Livery package inclusions / exclusions

[Deltofe2493]

Sounds as if there could be multiple things going on here, and it’s really important to get his management right. It doesn’t sound as if he’s being investigated in any meaningful manner, you don’t know how much he’s being fed and his turnout is questionable.

Sorry, going a bit off tangent, I know. But chucking more food at him may not get the resolution you’re looking for.

All advice appreciated that's why I've posted and brought it up!

I'm not planning on chucking more food, it's a case of different food / smaller feeds which has better nutritional value.

Where would you start in terms of investigations?

What would you do re the stiff leg would you nerve block route or would you give more turnout tp help even though the field conditions aren't great?

 

[nagblagger]

Not wormed, no exercise or turnout, not sure of amount of feed being given = stressed unhappy horse (in my opinion) = Ulcers
Potential increase stiffness caused by lack of exercise.
I agree with Amymay, try and get his basic management right.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Thought I'd come on here and rant / ask everyone's opinion on what would be fair in this situation

I am currently on part livery (7 days a week care, except grooming & riding). My horse is an extremely poor doer. Up until now the yard have been feeding horse, but having spoke to a nutritionist and reccommendations I now want to try making & buying my feeds myself to see if this make a difference.

Anyway, I said to the YO please can my cost of livery be reduced as I will no longer be using any of their basic hard feed, and they said no as they don't charge for basic feed. Unfortunately I didn't receive a proper contract or agreement so already I know I don't have a leg to stand on they can make it up as they goes along.

It depends on the yard but I thought some yards offer 'tailored' livery packages to fit livery needs. Very frustrated as I now feel like I'm paying double for something as I'm no longer using one of their services.

Thoughts?!

Liveries here told what we offer and if they want different they have to buy, there is no reduction if they want something different. With so many feed options now a days, it is impossible to cater for all the diets, so I am afraid side with the yard owner.

we offer a basic feed
middle type with pasture mix
and a competition type


we don't stop owners buying the rest but it is in their contract there is no reduction.

 

[AmyMay]

All advice appreciated that's why I've posted and brought it up!

I'm not planning on chucking more food, it's a case of different food / smaller feeds which has better nutritional value.

Where would you start in terms of investigations?

What would you do re the stiff leg would you nerve block route or would you give more turnout tp help even though the field conditions aren't great?

This is a conversation for you and your vet.

What’s wrong with the fields?

 

[Deltofe2493]

Not wormed, no exercise or turnout, not sure of amount of feed being given = stressed unhappy horse (in my opinion) = Ulcers
Potential increase stiffness caused by lack of exercise.
I agree with Amymay, try and get his basic management right.

Has been wormed, but not been tested by vet. last wormed in October. & on horse walker and I've been lunging / riding every day since to ensure exercise & fitness maintained.

 

[Deltofe2493]

This is a conversation for you and your vet.

What’s wrong with the fields?

soggy & slippy and bad ground in general. where this is the second accident in 2 months I can't trust that no more damage will be done. I know all horses need turnout and was absolutely fine in summer no issues whatsoever but winter came and BANG accidents started to happen.

FYI this is my first winter with my horse and first time owning. I bought horse from the yard owner, so my horsey network & resources are pretty limited. Hence why I'm asking random strangers on the internet advice so please be kind!!

 

[TheLoneWanderer]

Vets don't do 'worm tests' you need a worm count kit

 

[nagblagger]

Sorry I must have misread post, thought he had only been out once with no turnout, my mistake, I apologise, you did say 'not yet been wormed',.which could be an easy answer for weightloss..and easy cure

 

[Deltofe2493]

Vets don't do 'worm tests' you need a worm count kit

https://www.365vet.co.uk/wor003-westgate-worm-count-kit-one-horse.html

this???

 

[Deltofe2493]

Sorry I must have misread post, thought he had only been out once with no turnout, my mistake, I apologise, you did say 'not yet been wormed',.which could be an easy answer for weightloss..and easy cure

i type so quick my mind thinks faster than my hands sometimes!! no probs. I defo agree though re ulcers as ex-race horse. Possibly the stress of being on box rest for a month then back out in the field might have flared them up. I wish they could talk sometimes.

 

[ycbm]

Liveries here told what we offer and if they want different they have to buy, there is no reduction if they want something different. With so many feed options now a days, it is impossible to cater for all the diets, so I am afraid side with the yard owner.

we offer a basic feed
middle type with pasture mix
and a competition type


we don't stop owners buying the rest but it is in their contract there is no reduction.

It saves your yard money if the owner buys their own, I don't understand why the owner can't have a reduction of a bit less than that saving, with the balance to compensate for the small amount of extra work to use what the owner supplies. My horse is intolerant to alfalfa and linseed in a way that changes him completely to handle, and probably to cereals. So he can't eat any of the food you offer, unless by basic food you mean grass nuts, and he's not especially unusual in that.

Of course your yard owner can charge what they like if the yard is full with a waiting list.
.

 

[ycbm]

Vets don't do 'worm tests' you need a worm count kit

They certainly do!

 

[Arzada]

Are you at this yard because your horse was already living there when you bought him? It seems that this yard management just doesn't suit him. I'm wondering if you have considered/looked for a different yard for your horse? One where he can spend more time out?

 

[Deltofe2493]

Are you at this yard because your horse was already living there when you bought him? It seems that this yard management just doesn't suit him. I'm wondering if you have considered/looked for a different yard for your horse? One where he can spend more time out?

it's less than 10 mins from my house so very convenient. Indoor / outdoor schools & individual/pairs turnout. And most reasonable pricing for part livery package. Most places are £700 plus.

I have definitely looked, just can't find anywhere that suits or has space at the moment.

 

[honetpot]

I actually think you need to know exactly how much your horse is being fed in kg, including hay. Ad lib may mean as much as he can eat, but how much is that, and is it enough to maintain his weight? The 1.5-2% of bodyweight is usually where you start. At the start of the winter I weigh my nets until I get used to the weights, if it's off a round bale it's a lot harder to judge than taking slices off a 22kg bale. You also need to know the DE and the weight of the feed being given.
There is so little profit on livery, (you have said it's reasonably priced) that paying for extra food wouldn't really concern me, asking for extra hay to the value of the feed supplied not used would perhaps be a compromise, after all they still have to give your horse a feed.

 

[criso]

I prefer yards that don't include feed as it gives me the freedom to feed what I want.

Of the ones I've come across that do include it, the cheaper ones had less flexibility, there are more expensive yards where you can order from a wide range of what their feed supplier stocks but you pay more for that privilege. You've said that others in the area are more expensive so maybe one way to look at it is that what you save on cheaper livery means you will have extra to supplement a basic offering.

I was at one that included feed, however I'd been struggling with allergies and was feeding straights and I knew this when I viewed. They agreed to buy in the cheaper things I wanted and I paid for the more expensive, this seemed fair enough as premium feeds weren't included.

Incidentally was the nutritionist independent rather than associated with a particular feed company?

 

[Deltofe2493]

So 550kg horse would eat max 11g of food per day? How much hay per this size horse?

sorry what’s DE?

new diet is gut balancer, acid supplement, pure feed conditioning mix, a&p calm & condition & tumerflex.

Nutritionist was via pure feed but was recommended by my friend who also has an ex racer and did really well on it

 

[criso]

The 11kg includes hay and grass if they are turned out, it's total feed intake, though I'd using 2.5% if I was looking for weight gain.

DE is digestible energy, it's like calories.

 

[SO1]

How much of each? Both pure feeds and calm and condition are complete feeds with added vitamins and minerals they are not designed to be feed with each other if you feed the recommended daily amount of each you might unbalance the diet.

It is a bit like having a tesco vitamin tablet and sainsbury's one at best a waste of money at worse too much vitamins.

You would probably better advised to feed either the recommended daily amount of calm and condition or pure feeds conditioning mix plus something like equijewel which has a DE of 18 but is not fortified with vitamins but it a weight gain product.

https://saracenhorsefeeds.com/sports/product/equi-jewel

So 550kg horse would eat max 11g of food per day? How much hay per this size horse?

sorry what’s DE?

new diet is gut balancer, acid supplement, pure feed conditioning mix, a&p calm & condition & tumerflex.

Nutritionist was via pure feed but was recommended by my friend who also has an ex racer and did really well on it

 

[TheMule]

Yes definitely. I am treating for ulcers at the minute, acid aid supplement and gut balancer which has been on for a week. May have made a difference but probably won't notice properly for another couple weeks. It was only since chiro came out before for yet another problem and suggested this could be the case.

If no improvement will get them scoped etc, only just fully insured a couple weeks ago so letting the dust settle there.

That doesn’t count as 'treating for ulcers', sorry, but an anti acid supplement can help to prevent them and lessen some symptoms by providing temporary relief, but it's not a treatment for curing them.

Your horse is on box rest by your choosing, the yard will subsequently be using a lot more hay and bedding for him. You pay for an all- inclusive package and I can’t see that you should be entitled to pay less when they are fulfilling their role and supplying hard feed. It is your choice to not use it, at your cost.

 

[Auslander]

I supply basic hard feed - choice of grass chaff, alfa a, chopped oat straw, speedibeet and grassnuts, which is included in the livery, and any extras are purchased by the owner. I don't offer a reduction, as I am happy that I offer a choice which provides a suitable base feed for the majority of horses.
As MUle says - if the horse is on box rest, it's going to be costing a lot more in hay and bedding, so I'd be inclined to suck up the fairly minimal cost of hard feed (or incorporate your choices with what's on offer). As an example - I've had one horse on box rest for two weeks, and in that time, I've gone through two extra bales of hay (£35 each) and 4 extra bags of bedding (£5.99 each). I haven't charged the owner any extra, as hay and bedding is included in the livery, so that comes straight out of my pocket.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

It saves your yard money if the owner buys their own, I don't understand why the owner can't have a reduction of a bit less than that saving, with the balance to compensate for the small amount of extra work to use what the owner supplies. My horse is intolerant to alfalfa and linseed in a way that changes him completely to handle, and probably to cereals. So he can't eat any of the food you offer, unless by basic food you mean grass nuts, and he's not especially unusual in that.

Of course your yard owner can charge what they like if the yard is full with a waiting list.
.

I work on my own here, no staff, and our feed room is small 10x 9 so very limited on space. Just how we have always done it and how the yard works best, mainly happy hackers and we feel if we start to let reductions happen where will it stop. Horse away on training and they want reduced livery or no livery while their horse is away. There are plenty yards round here that offer more options so if they don't like our system there are other choices. SO far all the livery here now are happy on what we offer. Any wanting extra have been happy to have what we offer and something extra they supply so horse has more options.

 

[ycbm]

So 550kg horse would eat max 11g of food per day?

That's all food intake and dry weight, and even pony cubes have water in them that you theoretically have to discount. Hay has a lot more water in than you would think.

Also horses are not all the same. My lightweight horse won't eat more than he wants no matter what you offer. I've had horses that would be a fat as houses on 2% of their bodyweight, and others , TB in particular, who would look like hat racks. Then it depends on what work they do, as well.

2% is a start point, you have to feed each horse as an individual.
.

 

[Auslander]

Just to add. I saw what the horse is being fed by the yard, and that's pretty much what I feed to horses that need condition putting on. Ulsakind cubes are my go to for weight gain, and the speedibeet and Lingold will also pack on the pounds! The Pure Feeds mix is good, but it's an expensive way to feed, when you can get excellent results from the feed the horse is already having! I would raise an eyebrow at a nutritionist recommending Calm and Condition in addition to the Pure mix (especially if it was a Pure Feeds nutritionist!) as feeding the two in combination isn't going to be balanced, as they are both complete feeds. I also hate Calm and Condition, as it generally does the exact opposite!
I think you are making a big mistake keeping this horse stabled. If you're worried about cuts, put some turnout boots on, and get the poor thing out and moving around!

 

[honetpot]

Yes, the 2% is a starting point. Some horse are just not able to eat enough to maintain their bodyweight on forage alone, 11kg is only about half a bale of hay, about 24lbs . My TB would happily eat more like 18kg, in hay a day, and have three 2kg dry weight hard feed high DE feeds on top of this just maintain his bodyweight in winter, if stabled.
Sometimes they burn energy without us realising. As he got older he lived out rugged all winter with company and actually needed less food to maintain his condition. Some horses do not look stressed but are.

 

[greenbean10]

I've been on 2 full livery yards and in both cases there would be no reduction if you bought your own feed. It is frustrating.

I suppose if the YO agreed to that it could be a slippery slope to 'give my horse less bedding and charge me X less a week' or 'my horse doesn't eat as much hay as hers so why are we paying the same amount?', or even 'I'll muck out my own stable everyday so can I have a reduction'. It's really annoying but full livery yards IME tend to be very unflexible and I can sort of see why.

 

[honetpot]

sorry what’s DE?

I think this is one of the main problems with horse feeds, as humans we are happy to check our food labels, we know a low fat yoghurt will probably have less calories than a full fat yoghurt, even if it weighs the same and comes in roughly the same sized carton.
Even nuts weigh differently depending on the size and density of the nut, so one scoop of nuts can actually can weigh 10% less or more, than another. I have an old set of kitchen pan scales with weights, when I use something new, it gets weighed, dry weight.

 

[LegOn]

Any yard that I've been on if you supply your own feed - you dont get a reduction but I honestly dont think you should.

Because at the end of the day you are still paying for them to handle it, mix it up and give it to your horse! Most yards get bulk discount feed offers so if they were to divide out the cost they incur for feeding one horse especially if its a large yard, it might not amount to a huge discount per week you are hoping for, and it certaintly wouldnt cover the cost of the feed you are going to buy, if that was your hope. The yard are still having to pay staff and its still their time and care towards your horse, they have electricity, insurance, water rates, ect - its all built into the price not just the £x amount for feed.

I dont think liveries would be happy if you asked for extra feed and were told you had to pay more - its the way full livery works!

Honestly, if everything else at the yard is good and you are happy there - I wouldnt mind paying for my own feed, I've done it in the past and would do it again if needed!

 

[dorsetladette]

I'd be worried that because YO owned the horse before you she is keeping him/her the way she thinks is correct rather than how you want to. If it were mine it would be rugged and booted and out as much as possible with hay in the field, Even if it had to be on its own with others insight to avoid further injury. Or if the turnout is not good enough, I'd be looking for somewhere else.

The nutritionist is likely to be recommending the feed of the company they are associated with (its what they are paid to do).

Currently on speedi beet, lingold, ulsa kind cubes & chaff. (I pay extra for the lingold).

I'd keep with the same feed basics as its included in your package. Possibly swap the speedibeet for sugarbeet (its cheaper and has molasses in it) drop the lingold and replace with linseed lozenges (my go to weight gain feed).

 

[wiglet]

My yard is full livery and includes feed. There is a limited choice of Alfa A, Happy Hoof, HiFibre nuts or competition mix. No sugar beet or anything that requires soaking because it takes more time (and I'm not sure the yard staff could be trusted tbh). You are welcome (kind of) to purchase your own feed but there is no reduction in cost and it is discouraged because it takes up more space in feed room and it's something extra to dish out.

Make sure your horse is receiving the correct amount/ration of feed - on my yard if the YO is doing feeds, everything receives the correct amount, if the staff are left to sort, it's a bit more hit and miss - my horse was getting just a handful of chaff and a few nuts - not enough for her size. There is a white board stating what your horse is being fed but, the staff don't really follow it.

Having a poor doer myself, I do sympathise with your situation - for now I have been adding micronised linseed to her feed (early days so yet to see a positive result) but I am patiently waiting for Dr Green to start sprouting... I guess we'll all be whinging about weight gain then!!