Livery package inclusions / exclusions

[Polos Mum]

In relation to the cost reduction - basic feed being maybe a scoop of cheap nuts and chaff would be perhaps 25-50p a day - if you are quibbling with the yard over less than £3 a week its not the right yard.

I also think its worth a look at other yards - you've said its the cheapest in the area - that will be for a reason - cheap basic feed, cheap (low quality / dusty) hay, poor fields which aren't ideal and likely over crowded = increased accidents, stress etc. - even in pairs if they are on a postage stamped size area its over crowded.

You get what you pay for and if he's struggling in this yard and your starting to spend a lot on extras then maybe a more expensive yard that gets the basics right would be cheaper in the long run. Nice turnout with some grass / space to avoid accidents, mix of haylage if he needs extra calories, slower pace so he can relax and not burn energy on stress.

IMHO more hard feed into an ex racer with issues and limited turnout is not a going to end well at all.

 

[Deltofe2493]

My yard is full livery and includes feed. There is a limited choice of Alfa A, Happy Hoof, HiFibre nuts or competition mix. No sugar beet or anything that requires soaking because it takes more time (and I'm not sure the yard staff could be trusted tbh). You are welcome (kind of) to purchase your own feed but there is no reduction in cost and it is discouraged because it takes up more space in feed room and it's something extra to dish out.

Make sure your horse is receiving the correct amount/ration of feed - on my yard if the YO is doing feeds, everything receives the correct amount, if the staff are left to sort, it's a bit more hit and miss - my horse was getting just a handful of chaff and a few nuts - not enough for her size. There is a white board stating what your horse is being fed but, the staff don't really follow it.

Having a poor doer myself, I do sympathise with your situation - for now I have been adding micronised linseed to her feed (early days so yet to see a positive result) but I am patiently waiting for Dr Green to start sprouting... I guess we'll all be whinging about weight gain then!!

This is my concern. There's no whiteboard, is horsey getting the same amount every day?? Is he defo getting lunch every day as promised?? If one is away at a show do they remember to feed etc. I just don't know.

I understand there is work to do my end with worm counts, taking bloods & veterinary ulcer treatment / management but I do question things then I know they all talk about me because as soon as I sent a message to the YO my friend was like I'm going to call you and they said I read too much on the internet. Which may be true but how else am I supposed to educate myself!

@Auslander so from what I've explained re stiffness you defo think to turn out in field even though a little weak and under condition? nervous it might make the injury worse?? that's why I've just kept to stretching indoors.

 

[Deltofe2493]

In relation to the cost reduction - basic feed being maybe a scoop of cheap nuts and chaff would be perhaps 25-50p a day - if you are quibbling with the yard over less than £3 a week its not the right yard.

I also think its worth a look at other yards - you've said its the cheapest in the area - that will be for a reason - cheap basic feed, cheap (low quality / dusty) hay, poor fields which aren't ideal and likely over crowded = increased accidents, stress etc. - even in pairs if they are on a postage stamped size area its over crowded.

You get what you pay for and if he's struggling in this yard and your starting to spend a lot on extras then maybe a more expensive yard that gets the basics right would be cheaper in the long run. Nice turnout with some grass / space to avoid accidents, mix of haylage if he needs extra calories, slower pace so he can relax and not burn energy on stress.

IMHO more hard feed into an ex racer with issues and limited turnout is not a going to end well at all.

Agree! Off to see a yard in about 5 mins specialising in rehab. Not that this is needed, but I think it is more to do with the approach and care and access to decent vets / physios maintained fields etc.

Not a fan of my vet. Find her very young and inexperienced and unsure of herself. I find the practice itself very in it for the money which I understand money makes the world go round but they seem more worried about the most expensive route of treatment. i.e. their policy is to bring in to horsepital for nerve blocks & xrays when my friend at another yard had this done on her yard.

 

[Gloi]

It's the same on my yard. They will provide basic chop, nuts and sugar beet but anything else you buy yourself and they will feed it. There is a whiteboard in feed room and yo will leave a note if anything is getting low.

 

[ihatework]

Agree! Off to see a yard in about 5 mins specialising in rehab. Not that this is needed, but I think it is more to do with the approach and care and access to decent vets / physios maintained fields etc.

Not a fan of my vet. Find her very young and inexperienced and unsure of herself. I find the practice itself very in it for the money which I understand money makes the world go round but they seem more worried about the most expensive route of treatment. i.e. their policy is to bring in to horsepital for nerve blocks & xrays when my friend at another yard had this done on her yard.

I generally find it cheaper overall to have any work ups done at the hospital. And more likely to get you the right answers quicker

 

[criso]

Of what is being currently fed, what sort of chaff is it? There's a massive difference between a plain straw chaff and a grass chaff in terms of calories with alfalfa between the two.

With my ex racers, I find it's all about the forage, I can tinker with hard feeds but they need good quality hay or haylage and lots of it. Mine is easily getting through 3/4 of a bale at the moment, out every day though not much grass left and 3 feeds a day of grass chaff, copra and linseed. He has dropped a bit recently hence the 3rd feed.

I weight tape weekly to check.

With the yard, I might turn it back to them and say X has dropped weight, is this typical for him at this time of year? What do you suggest we do? Rather than turn up with a feed plan which given it has been produced by a feed company rep, alot of people would be sceptical about.

 

[ycbm]

if you are quibbling with the yard over less than £3 a week its not the right yard.

A bog standard horse will eat 3 kg a day, often more. That's a tenner a week, £500 a year and worth asking for but not falling out over, imo.

 

[teapot]

nothing at the moment as accident prone tb and investigating a lameness / altered gait / stiffness and fields in poor condition & don't want any more damage to be done!

has a couple of hours turn out in indoor school so opportunity to stretch etc (or so I'm told, came out stable today stiff as cardboard)!

Boot up and chuck out. Just as likely to do damage in a ten min hoolie on a surface than a few hours on grass at the end of day… Also way better for the horse’s well-being, sun on back, grass, company (even if over fence).

Worm/worm count, THEN look at feed imho.

Also you cannot assess stiffness if the horse is living in 24/7. You’d be stiff too

 

[Tarragon]

I used to resent having to pay the same livery as others when it included unlimited hay, as my ponies needed a fraction of the amount fed to the big horses and it wasn't taken into account. Plus I hate to see hay wasted and one livery used to overfeed her horse and throw out almost as much hay my ponies got, out onto the muck heap everyday. I put up with it while the rest of the package was a good one, but very glad to be responsible for buying my own hay now.

 

[Polos Mum]

A bog standard horse will eat 3 kg a day, often more. That's a tenner a week, £500 a year and worth asking for but not falling out over, imo.

I agree, they definitely could eat that - but I'd be genuinely surprised if the cheapest yard in the area is spending £10 a week on hard feed.

 

[Auslander]

so from what I've explained re stiffness you defo think to turn out in field even though a little weak and under condition? nervous it might make the injury worse?? that's why I've just kept to stretching indoors.

You need to find out what the injury is, if you're so concerned that a normal element of horsey life is going to cause a problem that you are confining your horse to a stable 99% of it's life. I am hugely against box rest unless there is a valid clinical reason behind it, and in this case, even your vet has said to turn out. Your horse isn't going to get strong standing in a stable
I know you think you're doing the right thing, and I understand, but it's not a nice way for a horse to live. You cant keep them from harm, because they are horses, and horses are idiots - so you need to manage risk (boots, etc) whilst allowing them the freedom they are designed for.

 

[Deltofe2493]

You need to find out what the injury is, if you're so concerned that a normal element of horsey life is going to cause a problem that you are confining your horse to a stable 99% of it's life. I am hugely against box rest unless there is a valid clinical reason behind it, and in this case, even your vet has said to turn out. Your horse isn't going to get strong standing in a stable
I know you think you're doing the right thing, and I understand, but it's not a nice way for a horse to live. You cant keep them from harm, because they are horses, and horses are idiots - so you need to manage risk (boots, etc) whilst allowing them the freedom they are designed for.

I have farrier & physio over the weekend so hopefully one of these can shed a bit more light. As mentioned already had vet & chiro who found nothing hugely concerning.

If nothing then will go deeper into it obviously. They really are and so much stress when things like this happen. It is typical I had literally bought back boots and was bringing up the day came in cut & limping!

 

[Arzada]

I agree completely with Auslander and Teapot and couldn't put it better. I expect that if you are able to offer your horse a more relaxed horse friendly lifestyle that he will start to gain weight. Well done on looking at other yards for your horse. It may take a while to find one that you think will work for you and your horse but you will learn something at every yard, what you like, what you don't like, it will all be useful experience.

 

[Deltofe2493]

I'd be worried that because YO owned the horse before you she is keeping him/her the way she thinks is correct rather than how you want to. If it were mine it would be rugged and booted and out as much as possible with hay in the field, Even if it had to be on its own with others insight to avoid further injury. Or if the turnout is not good enough, I'd be looking for somewhere else.

The nutritionist is likely to be recommending the feed of the company they are associated with (its what they are paid to do).

I'd keep with the same feed basics as its included in your package. Possibly swap the speedibeet for sugarbeet (its cheaper and has molasses in it) drop the lingold and replace with linseed lozenges (my go to weight gain feed).

Highlighted in bold because I completely agree, she is a dealer so only had horse for 3 weeks but obviously knows this is my first time owning so I've partly been relying on them to help me with management. But something clearly isn't right! I feel like she would be offended if I decided to do a walk of the fields to check.

 

[Tim Collins]

So.... there are full livery questions and DIY livery questions. This is the latter.

My wife loves the yard we are in as the wee fella has a constant herd with some pals still with him after a decade. We also have the best hacking options available we can wander in three cardinal directions and go on for miles and days if the spirit moves us. We also have an indoor and an outdoor school available which is most accessible early and late, so it is. There is also a sand gallop of about a mile, if we need to stretch him out a bit. All good eh?

Spring, summer and fall are all good. Out 18hours day/night most days. - My question is about winter. Our fields are occupied by hardy wee fellas that like out. Each winter it seems there are more and more tensions about out, and now increasing costs for required early in and increased reticence to put them out at all due to snow colic, and mud and ice injuries, future grass conditions. There is lots of support for box time in the winter, particularly amongst the full livery folks. Our winter DIY costs have gone up about 20% and we spend more time onsite trying to find reasonable ways to keep him exercised four or five days a week.

What is it like out there in horse land? Do all the horses in Scotland and the Baltic areas 'normally' stay in? Are horses dropping like flies from eating snow? We work for a living by the way, things are a bit tight in terms of both time and money at the moment.

Tim

 

[honetpot]

I have always tried to keep mine out as much as possible but if you are on clay, and once I lived on the side of a Peak District it's more difficult, then they can be in from October to April.
My compromise is half an acre thrash paddock, and I am lucky I have and large open shed where they get a round netted bale, with a school sized turnout of mud. Mooching and eating all day no matter how small the turnout seems to keep them occupied. I used to have less than half an acre for three ponies, which was literally a mud bath for most of the winter, and never had any problems with the children popping on them at the weekend if the weather was good. A paddock of mud is not usually what people want to look at.
Our grass is growing, but if you turn them out now, it would be cut up mud in less than a week. There is a livery yard near me that has them in about a third of acre pens, of floppy tape, which means you actually get more poaching, and the animals stand about in corners

 

[I'm Dun]

The 11kg includes hay and grass if they are turned out, it's total feed intake, though I'd using 2.5% if I was looking for weight gain.

DE is digestible energy, it's like calories.

My poor but not terrible doer TB eats closer to 20kgs of hay a day in winter. On 11kgs he'd be a hat rack!

 

[ycbm]

So.... there are full livery questions and DIY livery questions. This is the latter.

My wife loves the yard we are in as the wee fella has a constant herd with some pals still with him after a decade. We also have the best hacking options available we can wander in three cardinal directions and go on for miles and days if the spirit moves us. We also have an indoor and an outdoor school available which is most accessible early and late, so it is. There is also a sand gallop of about a mile, if we need to stretch him out a bit. All good eh?

Spring, summer and fall are all good. Out 18hours day/night most days. - My question is about winter. Our fields are occupied by hardy wee fellas that like out. Each winter it seems there are more and more tensions about out, and now increasing costs for required early in and increased reticence to put them out at all due to snow colic, and mud and ice injuries, future grass conditions. There is lots of support for box time in the winter, particularly amongst the full livery folks. Our winter DIY costs have gone up about 20% and we spend more time onsite trying to find reasonable ways to keep him exercised four or five days a week.

What is it like out there in horse land? Do all the horses in Scotland and the Baltic areas 'normally' stay in? Are horses dropping like flies from eating snow? We work for a living by the way, things are a bit tight in terms of both time and money at the moment.

Tim

Start a new thread and you'll get more answers Tim, this one's about a specific horse. But your post is the first time I've ever heard the expression "snow colic" and I've been around horses for 50 years.
.

 

[Caol Ila]

I was staying out of that fight (shoving a sock into my mouth quite frankly while trying to not throw my phone at a wall) but snow colic is not. a. thing. It just isn’t. Colic from sustained periods standing in a stable, however, is a thing.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Anyway, I said to the YO please can my cost of livery be reduced as I will no longer be using any of their basic hard feed, and they said no as they don't charge for basic feed. Unfortunately I didn't receive a proper contract or agreement so already I know I don't have a leg to stand on they can make it up as they goes along.

It depends on the yard but I thought some yards offer 'tailored' livery packages to fit livery needs. Very frustrated as I now feel like I'm paying double for something as I'm no longer using one of their services.

Thoughts?!

I am on 7 day part livery. No discount for not using yard feeds. But some feeds offered have extra costs. Yard feeds Saracen’s feeds (offers some of their range), and original HiFi and Alfa A oil.



I feed Saracen’s Re-Leve – for which there is a £20pcm additional charge. But as it’s the only feed that meets my criteria (conditioning, high DE, low starch, low sugar) and I feed 3kg a day, which is 4.5 bags a month, it works out best to pay the surcharge. And means I probably do get value for money from the feed the yard provide within my (substantial) livery costs.



I also provide my own chaff as the Original Hifi is too high sugar, and horse wont eat Alfa A oil.



I provide my own micronised linseed, and Forage plus balancer too. All costs!


I also make up my own feeds, and my own tupperware pots of supplents to be tipped in each feed ?

 

[honetpot]

Start a new thread and you'll get more answers Tim, this one's about a specific horse. But your post is the first time I've ever heard the expression "snow colic" and I've been around horses for 50 years.
.

Do you think it's when they do not drink enough due either the water being too cold or frozen, and eating a lot of dry forage? In winter, when we had lying snow and freezing temperatures, my neighbour had two with colic. My tap froze so I was bringing water from home which was tepid, mine were in the next field. When they are out in cold temperatures, and the ground is snow covered or frozen I now add warmer water to the trough.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Do you think it's when they do not drink enough due either the water being too cold or frozen, and eating a lot of dry forage? In winter, when we had lying snow and freezing temperatures, my neighbour had two with colic. My tap froze so I was bringing water from home which was tepid, mine were in the next field. When they are out in cold temperatures, and the ground is snow covered or frozen I now add warmer water to the trough.

I think frozen temperatures, less movement due to icy ground, cold / frozen water, possibly more dry hay than wet grass does cause an increase in colic but no connection to snow.

 

[mariew]

I have known more than one yard to dramatically cut feed due to wanting to save money without telling owners and same owners thinking their horse has been ill. Not saying this is the case with yours, just that it's not an impossibility.

Do you go in the evening? Has he still got bundles of hay? Looking for a different yard sounds like a sensible option.

 

[Caol Ila]

When I had my hard keeper who required a cadre of servants to keep her going, full livery at my current yard was worth it. With my Highland, it is not, which (among other reasons...like having two horses) is why he's on DIY and I'm responsible for hay purchasing and distribution.

With regards Tim's question about norms in our part of the world... Most of the West of Scotland is so antideluvian with regards to horsekeeping and best practice. Don't get me started. It drives me crazy. I've practically got a second PhD in yard hunting, because I was miserable at Gypsum's yard for about seven of the eight years she was there, but there was nowhere that offered year-round turn-out and would accommodate her other needs (and the place we are at now was not suitable under its previous regime). Lots of places offer zero winter turnout, and I was not having her stabled 24/7 for half the year. Very few are creative enough to try things like track systems (the ones that does is too far and also nuts). The yard down the road gleefully told me that they do not have winter turnout, like it was a point of pride. "Why do all these people want winter turnout? We don't give them that." Cool??? Go you.

Just because it's sort of SOP doesn't mean it's good. So many things in the horse world are quite the opposite.

 

[Deltofe2493]

I have known more than one yard to dramatically cut feed due to wanting to save money without telling owners and same owners thinking their horse has been ill. Not saying this is the case with yours, just that it's not an impossibility.

Do you go in the evening? Has he still got bundles of hay? Looking for a different yard sounds like a sensible option.

This is what I could be thinking? My instructor is friends with groom on the yard and she watches the feeds be done which is why she suggested I buy & make my own in the first place.

if it’s taking less out the supply and at same cost I don’t know why my yard owner is so adamant to carry on feeding and not just let me get on with it?!

I asked yo should I buy a weight tape and she said no not worth it but spoke to my instructor and she suggest I do and weigh same time every week to monitor.

really like the yard I saw today would be a bit more maintenance & slightly higher cost but worth it

 

[Tim Collins]

Apologies will sort it.

,