Lisa Walsh (dog breeder Norwich)

Behavioral and Physical Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs (Canis familiaris)

Summary of findings detailed in a Masters thesis submitted to and accepted by Hunter College

by Parvene Farhoody in May, 2010.

© 2010 Parvene Farhoody & M. Christine Zink

Spaying and neutering domestic dogs is generally accepted as a relatively benign procedure conducted on millions of dogs each year. The view of spaying and neutering as benign and perhaps even beneficial to dogs has been based on extremely limited scientific study of how gonadectomy affects dog behavior and physiology. To investigate this, a 101-question survey called the Canine Behavior and Research Questionnaire was used to collect information on seven behavioral characteristics for 10,839 dogs. The C-BARQ is a qualitative behavioral assessment instrument created by James Serpell and his colleagues at the Center for the Interaction of Animals and Society at the University of Pennsylvania. At this time, it is the only behavioral assessment questionnaire that has been peer-reviewed and found to be reliable and valid (Hsu & Serpell, 2003). Behavioral characteristics of intact male and female dogs were compared with those of four groups of neutered dogs: those neutered at or before 6 months, between 7 and 12 months, between 13 and 18 months, and after 18 months. Our data showed that the behavior of neutered dogs was significantly different from that of intact dogs in ways that contradict the prevailing view. Among the findings, neutered dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable, and less trainable than intact dogs. In addition, we measured eight individual bone lengths plus the height of 202 agility competition dogs to determine whether gonadectomy affected bone lengths. Preliminary analysis revealed significant differences in bone growth between the intact and neutered groups. These findings strongly support the need for an immediate re-evaluation of the current recommendation to spay or neuter dogs to prevent or treat behavior problems, and an equally pressing need to more fully examine the wide range of physical effects of spaying and neutering pet dogs.



Aggression scores in male dogs neutered at different ages compared with intact male dogs. There was a significantly higher aggression score in neutered dogs as compared to intact dogs regardless of the age at which the dogs were neutered.



. Aggression scores in female dogs spayed at different ages compared with intact female dogs. There was a highly significant increase in aggression score of dogs spayed at 12 months or earlier as compared to intact dogs.

Fear and anxiety scores in male dogs neutered at different ages compared with intact male dogs. There was a significant increase in fear and anxiety scores in neutered dogs as compared to intact dogs regardless of the age at which the dogs were neutered Figure 4. Fear and anxiety scores in neutered dogs compared with intact dogs. A, all intact females (green) compared with all neutered females (red). B, all intact males (green) compared with all neutered males (red). C, all intact male and female dogs (green) compared with all neutered male and female dogs. D, all intact and neutered females (open triangle) compared with all intact and neutered males (open circle). In all cases,spayed or neutered dogshad higher excitability scores.





. Comparison of bone length between the scapula and ulna of intact and neutered light-boned large dogs. From left: intact male dogs compared with neutered male dogs, intact female dogs compared with neutered female dogs, all intact dogs compared with all neutered dogs. Spayed females had significantly longer scapula:ulna ratios than intact females.

Comparison of bone length between the scapula and metacarpals of intact and neutered light-boned large dogs. From left: intact male dogs compared with neutered male dogs, intact female dogs compared with spayed female dogs, all intact dogs compared with all neutered dogs. Spayed females had significantly longer scapula:metacarpal ratios than intact females.

Summary

The above data is just a small sample of the significant data that were determined in this study. By using large a sample of dogs than any used previously to examine behavior in dogs, we found significant correlations between neutering dogs and increases in aggression, fear and anxiety, and excitability, regardless of the age at which the dog was neutered. There were also significant correlations between neutering and decreases in trainability and responsiveness to cues. The other three behavioral categories examined (miscellaneous behavior problems, attachment and attention-seeking behavior, and separation-related behavior) showed some association with neutering, but these differed more substantially depending on the age at which the dog was neutered. The overall trend seen in all these behavioral data was that the earlier the dog was neutered, the more negative the effect on the behavior. A difference in bone length was found between neutered and intact dogs, suggesting that neutering has an effect on bone growth, which may be related to other orthopedic effects documented in the literature. Examination of changes in bone length of gonadectomized dogs is continuing.
Sorry cant find the original now there were graphs to demonstrate the statistics

I may add that there are very good reasons to spay or neuter but not ones I am prepared to risk for my dog Your experience is obviously different to mine
The only bitch I had spayed due to pyo subsequently had to be PTS due to noise phobia it was so bad it caused her to self harm and destroy her feet even simple noises of every day living caused her to panic and bite and tear at her own feet and skin until she tore great chunks out of herself Some people may think that is acceptable and possible to control but believe me I tried everything possible including every drug under the sun to keep her
The black bitch I referred to earlier was a sweet heart and is now growling and attacking other dogs she is still kind with humans though so that is a bonus. A friends jack russel was neutered because he humped thing he still does in fact he does it more
I have owned in my lifetime more than 20 bitches only one has ever had pyo. She was one of two I had spayed the other was a german shepherd who died at a younger age due to brain cancer she was only 7 every other dog I have owned has lived to be in their teens even the one who I had to have PTS was 12 going on 13.
I have never had a dog with dementia, testicular cancer, bone cancer or behavioural issues apart from the one with noise phobia
I have always had breeds that according to the lists are most likely to suffer these things labradors, german shepherds, cavaliers, newfoundlands and golden retrievers.
I am certain if I looked I would be able to find more evidence and as I say it each to their own but is the trend to neuter harming dogs well I dont know what I do know is that purely for the reason of controlling unwanted litters it is a good idea for many owners as they cannot be trusted to be responsible and not have accidental matings and mixed breed puppies and of course it is essential that one or other of the dogs is neutered in a household of mix sex animals as that is asking for trouble.
At the beginning of this discussion I did say I wasnt sure but nothing anyone has said has convinced me in a single dog household that is necessary or even advisable to have my dog spayed
 
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I completely disagree (for reasons already extensively stated). Are you a bloke, per chance? And when you went to the dog rescue place which declined to let you have a dog, and made you vow never to rescue a dog again, did you happen to voice these opinions?
 
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windand rain said:
I have had a bitch with pyometra she survived her surgery and lived a good few years longer but I still wont spay my bitch unless it is as a medical necessity
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Huge contradiction! You then went on to say that there is some merit in spaying if you don't want to have to worry about pyo or puppies on medical grounds! If your bitch had been my dog she would never have had pyo in the first place and not have had to endure surgery.
 
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No very much a female and of course you are entitles to your opinion and I mine. Again no I did not discuss these views as I was open minded and quite prepared to listen to any view. I also did my research after I had bought my recent addition.
Apart from it being a necessary evil because people are too irresponsible to care for entire dogs what good reason is there . There is as still a small chance of a spayed bitch getting pyo although admittedly smaller than an entire one. There are if you had read the research compelling reasons not to spay or neuter Bone cancer increasing to up to 60% being one.
Yes it is a contradiction that was to concede that some people will never be able to care for an entire properly. The only reason in my view to neuter is for health grounds but some are blinded to the other risks How many people are Making informed decisions on whether to spay or neuter were you as an member of the general public actually told of the risks of incontinence, bone cancer and increased aggression I very much doubt it
As I said I have one pyo in more than 20 bitches over a life time and never a case of testicular cancer the risk of which is under 1% anyway
Maybe I have been lucky
Before I studied the consequences I was a bit ambivalent about spay neuter not sure why I was against it but it didnt sit right to mutilate a dog and perform unnecessary surgery for what seems on the surface laziness and irresponsibility.
As to my bitch never having had pyo if she had been spayed maybe not but she still would have suffered the spay surgery which is exactly the same surgery if less of an emergency. Dogs can and do die of the spay surgery too as with any major surgery there is always a risk.
As I have repeatedly said It is the owners choice but I do wish they were fully informed before making the decision then it is up to them. I went along with the spay if you dont want to breed ine because we had a bitch and dog but I wish I never had my beautiful German Shepherd bitch died at 7 years old due to cancer I dont know if it was the spay that caused that or not just like you can never 100% tell me it wasnt
 
I think having an unspayed bitch at home that isnt being used for breeding purposes is selfish and irresponsible.

You are preventing fatal conditions by spaying such as pyo's, massively reducing the risk of mammary cancer, and remove the chance of phantom pregnancies - why would you not want to do that for your animal?? If your bitch gets an open pyo you may be lucky in saving her life but if its closed it is much harder to spot!! Why risk your bitches life with a condition that you can prevent!!

In 10 years i've only seen 1 bitch have post spaying incontinence! I think thats pretty good odds! Cant understand why people wouldnt want to have it done!

Not to mention the cost implication - people tell me they cant afford to have their bitch spayed - either dont have a pet then or get a voucher or assistance from charity! It'll cost a damn site more if your bitch gets a pyo!
 
Yes maybe in your view in mine the risks of cancer and incontinence and death from the surgery is just as valid a reason for not doing so I will repeat yet again everyone has the right to decide what is best for there dog based on informed consent. I have found that the negative information is pretty much ignored or brushed aside. You have had one in 10 years in 50 years of owning dogs I have had one with pyo. Individuals have to base their decisions on either their own experiences or advice from a vet, the vet may well be advocating spay and neuter on financial grounds after all it is a nice little earner for them.
I would quite happily spay or neuter if a vet could give a very good reason for performing major surgery on a dog that didnt include a 23% possibility of infection in the future or the belief that it could prevent testicular cancer which is only a 1% risk anyway. The op isnt pain free it is debilitating for a short time and could quite possibly be construed as cruelty in its own right. Spay on medical grounds I have no issue with if a bitch gets pyo then obviously it is a medical emergency. Only 1% of sufferers of pyo die so that is 1% of 23% pretty good odds I expect. A risk level of about .23% of the female population will die.
Cost implications are the same If you cant afford emergency care for your dog then you shouldnt own a dog either
 
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I wonder if anyone has done any research on dogs which are intact and b******d off after a bitch in season and been killed on the road, I know of 3 in the last 2 years. Thieves are attracted to intact dogs to be used for breeding purposes another plus in my book for getting your dogs fixed. We have an epidemic in this country of dogs in rescue all the result of not neutering or spaying, a push from someone like the Dogs Trust and the RSPCA for cheap subsidized neutering and spaying would probabley halve this.
 
eatmyshorts said:
Huge contradiction! You then went on to say that there is some merit in spaying if you don't want to have to worry about pyo or puppies on medical grounds! If your bitch had been my dog she would never have had pyo in the first place and not have had to endure surgery.
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I'm sorry, but I presume that you mean that had it been your bitch she would have been spayed. And it sounds as if you seem to know of a way to spay a bitch without any surgery that needs to be endured?


Personally I believe that there is dangers with going through anaesthesia/surgery, whether that is to spay a healthy animal or to spay due to pyometra, even though there is probably less risk to do surgery on a healthy animal, it doesn't mean that there is 100% no risk involved.
 
eatmyshorts said:
Huge contradiction! You then went on to say that there is some merit in spaying if you don't want to have to worry about pyo or puppies on medical grounds! If your bitch had been my dog she would never have had pyo in the first place and not have had to endure surgery.
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Oh do tell..you know how to spay without major surgery?Do tell the RVC they are obviously way behind the times!:D
 
windand rain said:
I have had a bitch with pyometra she survived her surgery and lived a good few years longer but I still wont spay my bitch unless it is as a medical necessity Lots of people spay at after the first season OK for some but disasterous for others It doesnt prevent mammary cancer and bears quite a high risk of incontinence. Spay before a first season and the risk of cancer is reduced but the risk of incontinence is increased not every entire bitch will suffer from Pyometra but some will. There are several on line reports to substantiate these facts and a lot of research I do know I would rather take a chance on a girl getting pyo than take a chance on either having an incontinent dog for 12 years or more or having it on medication for that time. Spaying can also make a bitch more aggressive
There is of course some merit in spaying if you dont want to worry about pyo
or puppies especially on medical grounds
Apart from the obvious humping things again which may or may not be cured by castration why would anyone castrate a male. It is often the cause of dogs becoming more aggressive and can alter the metabolism to make them fat and lazy ok you may say keep the dog on a diet but poor ****** wont have many pleasures in life if it isnt allowed to eat.
There is no guarantee castration will stop males fighting either as neutered animals can and do become more aggressive
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FinnishLapphund said:


I'm sorry, but I presume that you mean that had it been your bitch she would have been spayed. And it sounds as if you seem to know of a way to spay a bitch without any surgery that needs to be endured?


Personally I believe that there is dangers with going through anaesthesia/surgery, whether that is to spay a healthy animal or to spay due to pyometra, even though there is probably less risk to do surgery on a healthy animal, it doesn't mean that there is 100% no risk involved.
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To the last two people - Oh for goodness sake, don' t be so pedantic, I am sure you know fine well what I meant by the context in which I was speaking. I wrote that when I was tired so shoot me!
 
I did wonder and I keep repeating you are entitled to your opinion so I hope no one is going to be rude to each other.
You would appear not to have read or understood, I am not sure which, the basis on which I have made my decision I am prepared to accept that you and some others prefer to spay and take the risk of your dog dying during unnecessary surgery or from cancer or from the many other diseased that spaying can cause including a tenuous link to diabetes and a stronger link to thyroid issues.
The chance of a dog dying of pyometra surgery is 0.25% I dont have the figures for those who die of pyo itself so I cannot comment but less than a quarter of bitches will get pyo according to the statistics I have seen.
Or those that die during spay surgery so again I cannot answer that one just that every surgery carries a risk on its own
All I am asking is tha people are given the whole story before they are asked to decide on neutering their animals
 
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eatmyshorts said:
To the last two people - Oh for goodness sake, don' t be so pedantic, I am sure you know fine well what I meant by the context in which I was speaking. I wrote that when I was tired so shoot me!
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When I read your other reply, I thought that you sound like a person that believes that surgery on a healthy animal, is completely without risk and therefore hardly could be counted as real surgery.

So no, I didn't know, that is why I used the confused smiley and said that it sounds like...
 
W&R, I have indeed read & understood, I just disagree, like many others. FL, glad I was able to clear that up. I am fully aware of the risks of surgery, but that is a whole other discussion we could search for statistics for. Most vets will ensure a dog having non- urgent surgery is fit enough to minimise risk as much as possible. If your dog is suffering from pyometra, your choices about when it is done are very limited. I have both delayed neutering until a dog was in healthy enough condition to have it (a very skinny stray) and declined surgery where I considered the risk too high (an old dog with a very large fast growing thyroid tumour too close to vital structures).
 
You've obviously done your research and based your ddecisions on that plus your own personal experiences, which is what we all do. While I have no doubt you are responsible enough to keep entire dogs, I am sure the same can't be said for everyone.

It's probably best we just agree to disagree - this thread has gone rather off topic.
 
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EAST KENT

We've found 4 of Alfie's sisters so far, sadly, all have Severe Hip Dysplasia and one poor girl has Elbow Dysplasia too. :mad:
However, despite thier problems, they are coming through this ok. They are all very strong dogs and have great temprements and are full of life and energy. They are all in very loving homes and we're all getting them through this nightmare. It's been a tough journey and still not quite over yet but we wont let it beat us. These gorgeous dogs deserve a happy painfree life and they will get it, just might take a bit of time.
It's truly amazing how dogs can cope with pain!! :cool:
 
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eatmyshorts said:
What a terrible story this thread has told, & i'm so sorry that so many of you & your dogs have had to suffer due to terrible low life human beings only out for what they can get. We all make mistakes, some harder to recover from than others, but it becomes experience if we learn from & share it. Well done to the major contributors in this situation for their committent & determination in seeing justice done. Let's hope someone rots in Hell.

To the person who said they'd never get a dog from a rescue home - you've obviously just visited the wrong one - there are lots out there - don't tar them all with the same brush.

Good luck Alfie, let's hope you & your young owner get to catch up on all the fun you've missed out on very soon xx

(From an owner of one rescue dog, one left behind by the gypsies, & two pups who were just in desperate need of good homes xx)
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Thanks for the Good Luck wishes. They are already catching up on the fun, in the snow! Alfie loves it, but have to be careful he don't slip. xxx
 
CAVE CANEM

Thank you. I've tried my best for him. It would have been easy to give him the needle, but that just wasn't an option for me. He was wanted too much. I had to get him fixed up and give him the happy life i promised to give him when i first saw him. He has so much character and is a lovely family dog and loved very much by all of us. He is like a son to me and i couldn't bear to be without him now, not after all we've been through.
My son has his best friend back and this year we are not going to be stuck at home, we're going to be in the great outdoors every day! We live real close to a great beach so will be fantastic to be able to take Alfie back there soon. Really miss our beach walks! :)
 
gingerthing said:
My advice would be to ring trading standards with your complaint about her, they will log your details. Already they have a huge backlog of complaints against her and RSPCA have her on record too. This is what I did, trading standards have confiscated all her 'puppy paperwork', and she is under investigation for fraud
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Hi there, I have just been browsing this site and have come across Lisa Walsh (dog breeder) quite alot, I just wondered if there was anything else you could tell me about her and her dogs, we have a black lab (Toby) purchased from a couple in Norwich, but he originally came from greenacres farm, he has been treated for gastroenteritis problems and now we think he has hip dysplasia, as he can't run properly and waddles when he walks. I'm so upset and angry at having bought a dog (we got him from pre loved.com website) at six months, I'm guessing the people that sold him, knew he had this, after reading other peoples horrific stories it sounds very similar to other dogs bred at greenacres, is this lady still breeing here ? (please tell me she's not) ! just wondered if you had any other information that may be of help. our dogs dob is 25.03.12 - many thanks - lisa
 
Hi Lisa,
Sorry your dog is not healthy and you are not alone. We have no way of knowing the parentage of your dog as any documents are unreliable as the place was a puppy farm outlet.
The chance are that you are seeing HD & possibly elbow displaysia too. Your vet can give a better prognosis than we can.
 
Does anyone else have a labrador that was born on the 25th March 2012 that originally came from Lisa Walsh - Greenacres Farm, I am trying to trace our Toby's brothers and sisters to find out what their health is like ?
 
Just PM'd you. xxx

ljsimsy said:
Hi there, I have just been browsing this site and have come across Lisa Walsh (dog breeder) quite alot, I just wondered if there was anything else you could tell me about her and her dogs, we have a black lab (Toby) purchased from a couple in Norwich, but he originally came from greenacres farm, he has been treated for gastroenteritis problems and now we think he has hip dysplasia, as he can't run properly and waddles when he walks. I'm so upset and angry at having bought a dog (we got him from pre loved.com website) at six months, I'm guessing the people that sold him, knew he had this, after reading other peoples horrific stories it sounds very similar to other dogs bred at greenacres, is this lady still breeing here ? (please tell me she's not) ! just wondered if you had any other information that may be of help. our dogs dob is 25.03.12 - many thanks - lisa
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Hi everyone.
Just a quick note to say I will be updating you all on this hopefully tonight.
So many more victims have contacted me. It's totally devastating to find so many poorly dogs from this one evil twisted piece of work! She's not a breeder or even human, makes my skin crawl!!!!
I will be back later. If anyone wants to PM me about anything then please feel free. Thanks. xxx
 
Hi everyone.
A lot has happened so this will probably be a long post, sorry, I’ll keep it as short as poss…
Firstly, Alfie has been struggling a bit lately & had to have more x-rays. Unfortunately his right hip has got alot worse, there is now lots of arthritic bone growth around it which was supporting his hip but the top of his femur bone has worn away causing the whole leg to move upwards, which has made it 1cm shorter than the other leg. Unfortunately he needs it replacing now, he won’t be able to cope much longer so his vet thinks it's best to get it done sooner rather than later. He’s booked in to have his 2nd total hip replacement next month.
He's been loving all his longer walks recently and being free again but now he's gonna wonder what he's done wrong with having it all taken away again. I just hope he understands and praying he will stay calmer on recovery this time too!
It will be a much trickier op due to the amount of arthritic growth, everything they do will have to be exact! Not looking forward to doing it all again and even worse having to put poor Alfie through it again! But I’ve got to do it for him so he can live that happy, pain free life i promised him. Thank god we're covered, he's cost a small fortune so far! He’ll be ok though. His operated hip is doing fine, near perfect, so that’s good! He’s still a very happy bouncy lab but does feel the pain when he’s overdun it!

One of his sisters, Holly, is not so good and was nearly pts. She has Hip & Elbow Dysplasia very severely. Both hips have been replaced & thankfully was covered by insurance which don’t renew till December. So now they are franticly trying to raise the £3500 they need to get Holly’s elbows sorted. She’s a fruitloop just like Alfie and sometimes seems to cope well with the pain but other times she just cry’s so much, bless her, wish I could do something to help them! Her hips are now in great condition on a plus note.

Alfie’s other 2 sister are doing ok. Macey had both hips done at same time but a FHO operation instead, she coped amazingly well and is fully recovered which is brilliant!

Alfie’s other sister Bella is a bit of a funny one! Sounds a bit more of a loon than Alfie, if that’s possible, and her hip x-rays are just as bad, but, she seems to cope with it. Bella also has Elbow Dysplasia & a crack in her elbow!! But she still manages to keep her owner on her toes. She’s on medication to reduce pain/swelling and she’s on a diet! Doing ok for now, but one day the time will probably come when they will have to operate. Not having adequate insurance has left the owner in a bit of a dilemma so is now trying to raise the funds!

More victims have contacted me including a very sad story of a 7 month old Lab with very severe bilateral H/D. He had Giardia and another African parasite at 1st, not sure on details of the parasite but the poor dog didn't respond to antibiotics well and has only recently come off them. The owner also had to have antibiotics but thankfully she didn't become too ill. The poor dog couldn't even sit down/walk properly and only a month ago was allowed to go outside on walks! Poor thing.

So, I now have 3 litters that have severe Hip Dysplasia, you’d think they would have locked the bitch up by now wouldn’t you? Sadly, that’s not the case!
I’m limited to what I can say about the case but as the following has already been printed in the local paper, I don’t see any harm in sharing it on here.

The following was printed recently in the Norwich Evening News……
Fraud charges denied by puppy trader.
A puppy trader denied fraud charges and the transfer of criminal property when she appeared at Norwich Crown Court.
Lisa Walsh,46,of Mill Road, Barnham Broom, near Wymondham, pleaded not guilty to participating in a fraudulent business, in that she knowingly carried on a dog breeding business for a fraudulent purpose by advertising that puppies sold by her were pedigree Kennel Club registered when they were not and providing false documentation purporting to show that puppies sold has been vaccinated when they had not.
She also denied transferring criminal property, namely the sum of £43,652 into a Norwich and Peterborough account knowing or believing it to be the proceeds of fraudulent from her dog breeding business.
Walsh also denied a further fraud charge of stating that the mother of a Labrador puppy sold by her was a pedigree Kennel Club registered dam.
She also denied another fraud charge that she dishonestly made a false representation by stating that the mother of two black Labrador puppies sold by her was a pedigree Kennel Club dam.
She also denied a fifth charge of fraud. dishonestly and intending to make a gain for herself of £495,by making a false representation by stating that the mother of a puppy sold by her was a pedigree.
Her case was adjourned for trial and Walsh was given conditional bail, with the condition being that she does not sell any puppies.

……….So, as you can see, no animal cruelty charges!! I was told it’s very difficult to prove someone is breeding ill dogs with the intent to sell ill puppies! So my argument now is, we now have 3 different litters with severe H/D, 4 from Alfie’s litter, 1 from a litter in March and 2 from a litter in September 2012, and that’s just the ones I know about, there must be many more! How on earth they don’t see fit to charge her with every animal cruelty charge there is, is beyond me! I just hope our court system see’s the whole picture and listens to all the victims! Each & every story is so heart-breaking!
Also, seeing as all these dogs, and some owners, have been initially ill when brought home, does this not count as some form of animal wrongdoings? In my eyes it does and due to the nature of their illnesses, these puppies must have shown signs of illness before being sold so she must have knowingly sold sick animals, right? The sick dogs that were and that are still being reported have all been different litters and even different breeds of dog so how can this not prove she is knowingly selling ill dogs?
Our laws and dog breeding regulations desperately need changing. I just wish there was a way to stop this damn trade!

If anyone would like more info please feel free to private message me especially if you think you are a victim. Things are in place and you may be able to help get this evil piece of work punished for what she has done.
There is also a group on facebook you can join to gain more info on this. The page is set up by a lovely lady called Dawn who is also a victim. Other victims are on there so if you are looking for littermates that is a good place to start or contact me.

I will update on Alfie soon but as far as the case goes, I think it will be a good couple of months before anything new happens.

Thanks for reading, thanks for this page-it’s a great awareness tool and thanks to all the kind people on here that have helped, it’s very much appreciated!
Take care guys & have a good evening, well, what’s left of it anyway. xxx
;)
 
Unbelievable as its one long horror story, poor dogs and poor owners, I hope they throw the book at her but I wont hold my breath.

Alfie is lucky to have you and I wish you and all the other dogs and owners well.

When you read she made nearly forty four thousand from this enterprise it just beggars belief.
 
Thanks for the update Sam. I'm not too suprised at the money she has made Dg, if you are breeding a lot of litters, with no health tests for the parents and I imagine minimal feeding throughout for both the bitch and the pups it could soon mount up. Labs have decent size litters, say she has 4 bitches and each has one litter a year (although quite possibly her bitches are mated every season:() of 7 pups, that 28 pups, sells them at £500 a year, thats around £14000 a year, a few more bitches and breeding over a few years and she would be doing very nicely, with no concern I am sure for the pups she has bred who are suffering.:mad:
 
The numbers she was selling means the puppies, some at least, were bought in.



The charges were interesting and ones that could be proven - eg KC registration.
I want to know where the rest of the money went?
 
Dobiegirl said:
Unbelievable as its one long horror story, poor dogs and poor owners, I hope they throw the book at her but I wont hold my breath.

Alfie is lucky to have you and I wish you and all the other dogs and owners well.

When you read she made nearly forty four thousand from this enterprise it just beggars belief.
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Thanks dg. Really appreciate your kind words.
The 44 grand is just what we know about, there must be a stack more somewhere!! I wonder what will happen to that money, will the courts seize it, then what happens? I think she should be forced to pay it all to organisations that are fighting puppy farms like PuppyLove Campaigns. These guys that do all the hard, heart wrenching, work need help to investigate the numerous farms.
They get no help from the government at all and the poor girls at PuppyLove are alone a lot of the time. They must be so strong! I don't think I could face all that misery every day!

If anyone out there living in the Manchester area or in Wales, has any spare time you could always offer your help, free of course, contact Puppy Love through the website, they would very much appreciate any help you can give.
xxxx:)
 
MurphysMinder said:
Thanks for the update Sam. I'm not too suprised at the money she has made Dg, if you are breeding a lot of litters, with no health tests for the parents and I imagine minimal feeding throughout for both the bitch and the pups it could soon mount up. Labs have decent size litters, say she has 4 bitches and each has one litter a year (although quite possibly her bitches are mated every season:() of 7 pups, that 28 pups, sells them at £500 a year, thats around £14000 a year, a few more bitches and breeding over a few years and she would be doing very nicely, with no concern I am sure for the pups she has bred who are suffering.:mad:
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She has no concern for any animals and not an ounce of remorse, one very sick individual! I heard that for quite some time she was knocking out over 50 puppies a week and that was from only one address, she was operating all over Norwich with accomplices and fake names! She must be loaded!! Shame she couldn't spend some on herself and tidy herself up a bit!
Her time will come, people like that always get their comeuppance.
I do wish the Kennel Club would tighten their regulations, its way too easy to breed and manipulate the system! :mad:
 
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