Loan Pony Breach of Contact

Black_Horse and Queenbee, have you read the entire thread?

OP I suggest getting your own and putting it on livery for what you are paying. I nearly fell over when I read how much it was - I pay less than that on DIY livery for TWO!

And lastly - quite literally taking the pony from under your sons nose is not on :mad:
 
The personal attacks have really surprised and upset me so much so I am still sitting here wondering why my request has produced so much animosity I have not sought sympathy only advice. My circumstance may be unique and I have probably shot myself in the foot posting as I have but that does not give anyone the right to be so unkind.

If the vast majority of this thread is truly what horse/pony owners feel about people part loaning or sharing their animals then its no surprise we have been treated the way we have.

A contract is supposed to protect both parties from abuse with clear agreement on the terms and conditions for use. Before I posted I did a search to find a similar post to mine and only found those who animals had been stolen or abused, you rely on those signed contracts to protect your interests why should I not be able to rely on the very same contract to protect ours?
 
Please excuse me if this has been said, but why can't you just sit down with the owner, smile, and work out what's what?
 
First things first, you are part loaning, and paying for days of week with a contract.
You are correct.

I have however previously had to take legal action with a horse that I had on loan. I tried him more than once, arranged everything with owner, signed loan agreements/contracts. I never actually got to ride the horse after he arrived, as it was in very poor condition when she hacked it over to my yard where my livery was swapped from schooling to rehabilitation as his condition was so poor and his tack not fitting. (A lot worse condition than when I tried him). He then started collapsing, the first time when the vet was there, he just collapsed on the concrete yard, not even bending his legs. He had sever liver malfunction.
His owner wouldn't take him back, or contribute to any vets fees, despite the fact she refused to let us pay for his insurance or claim on it.
Several recorded letters later we managed to get her to take him back. I can entirely see it from her point of view, but as it turned out, her YO had stopped feeding him when she knew he was leaving, it was the end of winter, no grass. She kept him on full livery previously so didn't really have any idea.
My mum dealt with it mostly, but I believe the loan contract said he was for hacking etc, and through her refusing to claim on insurance and us paying £1000 in a month for vets etc, we managed to get her to take him back.
 
Nfp20 said:
Given the response on here I can only assume that most horse owners are just looking for a cash cow.
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Nfp20 said:
works out as £75 per week (£25 per day) so we pay approx £325 per month £975 for 3 months give or take a week or two.
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Despite the ups and downs of this thread I'll take what you've posted at face value Nfp20...

The first bit - no, or most responses would have been to suck it up and keep paying...

The second bit - geez, they saw you coming and I think possibly, your own belief in 'needing' a special type of arrangement because of your son's medical condition has maybe skewed your expectations of having to pay inappropriately... Were your child 'complication free' I doubt you'd have considered such a ludicrously outlandish amount of money...

Let's be realistic... Yep, they're in breach of contract... Yep, it sounds as if they're taking the proverbial and then some... But where exactly would fighting or getting hissy over all of this get you? What benefit for you and your son? Because if there's none, other than pride and needing to stamp your foot and try and force someone to do the right thing; walk away and sort something else out... An inconvenience? Yes... But life is too damn short to fight over 'unnecessary' stuff, particularly when your normal day to day stuff might be more demanding than for others... You'll still be back at the drawing board looking for a wee pony for your family to enjoy - and this is a family thing, not all about your son...

Cut your losses, conserve your energy, find another pony to loan at a reasonable cost from reasonable people who will be willing to look at your family, including your son, as potential sharers without prejudice... Or do a proper loan and take over full care - at that price you could probably get assisted livery of some sort... Or have your own sharer that would cover the days you're busy...

This pony will not be the only one out there that your lad can develop a connection with - and unfortunately, as another poster pointed out, children (no matter what their medical status) do still need to deal with changes, albeit it is easier for some than others... Having had a child myself with some interesting complications, I have been there... Ultimately, there will be a lot less headwork for you in finding a pony than trying to force others to live up to their responsibilities... Cut your losses, take a deep breath and start looking for another perfect pony who'll help give your family some special times... That, really, is the important thing here...

Good luck... :)
 
Nfp20 I think it's ridiculous and awful how you have been treated on this thread. You are obviously level-headed and intelligent (unlike some posters here) and know what you are talking about.

As regards legal advice I think you are well within your rights to seek it, especially if a contract has been drawn up. However if there is a clause in it which enables the owners to terminate the agreement with no notice, immediately then unfortunately you are unlikely to get very far.

Although pony's owners have been a bit obnoxious with showing up and taking the pony away from you and your son I think the only possible way to resolve this difficulty is to chat with the owners and be ever-so-polite and flexible with them. Explain things in a clear way and that you agreed to such a specific contract because you needed to...state that they agreed to such a contract as well.

It is such a difficult situation for you :( It is a shame that there are such people in the horse world who don't have common politeness.

If the chat with the owners doesn't prove fruitful then it may be your only option to walk away unfortunately. I guess this is just what can happen and the only way to be sure to keep your own routine is to get your own (although this would obviously throw up problems too).

Hope this is all resolved soon and some ignorant posters haven't completely put you off this forum as they almost have me. :)
 
Nfp20 said:
The personal attacks have really surprised and upset me so much so I am still sitting here wondering why my request has produced so much animosity I have not sought sympathy only advice. My circumstance may be unique and I have probably shot myself in the foot posting as I have but that does not give anyone the right to be so unkind.

If the vast majority of this thread is truly what horse/pony owners feel about people part loaning or sharing their animals then its no surprise we have been treated the way we have.

A contract is supposed to protect both parties from abuse with clear agreement on the terms and conditions for use. Before I posted I did a search to find a similar post to mine and only found those who animals had been stolen or abused, you rely on those signed contracts to protect your interests why should I not be able to rely on the very same contract to protect ours?
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OP- you might find that the responses stemmed from your 2nd post which insulted all the people who had replied.....people on here do not know you...they can only work off what you write. I read a number of posts before I replied...when I did I chose to offer advice as I you had already explained that you had been abrubt.

IMO - the way the post reads it implies that you are inflexible and the contract is a contract.....I can see why you feel like this but it probably feels a little abrubt to us people who do not know you.

I chose to write with purely advice...as I get the impression that you are a mum at her wits end! but there are people on here that you offended and unfortunately that does tend to set off a thread in a bad direction.

You are right to be cross about this agreement...you can only walk away now, its sad but the agreement albeit legal will not make for a good relationship between you and the owners.

Please do not assume all horse owners would treat part loaners like this (another reason people are upset with you). I wouldn't and most I know wouldn't either.

There are many nice people looking for sharers....just be careful when you explain your needs to them....horse owning is stressful at times...if you come along with a list of demands it may have put people off....remember your priority is your son...the owners priority is the pony...so you need to meet somewhere in the middle.

Maybe present your issue gently and look for someone understanding....I cannot believe that other people where going to charge you more because your son has autism...thats disgusting.

Hope you find a nice new pony for your son to enjoy.
 
Your question relates specifically to the legal aspects of contracts and you are finding it hard to consider other aspects touched on by some members here, which are also highly relevant.

My question is this: Did you get this contract legitamised by a solicitor specialising in equine law, based on the 2006 Animal Welfare Act, under which all equine contracts are legitimised?

Horse contract agreements need to be certified over their legitimacy.

If you or the owner have neglected to do this you have not ensured legal protection for either party.

It is rare, albeit impossible, for you as a loaner/sharer to have drawn up such a contract when you are not the legal owner of the animal and then be able to enforce it. So, who drew up the contract? You or the owner, and was it legitamised by a solicitor?
 
Nfp20 said:
I have a loan pony on contract at the moment for my son a couple of days a week which for us is perfect as an ideal starting point as he's a toddler.
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Honestly, I think the issue here is that what you have is neither a proper loan nor a share agreement - whatever the contract says - and that's muddying the waters with regards to expectations on both sides.

My understanding of loaning is that you have sole care and "use" of the horse/pony, while as a sharer the primary responsibility of care is still with the owner.

In this particular circumstance, my advice would be to sit down with the owners over a cup of tea (or a glass of wine) and discuss this openly and honestly. As it's technically a share rather than a loan arrangement, there does need to be some communication and give-and-take on both sides. Yes, it's inconsiderate (and borderline rude) of the owners to keep changing the dates you have access to the pony . . . but they may not realize how distressing this is for your son - and, at the end of the day, the little mare is theirs. I suppose technically the Pony Club Camp (and any other events they want to do with the mare) should have been written into the contract between you . . . but I'm not sure you'll gain much (other than creating ill will in a community which is notoriously small/close-knit) by either threatening or taking legal action to stop them taking her.

In your shoes, I would find another pony and take on a full loan - that way you will have much more "control" and consistency. I know you feel that this mare is perfect for your son - and that he will be (understandably) disappointed if his relationship with her comes to a close, but there are plenty of other super, safe first ponies - just talk to your local pony club.

Best of luck.

P
 
Nfp20 said:
works out as £75 per week (£25 per day) so we pay approx £325 per month £975 for 3 months give or take a week or two.

So its not cheap but its not expensive either given other loans that I saw available. We also brought hay, feed, replacement buckets, winter rugs, reflocked their saddle but also brought our own fitted tack etc that were not part of the agreement but which I felt was a fair additional contribution. We don't use their grooming kit I raided my old one and replaced a few of my brushes and kit plus a starter grooming kit for my son.

Obviously riding and safety equipment and insurance is our own responsibility.
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You've been had. I don't pay that much to keep my OWN horse a month. For that amount of money you can have one on full loan, put it on assisted or part livery and still have change leftover - with sole use!

P
 
OP I think you need to consider this from a practical angle only and try to remove emotion from the situation:

- the loan is not suited to you, it's best to get out of it. Terminate the contract for breach and ask for your money back. If they refuse consider getting legal advice but it will depend on the cost.

- contact your local RDA. They should be able to help with lessons while your son is looking for another pony and maybe even suggest a suitable pony through word of mouth.

- be wary of charges. Your son's autism should make no difference to the cost of loaning or part-sharing a pony. He needs a reliable lead rein pony - all toddlers need a reliable lead rein pony, no need to pay more.

Best of luck
 
I read the first few pages of this thread yesterday and have just looked at how much you're paying. As someone who works with children, including those with autism, I would say that the best thing you could do is get your own pony. You could easily afford it and the daily routine would be great for your boy. At three I'd be very surprised if he knows the days of the week he's expecting to ride and as a pony/ child bond is very especial, with your own he could build that over years. It would also help him if mum isn't strung out worrying about what's right and just!
 
I agree Booboos, but I believe she has taken emotion out of the situation.

What she cannot come to terms with is that she thought she had covered all eventualities by having a contract, which she believed was set in stone ..... she cannot understand why this contract has been broken and feels it is illegal for the contract to be broken by the other party. She now wants to know about legal redress to ensure it is restated.

She does not want any problem solving or further discussion about any alternative things to do, now or in the future.

She is only concerned about the contract - this is all she wants addressed in her original post to the forum.
 
I think Ladydragon & Polarskye have put what a lot of people have been trying to tell you very well.
I also suspect a lot of the responses may also have been influenced by a recent mega thread where a poster came on & complained about something that was happening at her yard, the owner of a pony was completely slated by some posters despite others pointing out that we were only hearing one side of the story. The poor owner made a long & detailed post at 4am the day after her pony was pts giving a completely different account. Many of us will be thinking - sounds like this lady is being treated really badly BUT if we heard the owners side what would we think then? Will we be seeing an anguished counter story tomorrow?
The words you have written have offended people & given an impression that you can be haughty & arrogant. Maybe this is harsh, maybe you are justifiably angry, upset & exhausted but your posts do come across this way & they are the only thing that people on this forum have to make a judgement on. Is it possible that this is what has gone wrong in this relationship. Maybe you have upset the owners of the pony & they don't want to share with you anymore but feel mean taking the pony from your little boy, so they are trying to make you take that decision. If so, it would be cowardly, but if your tone in talking to them is the same as your tone here perhaps it's understandable.
TBH I can't imagine someone charging £75pw or on those terms unless they didn't really want to share.
 
I've not read all of the thread.

When sharing you need to be more flexible, we all have things going on in.life even if we try to stick to a schedule.

I do think.the owners are being a bit unfair, turning up on your day and taking pony off your son, but why did you let this happen?
You should have said had said sorry we are riding now.
Then to stay and untack pony, why?
Leave it to them.

Pony club, shows and day changes will happen but they should give you a decent amount if notice.

Other children riding on your days shouldn't be a problem but you should have first.choice on time.

I think you need a good chat with the owner.

If things don't change then find another pony.

Have you tried the rda?
Even a normal riding school could be very accomadating if you explain your needs especially during off peak tines.
 
HilaryG said:
Is it just me that finds this a bit unbelievable?

£75 a week and three months in advance for three days use of a LR pony.

I have never seen ponies for part loan advertised for this price (never mind more expensive as the OP states).

If the owners are genuinely charging this sort of money you would think that they would do everything possible to keep the pony on part loan and keep the money coming in.
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Absolutely, this isn't real, someone of this supposed intellect who has access to free legal representation yet is prepared to be completely ripped off! :confused
 
That seems hugely expensive. I would buy a pony or full loan a pony and keep it at livery if I were you. Don't bother with legalities it won't get you anywhere.
 
Achinghips, I see your point and I feel for the OP but she can't enforce the contract in the way she wants because the owners have a termination clause themselves which I assume they will exercise if they become sufficiently annoyed.

A loan contract is not particularly binding on either party as it can usually be terminated with due notice. If the owners feel they cannot fulfill their part of the deal they will simply take their pony back. Because of this I don't think OP will gain much by persuing the enforcement of the contract. Much better to draw a line under it, get her money back and look for a more suitable alternative - especially in light of the huge amounts of money she is paying!
 
OP walk away, there will be a pony just as good somewhere else and as has been said before your son will adjust. I know being a Mum myself how much you want to protect your child, even more so him being Autistic, but he's 3 so a change in pony at his age surely wont be that much of upheaval?

I was gobsmacked when you posted about how much you are paying, £75 for 3 days for a LR pony is preposterous :eek: That alone tells me the ponys owners are royally taking the mickey, regardless of the other actions/equipment, you have taken/provided.

If it was me in your position no matter how perfect the pony was, the situation isn't, there would be no question IMHO.
 
Yes I have read all the posts, has nrp had a sticky deal? Yes, although It doesn't seem like this has always been the case.
One thing is really annoying me!!! This is a 'share' not a 'loan'. Money is changing hands, it is not a loan!!! Someone who can patronise the posters that they 'clearly' don't understand contracts, should perhaps have a clearer understanding of the arrangement she actually has!

Has op been taken for a ride at £25 a day?! Yes! I used to ask £100 PCM this was for (3 days a week) I think, and I'm sure the costs if keeping a 15.1 tb x are far higher than a little pony.

But what I need to stress is I really do not like the sharers paddy about a horse that she doesn't own! I agree that it we take what op says at face value, it is a cruel thing to do to a child... Walking up and taking it to ride. But there does have to be flexibility, my mare was used on the shares day by my friends daughter for school show jumping, but then sharer often had my mare on one of my days to go out riding with her friend.

I absolutely stand by what I said earlier and 100 percent agree with black horse regarding ops son.

To me the whole thread seems a little off and perhaps a joke, £75 per week, 3 month in advance... Why the hell would anyone pay for this when it is cheaper to have your own and share. £5 extra per week because of the autism!!! £60 per week is still extortion but who the hell would line the pockets of people who think that way? If I were in ops position that would have been where my contact with the owners ended, I would have been so offended! I also find it believeable that the owners would do something along the lines of suggest different days, different ponies, take away for pc camp, these are all fair enough... Things change. But If I we're op and coming on here for advice then when describing the situation I'd have told everyone about the day the owners turned up and took the pony away so they could ride on my sons day and I was left like a skivvy! But no, op left it until a few pages in (and a load of negative posts) before telling us this??!

Op would also have us believe that the contract was renewed a couple of weeks ago... No offends op but are you seriously asking everyone on here to believe that you who knew in advance that things were very wrong and not at all suited to you or your son, actually had the stupidity to bind yourself to another 3 month contract?!

No, I think there is a great deal of embellishment in here!!! As an owner do I think that op sounds a nightmare... Damn right! I know sharers have rights, so do owners and this sharer would have been given her marching orders by me I need flexibility, but in return I'd offer the same. As an owner, there is no way I'd be entering into a 3 month notice period with anyone sinner or saint! Furthermore, I know plenty of children who have been offered last minute places on pony club camp, it may not have been possible for the owner to have given a lot of notice, it also appears that they tried to offer a substitute to get around the issues you complain about... It would appear to me that op is NOT flexible and reading between the lines it is the owners that have tried to be accommodating. I am not supporting them just because they are owners and I agree that they are ripping op off, and if op is to be believed the incident with taking the pony is cruel and out of order, but aside from that I do think that everything about ops attitude is rubbing me up the wrong way, my bull s--t metre is off the scale. I absolutely would not share with a woman like op, that does not make me a bad owner
 
ok unless im being a bit thick here, pony club camp is in the summer holidays- so late July or August, surely telling the OP now is plenty of notice!

And I know it looks like the OP has been treated badly recently, but if the owner requested a change of days first (as implied in the OP), and this was denied, then surely they were likely to stop asking permission and start telling?

Frankly I can see this from both sides but all its made me conclude is that sharing with young children is a very bad idea!! (and no i dont think the autism would be important in this- most small children who love their ponies would be upset and disappointed to be told they couldnt ride and flexibility is important in a share!)
 
Well, don't worry utw, you wouldn't be, although my old sharer is on here... You can always ask her what I'm like, we are still excellent friends!
 
Ok bh but whose horse shall we share? Yours or mine? Or shall we share both? ;) seeing as my girls out of action and Ben is unbroken shall we go with yours? Xx how much you charging per day? I have an ace contract we can use too xx
 
Op, whether I believe you or not, whether or not I like your style, and whether I think you are in the wrong or not. Get out of the contract, whatever the case it is null and void and buy your own, you can always loan out or share for a couple of days with someone who suits your needs.
 
It sounds to me Luke you got the pony through the dark, wet expensive months and now it's time for the fun to start again. of course things will only get worse once the summer holidays start

I'd quietly gather your rugs and tack together at home before you speak up

Then tell the owners that the cash cow is going to pastures new and not to bother calling you when this winter sets in

It's worth asking for money back as they breached the contract but Having access to free legal advice I am sure you will know whether the contract is solid enough to hold up in the small claims court
 
Or as you have the tack and your child loves the pony maybe they would sell it? If their child is a bit older and off to camp etc perhaps they'd like a bigger better pony
 
I finally made it to the end with a headache lol!

OP sorry to hear your situation, but I do think they saw you coming with the amount they are charging I got 3 on DIY for not much more than what your paying a month, I also have 2 sharers that pay £100 each a month & both ride 2/3 days a week. I am not going to get involved with who is right & who is wrong, but personally I would walk away & put it down to experience I know it will be upsetting for your son, but there are plenty of ponies out there or maybe consider buying a pony then you can have you own routine with no interuptions from others. Sorry not much help, but I do hope it gets sorted.
 
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