Lisa Walsh (dog breeder Norwich)

Thanks Dobiegirl. I really appreciate your kind words. That is my aim now, to make more people aware of what goes on in our world. I wouldn't wish this hell on anyone! Well, maybe i would wish it on the evil breeders that do this stuff! ;)

Here is my letter that has been published in my local paper. I am more than happy for people to copy it and send it to your own local papers to be published if you wish, or even write your own letters. It's alot shorter than i wanted but a letter column does not offer much space. I would have liked a whole page dedicated to the subject but for now this will suffice.....

Thinking of buying a puppy Christmas? It sounds like a great gift but please be aware some people are willing to sell you sick or deformed pups.

Think before you buy, because so many animals become bewildered, unloved and abandoned. Make sure you research the breeder and don't buy online, from newspaper adverts, from a shop or a car boot sale without doing some homework.

Bad breeders will take puppies away from their mothers at three or four weeks and transport them hundreds of miles to other people to sell on. They get no care and miss out on vital nutrients from their mothers. It’s unimaginable cruelty and harmful to the puppies' socialisation skills and long-term health, and the poor parents are left in hidden hell holes - sometimes alone in filthy conditions with only enough food and water to keep them alive and breeding.

It is truly shocking what these poor animals are forced to go through. Sadly, the trade is fuelled by public demand, we need to educate ourselves to ensure we buy from a suitable source. Good breeders will put animal welfare first, not the money. Reputable breeders will give animals the time and care needed.

We bought our puppy Labrador last year as a Christmas gift for our severely sight-impaired six year old. Unfortunately, the breeder seemed nice and caring but we were very naive and did not do enough research. Our puppy was very ill when we got him home. He had an intestinal infection requiring antibiotics. Some infections are passed to humans. Then at just nine months old he was diagnosed with Severe Hip Dysplasia. We've found three litter mates all with the same condition. They all need both hips replacing. Our pup has had his first hip replaced and so far it has cost us more than £8,000. It’s heart-breaking to watch a much-loved animal suffer so much.

There are many websites you can visit for advice on buying a puppy. If you are unsure, ask a vet for advice and do your research before you buy. Ensure all the relevant paperwork is available for inspection when you visit a puppy. A vaccination certificate, a health check report from a vet, pedigree and Kennel Club certificates. Make sure you see mum and dad's health scores and registered names, check they correspond to the KC register. This can be checked online. Make sure puppy has been regularly wormed, treated for fleas and vaccinated. And remember, a KC registration does not guarantee a perfect puppy. It’s up to you to carry out the appropriate checks. Please visit these websites for more information www.puppylovecampaign.org www.dogstrust.org www.cariadcampaign.wordpress.com

Finally, please consider a rescue dog/puppy. So many are desperate for a loving home. If you think a breeder is acting irresponsibly, please report them to the RSPCA, the Licensing Council and Trading Standards.
Thank you for reading.


There is actually a couple of lists online that detail Commercial Breeders in the whole of the UK. The evil one is now on this list here.... ;)
http://www.puppylovecampaigns.org/sellers.shtml
or
http://dbelistuk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/wales.html
 
Unfortunately the list is far from comprehensive but if even one person look elsewhere for a puppy then it has worked.

While people keep handing over money the trade will continue.
 
Really s4sugar, you dont think the blogspot one in particular is comprehensive? Did you click on all the different areas? Like Wales for instance? There are loads on there. :eek: I think these have come from the local council lists that people have kindly obtained and reported. There is also an Irish version of this list. ;)
Personally i think we need more of these lists plastered all over the internet and also alongside adverts. Name and shame, that's what i say. :)
 
Sam77 said:
Really s4sugar, you dont think the blogspot one in particular is comprehensive? Did you click on all the different areas? Like Wales for instance? There are loads on there. :eek: I think these have come from the local council lists that people have kindly obtained and reported. There is also an Irish version of this list. ;)
Personally i think we need more of these lists plastered all over the internet and also alongside adverts. Name and shame, that's what i say. :)
Click to expand...

Yes really - I know of at least three puppy farms in Lincolnshire that are not listed as well as several that advertise as breeders but have pet shop licenses for brought in puppies.
Some on that list are very reputable breeders who show and work but happen to keep more than five bitches which is when the licensing kicks in and there are many more breeders with licenses that are not listed.



Far from comprehensive and completely misses the "sold from a house" lot.
 
s4sugar said:
Yes really - I know of at least three puppy farms in Lincolnshire that are not listed as well as several that advertise as breeders but have pet shop licenses for brought in puppies.
Some on that list are very reputable breeders who show and work but happen to keep more than five bitches which is when the licensing kicks in and there are many more breeders with licenses that are not listed.



Far from comprehensive and completely misses the "sold from a house" lot.
Click to expand...

The guys who put these lists together rely alot on public reports and help from the public and other organisations that are fighting against puppy farming. The names on the list come straight from the local councils. The website is a welfare project run by people fighting puppy farms, in many cases it stands to prove that a so called small home breeder is in fact a commercial puppy farmer!
If you think you have more names and information you could add to the list then please do contact the website owner. And if you feel there are reputable breeders on that list then please do contact the website with your concerns and i am sure they will be happy to help.
Do you know of any other lists of known bad breeders? I think this is the information that needs to be made more public somehow. Any ideas? :confused:
 
Happy New Year!! :D :p :D :p :D

Here's hoping the new year will bring love, hope, peace, happiness, wealth and most importantly good health, for us all & our lil furry friends.

I got a good feeling about 2013, lets hope we destroy this awful trade once and for all! ;)

Hope you all have a Wonderful New Year! :D
xxx
 
OK. So can someone please tell me how you can make sure that ANYONE buying a puppy asks the correct questions??? Ask to see hip and eye scores of both mum and dad for a start. A good friend decided to buy a Lab puppy recently, and asked me to go with her to view. I said she must ask the breeder what the hip and eye scores were for both dam and sire etc. She then made the appointments. One breeder hadn't had the dam tested, so I suggested we didn't even go and see the pups, but my friend insisted. What a surprise then, when the breeder couldn't produce any pedigree paperwork for his bitch, it had been lost in his house move, 12 months previous...the KC would issue a duplicate I suggested helpfully, No they can't he replied, I never registered her in my name when I bought her. Yeah, right. Walk away says I, but no, my friend was taken with a little pup, paid £250 deposit and the remaining £250 when she collected him 2 weeks later. Now so far so good, he seems a happy healthy little chap, but there were so many warning bells my friend chose to deliberately ignore. So what is the answer? I really, really wish I knew.
Another friend travelled 150 miles each way to buy a pup she'd seen on the internet. A Lab x Collie. It has blue eyes like a Husky. I suggested it might be a Husky x and she said funnily enough, there was a Husky in the house too...doh...
Personally speaking, and I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames for this, I would like to see all breeding of dogs stopped for 3 years. This would mean that many dogs in shelters could be rehomed, and no money coming in for puppy farmers, surely a good thing????
 
People need more education yes, but you can't account for, erm, I won't say stupid, that's unfair, but you can't exert overall control on people, it's their money, I'd prefer that people spent their money rewarding the people who do things right and put what little money they might get back for a well bred litter into their dogs, not paying for someone's new car or conservatory.

I've often thought that a moratorium on breeding might be the way forward, but you'd have to account for the need for service dogs of every hue, dogs of breeds at risk, with small or dwindling gene pools, dogs with great lines with lots to offer who may be ending their breeding career, people aiming to compete or excel at something with a set date or event in mind but without the opportunity to acquire a puppy bred for that purpose/from those lines for three years and miss that goal. Some people would have to be quite brave and selfish and it would take a lot of policing.

While I have no issue with worthwhile importation, the shysters could just import litters from other countries and sell them in the UK like a lot of puppy farmers are doing already.
 
#104
Sam77
Yearling

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27

Default Re: Lisa Walsh (dog breeder Norwich)
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartH View Post
Are none of you aware of this? How is she still trading?

Lisa Margaret Gaynor Walsh 16/09/1966 Case Type Date of Order Undertaking 12/06/2009 Length of order Court Number 5 Years 0 Month(s) 4750010532008 Last Known Address Southroyde Norwich Road Swainsthorpe Norwich NR14 8PU Unfit Conduct She, whilst a partner of a business named Marlewal, neglected to deal properly with her business affairs to the detriment of HM Revenue & Customs ( HMRC ). In particular, she caused Marlewal to submit false or incorrect VAT returns in respect of the VAT periods ending 08/2004 to 11/2006. The VAT returns for the VAT periods ending 08/2004 to 11/2006 were incorrect in that: Output tax of £263,168 and Input tax of £568,592 were declared in the VAT returns resulting in HMRC making VAT repayments of £305,374 into a bank account operated by Marlewal. HMRC raised a best judgement assessment of £468,985 against Marlewal, of which, at least £460,877 relates to the VAT periods between 08/2004 and 11/2006 based on output tax being over declared by the amount of £39,474 and input tax being over declared by the amount of £500,361. Following receipt of the best judgement assessment, accountants for Marlewal estimated that £277,565 was due, of which at least £269,457 relates to the VAT periods between 08/2004 and 11/2006. As a result, it is impossible to determine whether Marlewal was entitled to any of the VAT repayments totalling £305,374.20 which it received and Marlewal incurred a VAT liability of at least £269,457 with HMRC lodging a claim of £547,830.50.



Hi thanks for the info. I was not aware of alot of things about LW before i bought my pup last year. As many others too.
Do you have any other info on her?
Sam77 is offline Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 21-12-12, 09:52 AM #105
Sam77
Yearling

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27



Default Re: Lisa Walsh (dog breeder Norwich)
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartH View Post
It was also easy enough to find this under a search of Marlewal...........poor people getting that phone no.!

Hi

Myself and my Husband have lived in the village of Necton, Swaffham for nearly 3 years and when we moved into our brand new house we were given a Telephone number!! However, we have received so many calls asking if we are dog breeders!! We have obviously been given someones number who was a dog breeder in the area, Rose Cottage?? We do not know who these people are, however we have had calls regarding Labradors, Retrievers, German Shephards, Various Terriers, Boxers, and so on! Also people have asked for a Lisa and Mark Walsh, Welsh, Marsh and Masters! including numerous banks looking for them. Should anyone ever get in contact with these characters, could they kindly ask them to stop giving out our phone number and to inform those who have had puppies from them before, that they no longer, (what sounds like a puppy farm), trade under this number.




It may be easy enough to find info on her for you and yes, now there is a wealth of info on her. But when i researched her a year ago i coulnt find anything on her! I had no reason not to trust her and she is an outstanding actress and yes i fell for it. Like so many other victims.
It is easy to mock people but do you think that really helps us?
Yes, i feel stupid for falling for it but i had no intentions of breeding or showing. I just wanted a pet for my son!
I had no idea puppy farming even existed unill i found out about this evil bitch. Now i'm determined to make more people aware of the disgusting trade. If more people do what i'm doing rather than just sitting back and doing nothing except mocking victims, then maybe together as an animal loving country, we might just be able to stop the trade!
I will campaign untill it stops and i urge others to do the same, public awareness is the key to this. If the public know about the horrifying conditions these dogs live in and the deformed pups they produce, then i am sure the trade will die out eventually.
Ultimately our government need to make big changes and the KC and RSPCA need a very big kick up the butt to make things tougher for these evil people to operate. I've even heard of some RSPCA members taking backhanders!! Shocking! And the KC has several well known big commercial breeders on their accredited breeders list! How??? Its crazy! So i think it is a bit unfair for anyone to mock victims as even if you go by the KC lists, you could still end up with a puppy farm product.




Dear Sam77

I am sorry that you felt that your reading of my posts left you feeling 'mocked'...... The first you found helpful....... by the second you had changed your mind. Thank you to Suelin for standing in my stead....... Sam77 - the question mark in my post should have been the giveaway in the first & 'easy enough' in the second refers to internet availability........ Dear Sam 77 - this woman has taken more from me than you could stand....... and that is not a challenge to you - I only ask that you read and understand fully what we write before you think I or anybody else are against you..... we are all on the same side. I read your subsequent post & also wish you a Happy New Year!! God Willing none of us will have to deal with the like of the 'Title' subject again in either Dogs or Arabian horses.

Hope this clears things up for you & wish both you and your Dog well!!
 
A Dog breeders licence is required when 5 or more litters are bred in a 12 month period.

A Pet Shop Licence is required for anyone that buy in litters of puppies from breeders (usually from puppy farmers/battery dog farmers as no reputable breeder would sell litters of puppies to a dealer or pet shop). The pet shop licence holder does not have to actually sell the puppies from a pet shop (a shop on the street) Councils are known to grant pet shop licenses to people who keep the puppies in a garden shed, barn or porta cabin as examples of the accomodtion of known premises buying in and reselling puppies.

Many people have been caught out when answering ads when looking for a puppy thinking they are visiting the breeder to view the puppies, only later to realise that the puppy was bred elsewhere usually Wales or Ireland but cannot rule out Eastern Europe either.

That is why it is so important to do your homework before leaving home by making sure you have all the facts and have checked everything out first before visiting the premises. Contact the breed secretary of the pedigree breed you wish to purchase first before doing anything else. The KC has the full list of breed secretaries.

Lisa Walsh is due in Court this month you will be pleased to hear.
 
puppyalert said:
A Dog breeders licence is required when 5 or more litters are bred in a 12 month period.

A Pet Shop Licence is required for anyone that buy in litters of puppies from breeders (usually from puppy farmers/battery dog farmers as no reputable breeder would sell litters of puppies to a dealer or pet shop). The pet shop licence holder does not have to actually sell the puppies from a pet shop (a shop on the street) Councils are known to grant pet shop licenses to people who keep the puppies in a garden shed, barn or porta cabin as examples of the accomodtion of known premises buying in and reselling puppies.

Many people have been caught out when answering ads when looking for a puppy thinking they are visiting the breeder to view the puppies, only later to realise that the puppy was bred elsewhere usually Wales or Ireland but cannot rule out Eastern Europe either.

That is why it is so important to do your homework before leaving home by making sure you have all the facts and have checked everything out first before visiting the premises. Contact the breed secretary of the pedigree breed you wish to purchase first before doing anything else. The KC has the full list of breed secretaries.

Lisa Walsh is due in Court this month you will be pleased to hear.
Click to expand...

So pleased to hear LW is being brought to book and hope for a good outcome, one which will frighten others of her ilk to change their ways. I also hope its well publicised and helps get the message out there to the general public. These people would go out of business overnight if only people did some research.
 
Rose Folly said:
Well done!Thanks to this thread hope Lisa b....y Walsh has an absolutely miserable Christmas. People like her should be named, shamed, and fined out of their socks - and banned from keeping animals for life.

I'm sad so many of you have had puppies from her, but hopefully they are now much loved members of your family.

But WHY, WHY, WHY do you buy from breeders? Go to your local rescue centre. You will get a dog (at a very reasonable price) who will be just as wonderful as any pup you've spent £100s on.

Here speaks one who has only had rescue dogs for the last 40 years - I've never regretted one, and you set an example as well as having the best friends ever! (Our latest has prevented two burglaries, one to our house and one to the house next door). You don't need a piece of paper to do that..................
Click to expand...

Thanx for your comments, they are all very much loved and they have alot of love to give too!
From now on i will only go to rescue centres! Sorry, but been totally put off breeders now. I know there are very good ones out there but my opinions on dog breeding are changing i think.
When i look at how many are in rescue centres it brings the question, why is dog breeding still allowed when a very large amount end up abandonned, unloved, treated inhumanly and left in rescue centres! :mad:
 
Never again will I even attempt to get a dog from a rescue it was a nightmare I bought a pup after months of shilly shallying about and stupid red tape and rules
It was cheaper I know her parents she was 4 weeks old when I met her and she is a fit strong healthy dog from health tested parents
Reason for refusal was the house was too tidy and the carpets were new and cream
Reason I thought we would be good candidates
close to a field and foot path
long time dog owners
six foot new fence round the garden
Money for food vets insurance etc
competitive obedience trainers at one time
Not ancient but not young so no young children in the house all the time
I would love to have helped a dog in need but not now

As to the breeder I hope they throw the book at her as it is people like that that destroy the reputation of the good breeders
 
Dobiegirl said:
Sam I really admire people like you who by telling their story in the hope that it will stop someone else making the mistakes you made. Anyone now who googles this breeders name will find the horror stories that they created. I just wish all these breeders could be accessed by google so people would know who were to be avoided. The more people come forward and report them and use sites like this to tell their story the more chance they will go out of business.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for your kind comments. :)
It was thanks to another victim telling their story that i became aware of where Alfie came from.
I've tried my hardest to get some sort of justice for these poor guys and many of the other victims have too. Finally things are moving and hopefully all our hard work will pay off soon. We've successfully removed all her online adverts, before xmas, so that should have made a nice dent in her disgusting business. But, she's already using different names and different puppies to advertise now. We'll keep the pressure on. Unfortunately she probably wont get what she deserves and may just move on. I'm really surprised someone has not put her 6 foot under by now but hopefully one day she will upset the wrong person, if you know what i mean. ;)
There is alot of info about the evil one online and she will eventually be publicly exposed, i'll make sure of that, things are already set up! Just a matter of time! ;)
My main focus now is to educate others and i really do urge others to do the same. The more people are aware of this trade the better. No one in their right mind would knowingly buy from scum like this, knowing what torture the breeding dogs go through. The trade would die out forever! So as PuppyLove say "If we dont buy, They wont die"
Thanks again Dobiegirl, you've been a star! xxx:)
 
puppyalert said:
A Dog breeders licence is required when 5 or more litters are bred in a 12 month period.

A Pet Shop Licence is required for anyone that buy in litters of puppies from breeders (usually from puppy farmers/battery dog farmers as no reputable breeder would sell litters of puppies to a dealer or pet shop). The pet shop licence holder does not have to actually sell the puppies from a pet shop (a shop on the street) Councils are known to grant pet shop licenses to people who keep the puppies in a garden shed, barn or porta cabin as examples of the accomodtion of known premises buying in and reselling puppies.

Many people have been caught out when answering ads when looking for a puppy thinking they are visiting the breeder to view the puppies, only later to realise that the puppy was bred elsewhere usually Wales or Ireland but cannot rule out Eastern Europe either.

That is why it is so important to do your homework before leaving home by making sure you have all the facts and have checked everything out first before visiting the premises. Contact the breed secretary of the pedigree breed you wish to purchase first before doing anything else. The KC has the full list of breed secretaries.

Lisa Walsh is due in Court this month you will be pleased to hear.
Click to expand...

This highlights just how bad our laws are and how easy it is for these scum bags to make quick money. Our laws desperately need changing. x
 
Update on Alfie....

Such great news....After 14 long weeks of rest and restricted exercise, we finally have good news. There is no sign of the implant loosening and no more swelling! :D The swelling has actually gone down a bit which is fantastic as it usually takes up to a year for that kind of swelling to go down! So that is more than we were hoping for! It looks good and his specialist is very happy. He said his muscles are already feeling good in that leg too which i was surprised at coz i thought it looked like his muscles were gone, shows how much i know!

Plus the right hip, although looks and is actually very severe seems to have improved a bit! Some bony growth has built up and seems to be making a false kind of socket which seems to be stabilising the joint for now. As he is not very lame on that leg and doesn't seem to be in too much pain with it, we can put off having that one replaced for now and let his left heal properly and get stronger. His right hip will more than likely still need replacing in the future but until it starts to become a problem for him, he should be ok on just pain relief for now. We can even see if reducing the painkillers makes any difference coz he's only on half the dosage for his weight anyway.

We can now slowly start to increase his exercise and work up to two 45 min walks a day by 3 months time. We then have to phone and discuss his progress, then increase to two 90 min walks a day/normal activities by 6 months, phone again to discuss and then all being well, we go back to see him in a year!! :D

Can't quite believe it yet, it's not quite sunk in that he is finally getting better! After all the struggle over the last 3 months since having the op done, he is finally getting there and we can look towards the future a bit more positively! We can let him be a puppy again, Yay.

The task now is not to let him over do things too quickly. He is a complete loon, and his sisters all sound the same. They are all doing good too you will be happy to hear. It's gonna be a crazy day when these guys meet up, can't wait! :D

So, here's to 2013. It's been a fantastic start for us already and now we can do all the things we had planned for last year. I have a feeling this year is gonna be a good one! Hope it is a good year for all you guys too. :D

Lots of luv
Sam & Alfie. xxxx:D
 
What a terrible story this thread has told, & i'm so sorry that so many of you & your dogs have had to suffer due to terrible low life human beings only out for what they can get. We all make mistakes, some harder to recover from than others, but it becomes experience if we learn from & share it. Well done to the major contributors in this situation for their committent & determination in seeing justice done. Let's hope someone rots in Hell.

To the person who said they'd never get a dog from a rescue home - you've obviously just visited the wrong one - there are lots out there - don't tar them all with the same brush.

Good luck Alfie, let's hope you & your young owner get to catch up on all the fun you've missed out on very soon xx

(From an owner of one rescue dog, one left behind by the gypsies, & two pups who were just in desperate need of good homes xx)
 
I am delighted Alfie is doing better and good luck with your campaign

I can assure you it wasnt only one rescue and I am not the only one thoroughly fed up with the red tape and stupid rules and went out and bought a puppy.
Since I first went looking I have seen far more stories maybe anecdotal and not true but hundreds of people are turned down for the silliest of reasons.
One was turned down because she lived on a farm and had too much space. People are regularly turned down because they have an elderly dog and it hasnt been neutered so they are not allowed a rescue. Another turned down because her garden was down a flight of stairs I could go on by all means try and adopt it is a great thing to do if you can stand the nonsense but personally never again I truly believe it is easier to adopt a child than a dog now a days.
Maybe I wont want to adopt anyway now as I dont think I would want to mutilate a dog because of fashion and silly rules either if neutering is not needed on medical grounds it is immoral to me and shouldnt be done for convenience but then I am responsible enough not to breed my dog. I can also deal with entire behaviour and a b1tch being in season
 
Last edited:
windandrain, I agree with a lot of your post re rescues, I used to do homechecks for a breed rescue and used to get very frustrated with some of their restrictions, so much so that I often applied my own common sense rather than the set in concrete rules.
However, I would take issue with you re spaying, I am sure you are responsible enough to deal with a bitch in season, but personally that is not the reason I would choose to spay. I have had bitches all my life and have only had one accidental mating, and that wasn't even unplanned as such, we intended to use the dog just not at that season, and the bitch was on her 23rd day! However, I have had bitches with pyometra, 2 survived after surgery, but 2 years ago I lost my old GSD bitch to a closed pyo, she had very few symptoms and although she came through the op she didn't recover and was pts 3 days later. For this reason I have just had my bitch done at 4 years old and her daughter will be done in the next 12 months or so. To lose a bitch to something that could have been avoided is very hard.:(
 
It amazes me how many people think they are the perfect home in their mind, but actually are not and it probabaly would surprise people if I taped some home checks and you actually heard what I heard or saw;)

I don't turn many down I can usually tell if someone is gormless over the phone and that saves a visit.
These are dogs we have cared for and we wish them to have the best life and home they can after what some of them have been through we don't wish to just place them in a home for the sake of it!

I will rehome to people who work, to people in flats to people with entire dogs, to homes with young children, to the elderly, to people living on a farm/with land.

However a few scenarios here (it depends on the home) and each one individually, one home I went to there was an entire basset and the whole time I was there it humped the living daylights out of the very elderly basset female, not once did the lazy arse owner stop that dog and the elder bitch looked thoroughly fed up (she wanted a tiny jrt) we had!, was I going to place her in there to be raped repeatidly by this dog whilst the feckless owner did nowt like she did with this ancient bitch (was I hell):rolleyes:
Does not mean to say I have never homed a bitch in a home with an entire dog (ours are all neutered) you can't save a dogs life destined for a yellow bag and risk it being (bred from)

An upstairs flat with steep/long stair way, would I rehome a small puppy in toilet training stages in there (probably not) would I rehome a fully trained dog in there (yes). We have gone there and done that and rehomed dogs into flats and aswell as the good responsible homes we have also had returns (because the dog could not wait as long as it took the owner to get dressed and have breakfast and fanny on expecting the dog to cross it's legs esp on a morning!

Someone with farm land/ unsecured excess land (indeed they can have a dog) but they must have a fenced off area no matter how small, as much as I hear the whole (it has a million acres to run in) it also has to settle in and be kept on lead for a few weeks and have a garden for the toilet, esp a dog who is not overly keen on doing it's business on the lead and if it's a pup that needs out every few hours then sure we can be told it will be put on a lead and taken out but thats not going to happen in all cases and sure enough it hasn not and the dog bounces right back;).
Here is a god example, a man phones for a dog (lurcher) to be precise, lives on a farm with 4 acres, I ask does he have any secure garden what so ever?"no" he said, but maybe it would have been an idea to do that as my last dog ran off and was killed 4 weeks ago when I let him out, I did not think he would stray off the land, I opened the door and he was off like a shot":rolleyes:, this was a dog with previous good recall! great I thought (and you want a lurcher I have had in my care for the last 6 months) NO!
I have even rehomed to people with no garden who have no choice but to go out and walk the dog however with acres of land to many are far to tempted to let a new dog run off to soon, for as many sensible people there are gormless people simples!

I however do find that whatever I request and I think is well in reason people do it, we are a good reputable rescue and put alot of work into our dogs so I feel people are willing to meet us half way in erecting secure areas, heightening fences, and we have had people neuter dogs also after a discussion, alot admitting when asked the dog is "a serial humper" the last was a gentleman with a mini daxi, our female was of course neutered but the man knew this dog was a humping machine and so we asked him to neuter him as we did not want her humped 24/7 and he did as we asked and got the lovely little daxi girl we had (what so hard about that).

I have even had my OH put fences up and gates on for people in order for them to have a dog!:p (free of charge)

The breeder in question, well she sounds like a money grabbing greedy irresponsible ass wipe who will also give anyone a dog for some £££££££££!
 
Windandrain, I too hope you are lucky enough not to ever have a bitch go through pyometra. No, I hadn't heard of it either until we nearly lost my 12 year old dog of a lifetime.

Sam, you must love Alfie very much, you are a much more committed owner than I would be in those circumstances :o
 
I have had a bitch with pyometra she survived her surgery and lived a good few years longer but I still wont spay my bitch unless it is as a medical necessity Lots of people spay at after the first season OK for some but disasterous for others It doesnt prevent mammary cancer and bears quite a high risk of incontinence. Spay before a first season and the risk of cancer is reduced but the risk of incontinence is increased not every entire bitch will suffer from Pyometra but some will. There are several on line reports to substantiate these facts and a lot of research I do know I would rather take a chance on a girl getting pyo than take a chance on either having an incontinent dog for 12 years or more or having it on medication for that time. Spaying can also make a bitch more aggressive
There is of course some merit in spaying if you dont want to worry about pyo
or puppies especially on medical grounds
Apart from the obvious humping things again which may or may not be cured by castration why would anyone castrate a male. It is often the cause of dogs becoming more aggressive and can alter the metabolism to make them fat and lazy ok you may say keep the dog on a diet but poor ****** wont have many pleasures in life if it isnt allowed to eat.
There is no guarantee castration will stop males fighting either as neutered animals can and do become more aggressive
 
Nothing is fail safe and to say spaying after a first season wont prevent mammary cancer is a little lacking in info, more accuratley to say that spaying before a first or after a first will drastically reduce to completely nul the risks of mammary cancer would be more accurate, the more the reproductive system is left to mature and the more seasons a bitch has the more risk she has of mammary cancers in mid to later life, which of course does not stop there as we well know mammary cancers can metastize at a alarming rate so by the time you have found even a pea size lump it's probably to late even after that mammary strip op!
My dogs get a descent meal infact im feedng more now than before neuter (all of them) as they get a lot of exercise (that is where their lifes pleasures come from;) alot of post op weight gain is due to the initial rest period then lack of exercise there after and alot of those dogs would be more likely to be porkers before the op.
I am also going to have to strongly disagree with males or females becoming more aggressive after castration/spay again im not just comparing pets here im talking about dealing with hundreds of dogs in a year, year in and year out and can tell you I have never ever seen heightened aggression manifest/or be an after issue as consiquence of neutering dogs or bitches infact quite the opposite:confused:

I have never had a bitch with mammary cancer or incontinence, I currently have 2 large breed mature bitches over 10 and a smaller/medium breed bitch over 10 and a medium bitch over 6 with no incontinence issues and all neutered when younger however my friend has an incontinent 7 year old rough collie who she can't have spayed and she is funnily enough incontinent;) and as you can imagine she stinks due to her hair:( Again there is a risk of incontinence in spaying esp with larger breeds but larger breed bitches weather neutered or not commonly suffer incontinence later in life, at work we have a fair number of entire bitches on propalin/incurin interestingly. And to add I have seen many bitches go through pyo some pull through and some don't and it's horrendous:( and indeed im affraid I would choose to have an incontinent bitch on meds than have her go through a pyo. But each to their own:) fredom of choice and all that, I have 10 well well behaved and very slender and healthy and happy dogs all neutered:)
I can't say I see many lazy dogs either, generally lazy owners unless they are feeding their dogs to the point of cruelty or the have thyroid issues or are on steroids:D.
I can answer the dog castration question too from my own point of view.....I don't want them to be at heightened risk of testicular cancer, if I dont spot it in time there is a heightened risk of metastizing before the average owner would have any clue unless ball feeling/spotting is carried out regurlarly):D also to cut the risk of prostate cancer. I don't need to do it for behavioural reasons but understand why owners do as it does in most cases than NOT calm down over amourous sexual behaviours and can make a dog more bidable and calm aggression, again I can compare plenty of before and afters:)
 
Last edited:
Totally agree Cayla, I would rather have my bitch still here and incontinent than lose her to pyo!
With regards to the other points, I have never found heightened aggression or weight gain in spayed bitches or males (only had 2 of the latter) but of course not had many, the fact that you can say the same after seeing so many neutered dogs is enough for me.
 
As you say each to their own There is a lot of science to support my view as there is support yours it is up to the individual.
I have seen a wonderful labrador bitch who used to play with mine turn aggressive overnight attacking everything in sight so I have seen the increased aggression and on more than one occasion in both sexes
 
As you say each to their own There is a lot of science to support my view as there is support yours it is up to the individual.
I have seen a wonderful labrador bitch who used to play with mine turn aggressive overnight attacking everything in sight so I have seen the increased aggression and on more than one occasion in both sexes
Click to expand...

Please post some links to the science that show that spaying after the first season doesn't prevent mammary cancer; that the risk of incontinence is high after spaying; that dogs (both sexes) with no previous behaviour problems become more aggressive "overnight" after neutering; and that neutered dogs become fat and lazy if allowed to eat. Unfortunately, I seem to have missed all those research studies and articles that you are referring to - I would therefore be very interested in reading them. (Particularly as they apparently contradict what I see every day in my working life.)

As you say, there is plenty of support that show the opposite - i therefore won't bore you with quoting the extensive research that is available. However, for the benefit of those less knowledgeable than yourself I can summarise: the risk of mammary cancer is significantly reduced if spayed young - at least up to the age of two years - less research is done on older bitches, but there is belief later spaying also does have an effect; there is certainly a risk of urinary incontinence, but the risk is far from high; well-socialised dogs with a normal, strong mentality and no previous behaviour problems do not turn aggressive just because they are neutered - however, it may occur in anxious males that become even more insecure and anxious when they lose their testosterone (other aggressive neutered dogs will have had behaviour issues before the op - they are often neutered because the owner wrongfully thought that castration would "calm them down" without doing anything further to improve the behaviour problems); nowadays there are plenty of types of dog food available where the neutered dog can eat the same volume and be as satisfied as entire dogs without becoming fat or lazy - fat and lazy neutered dogs are purely a result of bad management from the owners, and if those people had entire dogs they too would most likely be just as fat and lazy.

I am sure you also haven't missed the studies that have found that up to 75% of entire bitches suffer from pyometra/cystic endometrial hyperplasia or similar uterine problems at some point in their life - all conditions that are cured (or prevented) by ovariohysterectomy. Furthermore, you are probably also aware of that approximately 71% of entire bitches develop mammary cancer. For anyone else that are surprised by these high percentages, I can tell you that they correlate pretty accurately with what we see in this country where the majority of dogs and bitches are kept entire. Very different from countries where neutering at a young age is a lot more common.

As you say - each to their own - you do what you think best with your dogs and I do with mine. However, when you say there is plenty of science that show the opposite of what several of us that work with hundreds of dogs every year see again and again - I am sure there are others that also would like to see it.
 
Good post Synne and I agree with MM,Cayla and CC:) Over the years I had quite a few dogs(nothing like the amount of Cayla) and had them spayed & neutered and never had a problem with incontinence,aggression or running to fat and their heads havnt shrunk :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top