree with the methodology or you do similar stuff but it's not called Parelli - surely.

 

[joey's mum]

I firstly have to say that i am not horsey, and do not own one (though i am keen to learn all about them!!). However, having a 3 yr old son, i would have to say that discipline and learning is far more effective without using physical punishment. I don't know if horses are the same, but i would certainly be more open to training, etc, with TLC rather than a beating!

 

[Kallibear]

When you get to that level you are not just dealing with your own horses but others and with a multitude of problems needing many different approaches to solving and help dealing with. Phase 4 is just one 'tool' in my 'box of tricks'.

I think siennamum has raised an important point that's not been addressed.

Would you, pippinpie, have smacked the horse as hard as Linda Parelli was in order to make it step back.?

I'm an not diss-ing parelli (seperating parelli the method from Parelli the people) but interested to know: Do you genuinely think Linda Parelli dealt with that horse shown in an appropriate manner? Would you have done the same? Do you think that Linda shown a ideal and good grasp of 'natural horsemanship' that others should aspire to?

Many people are spitting undeserved bile and narrowminded hatred of parelli because they are struggling to seperate the leaders from the church, but the parelli worshipers are often just as bad and won't admit that maybe Linda isn't always great at what she does.

 

[Dobby]

Pippinpie:


Thank you for reminding me I did let the 'flavour' of the thread get to me there, but I can't stand by and be insulted by these rude people, who would probable never say those thing to my face, which in my book they don't deserve my usual courteous replies.

Note to myself: don't let other peoples failings unbalance my own emotional fitness.

It's one of my favourite quotes too, I do understand that it is hard to live up to it all the time

 

[pippinpie]

Would your box of tricks include hitting your horse in the way Linda Parelli does?

To get a rude horse to back away from me I would hit a horse with my hand and I would hit it with the rope end of the lead rope. I would never hit with the metal end. This is what I am having real problems with., it's vicious.

I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.

I cannot accept that Parelli followers are claiming they disapprove of Linda's methods and would never do such a thing. She and her husband are the leaders of this method, it's got their name. You kind of either agree with the methodology or you do similar stuff but it's not called Parelli - surely.

I don't think they necessarily disapprove per say, they may just feel uncomfortable watching someone else dealing with problem horse, I'm sure watching many other trainers dealing with problem horse is not always comfortable viewing!
Many people who use Parelli and are experienced horse people anyway find there own level of 'compliance' to the pure Parelli thinking, and thats another reason people grow out of anything, they get to a level in their own competence that they can make there own decision as to what they feel works for them.

 

[AengusOg]

I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.

So, are you saying that horses need to experience that sort of handling so that they know not to misbehave?

I don't think they necessarily disapprove per say, they may just feel uncomfortable watching someone else dealing with problem horse, I'm sure watching many other trainers dealing with problem horse is not always comfortable viewing!
Many people who use Parelli and are experienced horse people anyway find there own level of 'compliance' to the pure Parelli thinking, and thats another reason people grow out of anything, they get to a level in their own competence that they can make there own decision as to what they feel works for them.

Does that mean that 'many people' sooner or later find out that Parelli is not all it's cracked up to be, and that's why the sensible ones among them eventually disassociate themselves from it?

 

[siennamum]

I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.


I don't think they necessarily disapprove per say, they may just feel uncomfortable watching someone else dealing with problem horse, I'm sure watching many other trainers dealing with problem horse is not always comfortable viewing!
Many people who use Parelli and are experienced horse people anyway find there own level of 'compliance' to the pure Parelli thinking, and thats another reason people grow out of anything, they get to a level in their own competence that they can make there own decision as to what they feel works for them.

It's interesting but you sound like me when I am justifying using a whip, or using force to get a rude horse to comply. I also will come down quite hard on bad manners to ensure the horse is obedient & useful ongoing.

The difference is that I am pretty traditional in my approach and use techniques which are common knowledge amongst established horse people. Most people on this forum will do the same. I don't criticise traditional methods for being violent, as the Parelli methodology does, and then turn round and use violence.

There are 2 unanswered issues still for me.

1. where are all these dangerous horses? I don't know any, just a few unruly or rude youngsters. I have had lots of problem horses and ponies, generally the problems are with ridden work, as often as not they are pussycats on the ground. Generally problem horses are a problem because they have an underlying physical issue.
2. I haven't felt uncomfortable watching horse trainers generally managing problem horses. That is apart from the 3 clips I have now seen of Linda and Pat Parelli, both of whom use violent techniques on horses who they assure us are extremely dangerous but who patently are not. Would YOU hit a horse around the head with a metal clip for being a bit bargy?

 

[pippinpie]

So, are you saying that horses need to experience that sort of handling so that they know not to misbehave?

No

Does that mean that 'many people' sooner or later find out that Parelli is not all it's cracked up to be, and that's why the sensible ones among them eventually disassociate themselves from it?

No

 

[Kallibear]

I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.

no one is disputing that they do what is nessesary at the time to keep themselves and their horses safe.

But you still haven't answered my question - do you think THIS particular horse (who is clearly not dangerous) deserved that kind of treatment, or did LP get it wrong? Would YOU have done the same to the horse shown in the clip?

 

[pippinpie]

But you still haven't answered my question - do you think THIS particular horse (who is clearly not dangerous) deserved that kind of treatment, or did LP get it wrong? Would YOU have done the same to the horse shown in the clip?

Its not that simple to answer your questions I was not there dealing with that horse (Barney the big bay) I was not there to witness what problems its owner was having for Linda to have to take over and show the owner how to prevent the situation from getting out of hand. You and I don't know why or what the horse did, so we can't speculate as to whether it had been dangerous or was about to become dangerous, I saw this whole video more that two years ago, this material was taken from a DVD Level 1 course that has not been for sale by PNH for several years now and has been superseded by new material after PNH redesigned the way that levels are now assessed.
Would I use the method (phase 4 slap with the snap) shown in the clip: yes in certain circumstances that I felt it necessary I would.

 

[Tinypony]

I just want to make it clear to Laura, I do not use Parelli on my horses. Ever.
I used to be a PNH student, which is why I know rather a lot about it. Probably more than could be learnt by studying it a bit as part of a course. I made the informed choice to stop following the Parelli programme, it was an interesting start, but I wasn't comfortable with some of the things I was taught.

 

[LucyPriory]

Would you let a parent do this to a child? Even a violent child?

When you last lost your cool in traffic, the supermarket or whereever, would it be ok for someone to do this to you?

There is never any excuse for violence of this type.

 

[Lady La La]

I havent read all the replies, so appologies if this has already been brought up, But...

I was told by a parelli trainer (Who used to be my dog trainer) that one of the Whitikers uses Parelli trainers to break his horses, and was seen allowing them to warm up his horse at competitions?
Does anyone know if thats true?

 

[LauraWheeler]

I just want to make it clear to Laura, I do not use Parelli on my horses. Ever.
I used to be a PNH student, which is why I know rather a lot about it. Probably more than could be learnt by studying it a bit as part of a course. I made the informed choice to stop following the Parelli programme, it was an interesting start, but I wasn't comfortable with some of the things I was taught.

Couldn't agree with you more. I'm not saying I'm an expert but I studyed it in more detail than most people would have for the course. I find any method of NH intresting as as I said before I use little snippets from most methods. you can take the theory of parelli and adapt it to suit you and your horse.

 

[Lady La La]

Oh Dont worry about my post, Have since found on the interenet what I think she was going on about... Although it doesnt seem to be quite how she told it!

As you were

 

[JadeWisc]

This is STILL going on?

For something that is supposedly "mainly in America and should stay there" You people sure spend a LOT of time and effort worrying about it and discussing it on here.