Livery yard - Trading Standards?

I remember many years ago my farrier at the time having a tax investigation. He had done nothing wrong but it placed him and his family under massive stress for quite a period of time. OP - ask yourself this - if your best friend was the YO would you be following the same course of action? If the answer is no then you are not doing this for the right reasons.
FWIW most of the YOs in my area are farmers, as are we. All the yard owners are quite close knit and if a livery is a non payer/troublemaker then everyone rings/texts to make sure the other YOs have the heads up in case they are a approached. If you are seen as a troublemaker the same fate could await you.......
PS in case you are wondering our annual tax bill is more than the average UK family earns in a year ;)
Edited to add - this is the tax bill for the entire business not just the liveries - would hate anyone to read this and think they'll make a million from opening a livery yard because believe me you won't :)
 
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popsdosh said:
That is why I put the link up to the reporting page for the OP but I think its an assumption on the OPs part they really havent said why they believe. A business thats trying to avoid tax is highly unlikely to be issuing invoices and then not putting it in the accounts( that would be stupid beyond belief) they tend to try and operate under the radar but we are told they are advertising as well I would be very surprised if there is any issue they have to worry about .
I think most have tried to point out that apart from tax all the rest of the issues are not really of any concern to the OP.
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You would be surprised the lengths people go to to avoid tax!

I prepare GST (VAT for a business here in my town. I have done so for over 10 years. The original owners scraped by financially, their profit margin low. Three years ago the business sold, I still do the accounts for the new owner and what a surprise. This so called low return business is returning massive profits. Maybe five times what the previous owner was returning.

Some businesses will issue invoices to those that have either asked for them or to people they may not know well enough to be able to slip them through the radar.

Why should the OP have to reveal all the gory details to this forum. She asked a question regarding the running of livery yards.

I find it very alarming that you will jump hard on a person for having a horse while on benefit, yet actively approve of someone avoiding paying taxes.

We all suffer when the country is unable to raise the funds to educate the kids, look after the sick or care for the elderly. My English pension is £70 a week, and I paid my taxes, and for several years had a very high paying job.

As for the insurance - I too would be hoping the business had some form of policy in place - what if the YO's negligent? - the horses get out onto the road, because the YO failed to secure a gate properly? This did happen at the riding school I leased. The owner dropped some garden rubbish in the bonfire paddock and failed to shut the main yard gate. The horses broke through the electric fence and at 3am were all running up and down the main road.

Your horse may be insured for the damage it did but would the OP be insured to replace your horse. A bit like the - If you are shunted into the car in front by the car that drove into the back of your car, you are responsible for the repairs to the car in front of you, not the car driver of the one that hit you.
 
Tiddlypom said:
There seem to be be some very defensive people on here. If the owners/managers of the yard in question are doing no wrong, then surely they having nothing to fear?

Thanks, OP, for starting a very interesting and revealing thread. I hope that you have the answers you looked for.
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Just what I was thinking. Tax evasion, in my mind, is theft. The same as benefit cheats & insurance fraud. Ultimately, it is the honest folk that get screwed over.
 
Spring Feather said:
How? What is the tax man going to do to remedy a welfare issue?

(I didn't actually read there was any welfare issue however??)
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I once came the wrong side of a livery yard and riding school that was abusing horses. Buying them knowing they were for light hacking only and using then in jumping lessons, not calling the vet for sick horses, incompetent instructors putting riders in danger and causing injuries, etc.

I reported them to the Council and to the RSPCA, neither of them thought they could do anything (the yard owner was a terrific actor and could lie for Britain).

So I checked the tax status and found that the business was registered as not trading. I reported it to the tax office, and the business was shut down and the yard now runs as diy livery only.

I thought that was a pretty good result.

I am shocked by how many people on this thread are happy with tax evasion by livery suppliers!
 
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ChesnutsRoasting said:
Just what I was thinking. Tax evasion, in my mind, is theft. The same as benefit cheats & insurance fraud. Ultimately, it is the honest folk that get screwed over.
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Unless the livery yard is massive and does full and part livery, then they are probably more likely making a loss. So no tax evasion there. Judging from previous threads, the livery yard in question is pure DIY.

Just done my tax return for this year, and I made £1500 in the whole year. I only do part livery. Obviously, I don't run it to make money :D
 
Wagtail said:
Unless the livery yard is massive and does full and part livery, then they are probably more likely making a loss. So no tax evasion there. Judging from previous threads, the livery yard in question is pure DIY.

Just done my tax return for this year, and I made £1500 in the whole year. I only do part livery. Obviously, I don't run it to make money :D
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I mean this kindly but you are mad .
 
Wagtail said:
Unless the livery yard is massive and does full and part livery, then they are probably more likely making a loss. So no tax evasion there. Judging from previous threads, the livery yard in question is pure DIY.

Just done my tax return for this year, and I made £1500 in the whole year. I only do part livery. Obviously, I don't run it to make money :D
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A livery yard is a business. If it doesn't make a profit thats taxable or acceptable to the Yo then they have a choice - continue to run it for personal reasons, run it at a loss or fold it - Iike many, many other small businesses in this country who do pay their tax & run on the right side of the law.
 
A typical diY livery yard around my way has twenty five boxes being rented for thirty five pounds a week, an income of around fifty tlhousand a year not including sales of fodder, bedding, and additional services which add at least another fifty percent if they make their own forage. Obviously there are costs in maintaining grazing, fences, yards, arenas and stables, but they are way over the tax paying threshold unless they have a very creative accountant.

I've known of many people earning what appears to be sufficient income to raise families in decent size houses solely from a livery, forage and arena hire business, but it does require a decent number of stables.
 
seejay said:
A typical diY livery yard around my way has twenty five boxes being rented for thirty five pounds a week, an income of around fifty tlhousand a year not including sales of fodder, bedding, and additional services which add at least another fifty percent if they make their own forage. Obviously there are costs in maintaining grazing, fences, yards, arenas and stables, but they are way over the tax paying threshold unless they have a very creative accountant.
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Not necessarily.

Firstly even if there is full occupancy of all the boxes and no liveries are poor payers you are still only at £45500.

If they don't own there is rent, even they do own then are there mortgage payments?

If they are lucky enough to own outright then there are business rates.

And you might be shocked at how much maintaining all the facilities and grazing would cost plus the people to manage it.

Not saying they are losing money but they may be in profit for only a small amount at the end of it.
 
I know of a least three people, one who was close family, who run things at a virtually at a loss, or run a separate enterprise which they buy equipment for on which they claim tax relief on( I think its capital investment?), and they use this for another use or offset the lossmaking business, which has conveniently bought a smart lorry to carry livestock. against other income and capital gains.
 
Are people missing the fact that you pay tax on any income over about ten thousand pounds? A twent five box livery yard grossing fifty grand would need a good accountant or terrible management not to be evading tax.
 
seejay said:
A typical diY livery yard around my way has twenty five boxes being rented for thirty five pounds a week, an income of around fifty tlhousand a year not including sales of fodder, bedding, and additional services which add at least another fifty percent if they make their own forage. Obviously there are costs in maintaining grazing, fences, yards, arenas and stables, but they are way over the tax paying threshold unless they have a very creative accountant.

I've known of many people earning what appears to be sufficient income to raise families in decent size houses solely from a livery, forage and arena hire business, but it does require a decent number of stables.
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Most DIY yards charge £20 - £25 per box per week. What they charge for hay and haylage etc also does not earn much as it costs a lot to make. Business rates are charged on each and every stable no matter whether it is occupied or not. Just 5 - 8 horses here cost £450 a year in water and then for every livery, there's an owner using stable lights and floodlights and boiling kettles or using hot water. Then there is field maintenance, fertilising, harrowing, weeding, sowing, fence mending. If you have an arena the business rates are between £1 and £2.50 per square metre. If you have a cross country course, that too is rated. My friend had to close her DIY only yard because she was making a loss.
 
If you want to check out business rates you can do so here.


I checked a couple of local yards, makes interesting reading and not only stables attract rates but offices, schools, horsewalkers, storage barns, tack rooms etc

http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/en/basic

Click on find my valuation. put in the postcode for a yard you know

Example 11 boxes, minimal facilities just a school and a little storage £5500
 
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seejay said:
Are people missing the fact that you pay tax on any income over about ten thousand pounds? A twent five box livery yard grossing fifty grand would need a good accountant or terrible management not to be evading tax.
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Actually if you are running a business this is not true - you don't pay tax on income, but on profits. So with rent, business rates, insurance, costs of feeding, keeping the fields safe and fertilised etc, water, electricity fuel and insurance for a land rover, wages for an employee plus employer`s NIC...plus loads of other things others can probably add, there probably isn't a huge amount of profit. And if it's a husband and wife running it as partners they each have a personal allowance of around £10k before they pay tax.
 
Its like everything in life, theres good and bad on both sides, something has stirred the op up enough to want to do what she is doing,But some of you are judging her without any idea of what is going on at the yard or why she is doing what shes doing.
Theres been some nasty comments hurled her way for no reason
 
But then it wouldn't be that difficult to ask yard owner if they were insured, and then make a decision as to whether to be a livery on an uninsured yard? I personally think this post highlights what is wrong with the equestrian world.... Lots of talking and whispers behind backs, instead of speaking up or minding your own.
 
mollymad said:
But then it wouldn't be that difficult to ask yard owner if they were insured, and then make a decision as to whether to be a livery on an uninsured yard? I personally think this post highlights what is wrong with the equestrian world.... Lots of talking and whispers behind backs, instead of speaking up or minding your own.
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Speaking up could lead to repercussions depending on the YOs disposition & minding your own when a person could be breaking the law whilst others do the right thing is why this country is going to the dogs.
 
ChesnutsRoasting said:
Speaking up could lead to repercussions depending on the YOs disposition & minding your own when a person could be breaking the law whilst others do the right thing is why this country is going to the dogs.[/

And if the YO is doing nothing wrong, then it is ok to cause them unnecessary stress. I dont think our country is going to the dogs because a livery owner may or may not be paying tax, may or may not be insured.
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I can't see the big deal per se of having a company audited. It's fairly normal over here to be tax audited every few years and 'it ain't no big thing', however it is a waste of tax payers money actually *sending* them to a business when the accuser actually has no knowledge whatsoever of the business owners situation or tax liabilities.
 
Tnavas said:
I find it very alarming that you will jump hard on a person for having a horse while on benefit, yet actively approve of someone avoiding paying taxes.
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If you are accusing me of saying that Please FGS read my bloody post! I actually put up the link for the OP to report the issue to HMRC.
Perhaps you would like to retract that statement or dont quote me in future.

As for the insurance just because they dont have insurance it does not change their liability if there is an issue! It just means they risk losing everything if things do go wrong. Its a businesses choice if its not mandatory. As others have pointed out maybe liveries should take a bit more responsility themselves and not use yards that dont have adequate cover because ultimately if its their horse that gets out and causes an accident its them im going for not the yard owner!
We all know though 80% of liveries today are going to the cheapest yard and that may be because they cut corners now is that the provider of liveries fault or the owner going there !
 
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hertsrider said:
ChesnutsRoasting said:
Speaking up could lead to repercussions depending on the YOs disposition & minding your own when a person could be breaking the law whilst others do the right thing is why this country is going to the dogs.[/

And if the YO is doing nothing wrong, then it is ok to cause them unnecessary stress. I dont think our country is going to the dogs because a livery owner may or may not be paying tax, may or may not be insured.
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If the YO is abiding by the law, then they should have nothing to fear. One livery owner not paying their taxes will not make a dent in this countries GDP but a hundred livery owners? A hundred shop owners, a hundred house clearance firms, a hundred plumbers - I could go on. Turning a blind eye to dishonest businesses or benefit cheats or fraudulent insurance claims results in this country's honest taxpayers paying more.
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honetpot said:
I know of a least three people, one who was close family, who run things at a virtually at a loss, or run a separate enterprise which they buy equipment for on which they claim tax relief on( I think its capital investment?), and they use this for another use or offset the lossmaking business, which has conveniently bought a smart lorry to carry livestock. against other income and capital gains.
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You cannot offset a lose making business they are taxed as seperate entities. Or should I say the loses from one business cannot be offset against another when calculating tax liability .
 
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criso said:
If you want to check out business rates you can do so here.


I checked a couple of local yards, makes interesting reading and not only stables attract rates but offices, schools, horsewalkers, storage barns, tack rooms etc

http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/en/basic

Click on find my valuation. put in the postcode for a yard you know

Example 11 boxes, minimal facilities just a school and a little storage £5500
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The interesting thing is that business would have no business tax to pay due to the small business rebate. up 6K and then a sliding scale up to 12K
 
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