Livery Yard Rules

I think the OP is right to be concerned.

I was at a yard with this rule a few years ago and one livery was bringing another livery's horse in and arguably led it too close to a third person's brand new very expensive car knocking the wing mirror off. The car owner had huge problems recovering the cost of the broken wing mirror as neither the person leading the horse nor the owner of the horse would pay out. It got very nasty and as I left before legal action was taken so I never found out who ending up paying. It was a horrible situation for all three and as in previous posts it would have been a lot nastier if someone had been physically injured or if the horse had sustained a bad injury.
It's all very well not agreeing with the litigious culture but when something goes wrong you may have to face it head on without the appropriate insurance to cover you.

I was lucky to have two horses in the same field so never had to rely on others to bring my horses in and I'm glad of that as there were several that I wouldn't have trusted to bring my 'good' horse in let alone my big nervy mare. I think she would have got away from the majority of the other liveries and all of them were more than capable of looking after their own horses.
 
So glad I'm not at livery any more..... A friends horse where there was this rule ended up very headshy. Turned out the person bringing him in was slapping him round the head. Another friend finds her horse is brought in at lunchtime during the summer when she was expecting the horse to be out for the day, or that none of the other liveries want to turn out at all because rain is forecast. And that's before you get into the issues of dealing with rude, unruly horses or those you can't catch. Unless it's a private mutually beneficial agreement between a couple of people it can be a PITA.
 
I agree with this rule as someone who has a horse who goes bonkers if left alone.

The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.

This is precisely why I won't have mine on DIY yards. They seem to attract a certain breed of person.
Out of 25 years on livery, 2 years of DIY were the unhappiest/most stressful time I have spent as a horse owner.
Some people seem to treat making other peoples lives a misery!

Back to the OP.....
I can see your issues. There are some horses I would have to steel myself to bring in but I would do it and suing the owners would be the last thing on my mind.
Deep breath, brave pants on and away you go :D
 
So all you people who are saying 'I don't know what the big deal is', what would you be saying if somebody was leading your horse in and it escaped, slipped broke a leg and had to be pts?? Or here's another scenario for you, what if, as your horse bolted being led, it lashed out to the side and kicked the person leading it in the head killing them, what then? These are both incidents that I know for a fact have happened when dealing with horses, and while we are all prepared to take this risk when dealing with our own horses, why the hell should we take it with somebody else's?? From experience, you rarely get a thank you from the owner anyway, and has others have said, you will always get those that abuse this rule and use it so that they only have to come and see to their horse once a day. Why can't people accept that we do live in a ridiculously litigious society and stop playing down the implications of accidents that happen in the course of doing someone a favour! If it was me OP, I would look for another yard if this rule is staying. DIY stands for DO IT YOURSELF!
 
Carrots&Mints said:
'Where theres a blame there a claim' once again!! I doubt anyone would be charged if there horse escaped and killed said person in car or handler. We have horse we all know horses are unpredictable we all take the risks end of, its once of the most dangerous sport if not thee most dangerous sport/hobby in the world and its our choice to have horses as a hobby.

If you are not happy about bringing someone elses horse in then take it up with the yard owner and ask them or a member of staff to bring the lone horse in, the YO will have acceptable insurance to allow a horse to be brought in 'legally'

What a joke!!
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I think it unlikely that the CPS would prosecute and bring a criminal conviction - but as you point out, we all know that horses are unpredictable. In itself, that is sufficient grounds for some people to bring a civil claim against the owner of the horse.
 
quirky said:
The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.

This is precisely why I won't have mine on DIY yards. They seem to attract a certain breed of person.
Out of 25 years on livery, 2 years of DIY were the unhappiest/most stressful time I have spent as a horse owner.
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Yep, probably DIY was not for you, it takes a certain something to be able to organise that your own horse (who you know will stress if left alone and you care about very much) is never left alone rather than leaving it to chance.

As for your derogatory comment about DIYers, you may have just alienated a big proportion of this forum who look after their own horses and are proud to do so. We don't all have very low standards. It may depend on which yard you're on but the same goes for full livery yards, some of which have very low standards of care and treat their clients like idiots (I hasten to add that others are jolly nice indeed, but was just illustrating that there's good and bad in both camps (yards)).
 
quirky said:
I agree with this rule as someone who has a horse who goes bonkers if left alone.

The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.
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Basing the management of your horse on what somebody else 'usually' does is not going to be a recipe for success... And I say that as the owner of a young horse who couldn't be left on her own, so I have arrangements in place to make sure she isn't.
 
JennBags said:
I think if you're worrying about liability, it is because you are worrying that you cannot control the horse, and therefore in my mind that equates to being nervous - maybe it's just the way my mind works though. She did say she's not comfortable bringing in some of the horses - again, that indicates being somewhat nervous.

It's a fairly standard rule on a lot of livery yards - it may not be ideal, but if you don't like the rules (whether they are new rules or ones already existing) then you need to either do something about them or move yards. Maybe the rule was an unwritten one that was always there, and recently there have been issues with leaving a horse alone, so it has become a written rule.

I think the OP had a completely bizarre response - and if she reacts like that in RL, then there's no wonder that she's being threatened with eviction from her yard.
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That was pretty uncalled for. No wonder the OP left after that rude response.
 
My loan shares a field with one - an older, sometimes bolshy highland pony that will throw in the odd kick if he feels like it (thankfully never done it yet, but has threatened).

Sometimes I leave him in the field if bringing mine in to ride, or bring them both in.... I normally ask his owner/YO beforehand. If his owner isn't around, i'll also do his feed, hay, muck out etc. She also does the same for my ride if myself or my horses owner aren't around.

However, that's a happy agreement between us. If this rule has just been thrown on the OP without any discussion, that is completely unfair.

I'll also help/offer to bring in the other horses from the other field if need be. And may I add, i'm a "novice" - doesn't mean i'm nervous... not that the OP said she was.
 
The problem with DIY is, as you can see from replys on here, everyone has different views on how things should be done. Everyone has different routines and other demands in life.

Reading this thread I am so thankful to now be on a yard that for £50 per week they feed turn out and bring in 7 days a week. All the horses are settled, some are out overnight some out during the day. All this and only 5 mins from my house! I now can simply enjoy the time at the yard with my horse.

OP has had some ridiculous, uncalled for and callous comments.
 
Goldenstar said:
This is simply an issue with yet another badly run yard .
Any YOer who allows a horse on their yard who the owner has no third party cover for is frankly nuts .
I read these threads and I am just so thankful my horses are at home .
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and me!

TBH its unlikely that i would ever be on a yard with just 1 horse, as NMT and i work together with them, so as being as ours would be ok to be left alone(in paddocks side by side so not really alone) i certainly would not be risking myself or wasting time bringing in anyone elses horses and i wouldnt go to a yard that insisted on it.

I might swap favours with a friend by prior arrangement, but end up bringing in every tom dick and harrys bolshy mannerless pig just because.....no bleeding way!

if people's horses are not ok to be left they need to make an arrangement with a friend, pay someone on the yard, or pay staff, to get them in earlier (if they cant do it them self).

same with feeding, i wouldn't want someone else putting my feeds in and i wouldn't go round doing every horse on the yard just because i can be assed to get up earlier than everyone else.
 
I think it is a pretty common rule at many DIY yards and I can see both sides - the YO isn't going to come down and find the one remaining horse trashing the field in its distress, and its owner isn't going to come down and have to call the vet because the horse has tried to jump the gate, pulled a tendon in the mud by the gate, pulled a shoe off from doing a handbrake turn every ten yards, whatever. BUT, what if you are the last person down because another owner has shirked their responsibilities and known full well that some sucker is going to bring their horse in for them (stable is ready, haynet and water in), and having fetched your horse in, you go back for theirs which is now in a right state, tries to barge the gate, and flattens you in the process. No-one else is going to come down and find you (not all YOs do a bedtime check) and if it happened to me, being single, the first person to realise something was wrong would be a work colleague when I didn't turn up in the morning. I could have bled to death, or died from head injury or whatever by that time. This might seem far fetched but I had several near misses over the years and I was a very experienced owner and not fazed by other horses' antics. Just removing my horse from a field with 11 others in winter, no grass and everyone desperate to get in to a nice dry stable with the thought of food in the forefront of their minds, proved to be pretty hazardous (one girl got kicked when she was 4 months pregnant). In the end I had to rely on my horse who, getting on in years, had more or less given up being an idiot, and I could let her take herself through the field gate, across the yard and into her stable without me, while I beat the others back from the gate, then try to catch her up. Bless her, apart from accidentally going into someone else's stable once (she was losing her sight and I think she just mistook it) she never let me down, but I really wouldn't recommend it, and supposing the yard had been on the other side of the road from the field (not uncommon in semi-suburban yards)? It was pitch black at the field gate and the mud was almost up to the top of my boots during a wet winter - not good for trying to get out of the way of a determined 16.3hh heavyweight coming at you at the gallop!

I think that as the OP is happy that their horse is fine left in the field on its own, that the YO should ask them to sign a disclaimer that it is on their own head, and they aren't to abuse the trust by leaving the horse out all night when everyone else has to bring in, and then treat every horse as an individual and consider other requests on a case by case basis. It is much like when the rule is that horses have to be in by 5pm in winter - great if you are at school and finished by 4, or able to work flexi, but hopeless if you can't finish until 5 and then it is an hours drive to the yard. I'm afraid I wouldn't go there in the first place.
 
fatpiggy said:
I think it is a pretty common rule at many DIY yards and I can see both sides - the YO isn't going to come down and find the one remaining horse trashing the field in its distress, and its owner isn't going to come down and have to call the vet because the horse has tried to jump the gate, pulled a tendon in the mud by the gate, pulled a shoe off from doing a handbrake turn every ten yards, whatever.
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Well my opinion on that is if a YO does make this rule, that's absolutely fine, however the responsibility of bringing in the last horse lies with the YO, not some other livery.
 
Another slant on it - I wouldn't want my horse bringing in. I would want them out as long as possible... Also when I was on DIY I used to be short on time in the morning so would go down, turn out and leave. I wouldn't be happy for my horse to be brought in and put in a dirty stable, nor to feel obliged to do hay and water needlessly just in case another livery brought my horse in. I also wouldn't be happy for other liveries handling my horses - I've seem some overly harsh and others that overly treat, neither of which I do with my own.
 
quirky said:
I agree with this rule as someone who has a horse who goes bonkers if left alone.

The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.

This is precisely why I won't have mine on DIY yards. They seem to attract a certain breed of person.
Out of 25 years on livery, 2 years of DIY were the unhappiest/most stressful time I have spent as a horse owner.
Some people seem to treat making other peoples lives a misery!

Back to the OP.....
I can see your issues. There are some horses I would have to steel myself to bring in but I would do it and suing the owners would be the last thing on my mind.
Deep breath, brave pants on and away you go :D
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On the contrary...I personally would never have my horse on anything other than DIY, looked after by myself, in order to ensure that she is looked after 100% correctly.
 
It's all very well to say that you have an arrangement for someone to bring your horse in, but what happens when your friend takes her horse out to ride, leaving yours happily in the company of a few others and then the others happen to be brought in, and the last person doesn't bother about your now, alone horse ?

With turnout time in winter being a premium, would you not mind if you came down at 5pm, expecting to find your horse had been in for 30 minutes, only to discover it'd been brought in at 11am ?

The rule for not leaving a horse out alone is a sensible one, however with difficult horses, the owner should make arrangements that doesn't put other people and horses at risk. That's the price you pay for having an ill mannered horse.

I'm fortunate enough to have the choice whether to keep mine at home or on a yard, but I choose livery as I love my horses having lots company, better facilities and opportunities to work with other horses. Surviving on a yard means being tolerant, flexible and a reasonable communicator- and avoiding groups of three people or more when you hear the words being spoken; 'she never....' or 'I told him straight..'
 
The thought that anyone owns a horse without having Public Liability Insurance is mind boggling and that any yard owner permits such horse to be in their yard is beyond belief. A horse is a flight animal and anything can and often does scare them with disastrous consequences. To hack out, lead a horse around etc etc in a public place (& yes a livery yard of any sort would probably be deemed to be a public place in these terms) without cover is ridiculous. Get real folk and join the BHS/BS/BE etc etc Your membership will give you automatic Public Liability cover for all your horses and support the work of the Society.
 
In the real world its only sensible to guard yourself against those who do live in a blame society. I dont think the issue of liability shows a lack of competence, rather a lack of desire to be held accountable for someone elses horse - which I think is fair and understandable.
OP in this instance I assume everyone will have to sign something saying that if another person is hurt/property damaged etc etc etc its their responsibility (the owners) not the handlers? How legal that is and how it stands up in court would only live to be seen but I, like you, would be safeguarding myself against ever having to be in that situation.
 
Ranyhyn said:
In the real world its only sensible to guard yourself against those who do live in a blame society. I dont think the issue of liability shows a lack of competence, rather a lack of desire to be held accountable for someone elses horse - which I think is fair and understandable.
OP in this instance I assume everyone will have to sign something saying that if another person is hurt/property damaged etc etc etc its their responsibility (the owners) not the handlers? How legal that is and how it stands up in court would only live to be seen but I, like you, would be safeguarding myself against ever having to be in that situation.
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You cannot sign away your rights in English law so if in law a handler was held liable they would be liable no matter what the owner had signed .
 
Blurr said:
Yep, probably DIY was not for you, it takes a certain something to be able to organise that your own horse (who you know will stress if left alone and you care about very much) is never left alone rather than leaving it to chance.

As for your derogatory comment about DIYers, you may have just alienated a big proportion of this forum who look after their own horses and are proud to do so. We don't all have very low standards. It may depend on which yard you're on but the same goes for full livery yards, some of which have very low standards of care and treat their clients like idiots (I hasten to add that others are jolly nice indeed, but was just illustrating that there's good and bad in both camps (yards)).
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Clueless!

How can you ensure your horse is never left alone when people do not have the common courtesy to tell you the routine they follow 99.9% of the time is changing?
Oh yes, never turn the horse out......just in case.

Don't know what makes you think I don't look after my own horse, her being led out to a field and back in again, does not make that groom a full time carer.

Yes, there are people on the yard who don't see their horse from one week to the next, that is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to see and ride mine everyday.
 
Goldenstar said:
You cannot sign away your rights in English law so if in law a handler was held liable they would be liable no matter what the owner had signed .
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What about in Welsh law? Is there such a thing? :D

In that case, I wouldn't touch anyone elses horse - and I'd be quite happy to tell the YO just that.
 
I'm so glad I'm no longer on a yard.

I can see why the rule is put in place (in some cases) but do find it totally ridiculous.

Does this mean you have to lead the 2 horses in at once ? or can they stay alone whilst you put the other one in ? Would everyone have to arrange separate riding times so no one is out whilst the neighbor is riding ?

Where does it stop ? I would be miffed too.

Regarding the comment about OP shouldn't have a horse - what a ridiculous, rude comment to make, very constructive. I rarely post on HHO now, I get shot down for almost every single thing I post, I don't even know why I'm still here after all these years.
 
If a yo wants to introduce that rule where there are problem horses around let them be there to bring the last horse in, or reconsider the rule, why should anyone else be put at risk handling others arsey horses.
Most folks are ok handling most horses but there are some horses who can be absolute barstewards, in the past ive had to bring in an idiot in a chiffney because the owner cba to teach him how to lead , erm thats their job, not mine, after a few close calls with it rearing and boxing out they were left to their own devices, stuff that !!! If it was mine it would have been schooled and sorted but it wasnt , if i get injured who's going to look after mine ! Im another glad to be in my own place when i read things like this. Also looking at it from another pov, there are some folks i wouldnt want handling my horses at all
 
If you agree to catch in someone's horse voluntarily and it injures you, it is pretty much impossible to sue, because you agreed to the arrangement (and thereby agree to taking the risk of handling).

I would not agree to catching in any horse I was concerned about. I am loathe to catch in more than one at a time these days, although I will get mine and his best mate, but only because the mate is solid as a rock. If I were the OP, I'd simply state that I wouldn't be catching in random horses.
 
Well, I'm another who is even more delighted than before that our horses are at home!

I cannot believe that at least one poster feels that other DIY-ers should organise their lives around someone else's horse that can't be left out on its own.
Nor that people are expected to feed/put out/bring in other people's horses because their jobs or other commitments mean that they have to be at the yard earlier or later than most other people.
Who the hell wants to have to get up half an hour earlier because they have a dozen horses that don't belong to them to feed?
And I certainly wouldn't want other people handling my horses just because they happened to finish work early one day.
 
Sort of tangential, but are there really THAT many unhandleable horses about these days? This thread is making me a little sad thinking about how many people are cagey about handling other people's horses in case they kick off - or have had experience with dangerous horses on the ground . . . or perhaps I've just been either really lucky or really naive when handling other people's horses.

I've turned out three very fresh, bouncy OTTBs at once before now - yes, they were lively but nothing too awful. I used to routinely bring in/turn out mine and my dressage trainer's nutjob TB together - without incident. In fact, the only horse I've met so far (and I've met/handled hundreds) that I wouldn't lead with mine is a mare at our current yard who is extremely unpredictable with her back legs - but I have no issues dealing with her on her own.

My comment isn't an indictment on the handlers - I'm asking a genuine question about the number of "dangerous" horses mentioned on this thread as reasons for not wanting to handle other people's horses.

P
 
quirky said:
Clueless!

How can you ensure your horse is never left alone when people do not have the common courtesy to tell you the routine they follow 99.9% of the time is changing?
Oh yes, never turn the horse out......just in case.

Don't know what makes you think I don't look after my own horse, her being led out to a field and back in again, does not make that groom a full time carer.

Yes, there are people on the yard who don't see their horse from one week to the next, that is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to see and ride mine everyday.[/QUOTE}

'Clueless' is not making arrangements and just leaving things to chance or, indeed, 'common courtesy'. If you hadn't made arrangements then there was no onus on the other person to phone you, was there? What makes you so special that other liveries have to check in out of courtesty to tell you what they're doing?

I've no idea about what you do with your horse, and care less. But thank goodness someone else has the responsibility of organising putting it out and back in, as you don't seem to have the gumption. Nice that you turn up to ride though, well done for that.
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]

Its not down to Yard owner, its a diy yard - do it yourself. Its up to the owner to arrange the horse to come in if they can not be there

If this yard owner has the options of extra catch in 's then the owner can use this facility and pay for the horse to come in on days the owner cannot.

Or arrange with a fellow livery to do each others on alternate days which can help both so owners can have a day off from going to yard. This system is the cheaper option and can benefit both parties.

My DIY have the options of extra catch in- they do use it and I get a text to bring her mare in, If I don't then she remains out till owner gets there which is never long after the 4pm catch in time.

I fail to see how a Yard Owner has to be responsible for bring a horse in when there is no system set up in place.
 
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