Loaning and vets bills

Cornypony

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I am about to get a children's pony on loan and the agreement says I am liable for all vets bills which is worrying me slightly. There is no insurance for the pony, which is not valuable (money wise, she is a lovely pony though!) .
I agree that I should be liable for vets bills for everyday conditions and I would also obviously expect to be liable for any accidents that occur while she is with us.
But thinking worst possible scenario, what happens if she suddenly developed a major ongoing condition in the next six months? Would I be liable for all the bills then?
Has anyone ever seen a loan agreement with a clause about a limit to the money spent?
I need to give three months notice, so couldn't simply hand the pony back if there was trouble.
The owners are really nice and I can't foresee any trouble, but am just wary about signing a legal document that may come back to haunt me.
After a while I am sure the pony will become part of our family and I won't mind what the hell I spend on her, so please don't flame me for not caring.
I just want to know if this is normal in all loan agreements, as I haven't signed one before.
Thanks for any advice
 

milliepops

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I think this is pretty normal, I've had a few horses on loan and they've had the same clauses.

Why not look into getting some insurance if you are worried. My current loan is from a charity so I have her insured with a negligible market value and there's a note on my file to say she doesn't belong to me... but i've had 3 claims in 3 years and they have paid up with no issue.
You'd need to phone round some insurers to check they are happy with that kind of arrangement, the alternative is that the owner has the insurance in their name.
 

Goldenstar

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You are right to be cautious you need to clear about who is liable for any expensive long term conditions .
Be sure that you have it clear you can return the pony at any time and that's the end to your liability .
I know someone who got into a right muddle in exactly this situation horse needed long term treatment and the owner pushed the loaner into all sorts of expensive treatment when the loaner broken by the cost returned the horse ( it was not as straight forward as that ) the owner it PTS.
it was a nasty time for the lady loaning the horse.
 

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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When I loaned mine to an equestrian college, the OWNER had the responsibility to insure the horse and not the loanee!!

It is always advisable for the owner to insure the horse, that way, if there is a Loss of Use claim then the owner will stand to benefit (and quite rightly) rather than the loaner.

Best thing is for the loaner then to cover every eventuality by taking out for e.g. BHS Gold membership.

It is normal practice for the loaner to undertake to cover veterinary costs though.
 

Deltic Blue

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Sounds about right really. I would get insurance in place, then if anything was to happen, you are covered :)
When I got quotes from Petplan, they actually have the option to choose that the horse is on loan and not owned by you, so other insurers might do that.
 

hairycob

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I have insured loan horses before. When one was PTS the insurance company (NFU) dealt with the owner for that part of the claim & me for the vet bills. I would be wary of a 3 month notice clause though.
 

Sukistokes2

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As a person who loans a horse to someone I would expect them to pay the vets and to insure the horse.
The three month notice is unreasonable, I have a two week notice period because I am able to take the horse back in that time, I would say a month is more reasonable.
 

Micropony

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If I was the owner I would want to insure myself so I knew the premiums were being paid and to avoid being out of the loop in case of any issues. But if I were paying the premiums as the loaner then I would only take out the cover I wanted (for example I certainly wouldn't be paying the extra for LOU!) and I would expect to be keeping any pay out.
 

Alliya

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When my girl was on loan i paid the insurance and had in contract that the loaner was to pay me and the insurance company had on there notes at all times that she was on loan to these people this is the vet they use they where able to contact the insurance company all bills paid directly to vet or me if i had already paid it

It worked as i knew that she was always covered
 

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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If I was the owner I would want to insure myself so I knew the premiums were being paid and to avoid being out of the loop in case of any issues. But if I were paying the premiums as the loaner then I would only take out the cover I wanted (for example I certainly wouldn't be paying the extra for LOU!) and I would expect to be keeping any pay out.

^^^ This is exactly why the owner should pay for the insurance......
 

ihatework

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^^^ This is exactly why the owner should pay for the insurance......

The best/safest way for all concerned is an insurance policy for vets fees in the owners name coming from the owners account. That way there is continuity in cover where ever the loan horse resides.

It is however perfectly reasonable to expect the loaners to pay or contribute towards the premiums while the pony is in their care and to cover any excess
 

3OldPonies

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When I was loaning there was a clause that said I was responsible for routine vet costs (vaccinations, teeth and worming) and for any costs incurred as a result of my negligence; any issues arising that were hereditary or existed prior to my starting the loan would be paid by the owner, even if diagnosis came after the start of the loan period. Costs incurred as a result of an accident (the pony was a bit lairy) would be split equally between us, with the owner insuring and me paying my share if the insurers wouldn't pay up. Bit long winded maybe, but I think it covered most eventualities fairly. I would not and could not have the last say with regard to PTS if it came to it that decision would rest with the owners at all times, unless an emergency and the attending vet was advising it on humane grounds especially if the owners were uncontactable (I think this is pretty standard on most insurance policies too).
 

SuperH

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When I loaned my old boy his loaner was responsible for all vet bills and insurance (if she wished to insure, I didn't make it compulsory). He was a long term loan, so basically her horse and she could do what she wished with him. We agreed if he needed anything major and she didn't wish to keep him we would discuss his options then and I would either have had him back or pts if too serious and impacting on his quality of life. As it turned out she had him for a good 10 years and eventually she made the decision to pts and not take him through another winter (he was an old chap by this point and suffering with his joints). She paid all costs associated with this. She did inform us what she was planning and we trusted her judgement as she loved that horse as much as I did.
 

Limbo1

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I have loaned a few.

One the owner payed the insurance. One the policy is in owners name but I pay the premum. The third I insure the pony as it is in the loan agreement.

3 months notice is a bit much!
 

Spiritedly

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One of mine is with me on long term loan and I pay all her vets bills. Since she has been with me she has been diagnosed with Cushings which requires medication but I am the one who pays for it all. As far as the owners and myself are concerned she is mine in all but name...they don't want to sell as want to know that she will go back to them should I ever not be able to keep her.
 

honetpot

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I have loaned several of my ponies out, as they were older ponies the costs of insuring them was not really financially viable but if you are worried get the owner to take out insurance and pay for it.
In my contract I pay for treatment for existing conditions, they only pay for injury and I fix a limit, which used to be £500. To be honest if the pony was seriously ill I would want the pony home. Its my risk that they are not covered for vet fees. I had one die out on loan( sudden heart attack) and I paid for the knacker to take him away.
You have to look at it this as if you are getting a really good pony, is safe and PC, if it was a car you would take out insurance and expect to pay.
 

alainax

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I guess the issue is if the pony is quite old and hard to insure, or at disproportionate cost in terms of its value.

Trouble with not owning it is you can't just say to pts if the bill far outweighs what you can afford. What if it colics and owner wants you to fork up the 5k£ vet Bill.

I'd certainly be looking at getting some clauses into the contract to limit liability to what would be reasonable.
 

GirlFriday

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I assume the three months notice is not 'either way'? I.e. Do they have to give you three months notice of wanting it back as well?

I can see that owner might want option to take it back immediately on welfare grounds but, other than that... I have a three month notice period at work and generally you'd know that far in advance of any major life changes so, not totally unreasonable I guess... You might want to check your notice period on grazing though...
 

nato

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When I loaned I was responsible for all vet bills and had one month notice to return the horse. There was also a clause to say that if the horse was "not fit for purpose" that I could return her, and we had the "purpose" set out in the contract. It was a basic BHS loan agreement.

I had insurance and when it comes to a loan horse I'd recommend you do the same. Three months is an unreasonable notice period IMO.
 

Maesfen

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When I loaned mine to an equestrian college, the OWNER had the responsibility to insure the horse and not the loanee!!

It is always advisable for the owner to insure the horse, that way, if there is a Loss of Use claim then the owner will stand to benefit (and quite rightly) rather than the loaner.

Best thing is for the loaner then to cover every eventuality by taking out for e.g. BHS Gold membership.

It is normal practice for the loaner to undertake to cover veterinary costs though.

As an owner, I pay the insurance and it's in my name but loaner has full authority to deal with the insurance company. I expect my loaner to pay all veterinary costs herself, both routine and emergency. As mare was on competition insurance the excess is quite high so I pay half of that if we have to make a claim. I would rather know my mare is covered than not and know that God forbid, the worse happens, that I will get the payout.

If I was the owner I would want to insure myself so I knew the premiums were being paid and to avoid being out of the loop in case of any issues. But if I were paying the premiums as the loaner then I would only take out the cover I wanted (for example I certainly wouldn't be paying the extra for LOU!) and I would expect to be keeping any pay out.

That is an awful attitude to have! Just because you have paid the premiums does not give you the right to claim for the whole price of the pony. By all means claim back what you have paid in premiums but the bulk of the money must go back to the owner; they have after all, lost their pony while it was in your care.

That has to be the most compelling reason why owners should continue to pay their own insurance and still have the horse in their name even if they do ask for a contribution towards the premiums from the loaner.
 

Micropony

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That is an awful attitude to have! Just because you have paid the premiums does not give you the right to claim for the whole price of the pony. By all means claim back what you have paid in premiums but the bulk of the money must go back to the owner; they have after all, lost their pony while it was in your care.

That has to be the most compelling reason why owners should continue to pay their own insurance and still have the horse in their name even if they do ask for a contribution towards the premiums from the loaner.

Well I agree with you completely on the latter point, but if an owner was putting an older animal on loan and not doing anything about insurance cover then I don't see that it's reasonable for them to expect to benefit financially from a policy that the loaner is paying for in its entirety. In that scenario the loaner is probably taking all manner of risks around exclusions for preexisting conditions, a high excess, and would also be left without anything to ride. The loaner could equally choose to insure for vet fees only, and not include any death benefit on the policy. If the owner wants insurance cover for the value of the horse then surely they would pay for it? I do understand that people put horses on loan for all sorts of different reasons and that there are many different types of loan agreements, but really?
 

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Would you be happy if you loaned out a horse, maybe you couldn't bare to part with it etc; the loaner insures it because for some reason you are unable to contribute financially; something happens and the horse is lost?
Not only have you lost any monetary value of your horse but the person that could have caused the loss goes and pockets the money for it.
As I said before; if they deducted their premiums paid and gave the reminder to the owner it would go some way towards recompense for the loss of the horse it wouldn't be so bad but to solely benefit from their loss is very underhand IMO.
 

Micropony

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Would you be happy if you loaned out a horse, maybe you couldn't bare to part with it etc; the loaner insures it because for some reason you are unable to contribute financially; something happens and the horse is lost?
Not only have you lost any monetary value of your horse but the person that could have caused the loss goes and pockets the money for it.
As I said before; if they deducted their premiums paid and gave the reminder to the owner it would go some way towards recompense for the loss of the horse it wouldn't be so bad but to solely benefit from their loss is very underhand IMO.

As I say, all loan agreements are different, but if I was not paying for my asset to be insured against loss I couldn't reasonably expect financial compensation in the event it was lost.

And yes of course a horse is a lot more to me than just an asset, I would never want to part with mine either by selling or loaning. I fully understand how emotionally difficult it would be to lose a horse that was out on loan, especially if the concern is that the loaner hasn't looked after it properly and the owner has been unable to take the horse back when they might have liked to due to financial constraints, or perhaps the only reason it was on loan to start with was because the owner couldn't afford to keep it.

But tbh what would break my heart in that scenario would be that the loaner hadn't looked after the horse properly, if indeed that had been the reason it died/was PTS, not what happened to the insurance payout for the loss of the horse, although I can appreciate that might be rubbing salt in a wound.
 

OldNag

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I am about to get a children's pony on loan and the agreement says I am liable for all vets bills which is worrying me slightly. There is no insurance for the pony, which is not valuable (money wise, she is a lovely pony though!) .
I agree that I should be liable for vets bills for everyday conditions and I would also obviously expect to be liable for any accidents that occur while she is with us.
But thinking worst possible scenario, what happens if she suddenly developed a major ongoing condition in the next six months? Would I be liable for all the bills then?
Has anyone ever seen a loan agreement with a clause about a limit to the money spent?
I need to give three months notice, so couldn't simply hand the pony back if there was trouble.
The owners are really nice and I can't foresee any trouble, but am just wary about signing a legal document that may come back to haunt me.
After a while I am sure the pony will become part of our family and I won't mind what the hell I spend on her, so please don't flame me for not caring.
I just want to know if this is normal in all loan agreements, as I haven't signed one before.
Thanks for any advice

I have been loaner and loanee.

I currently have one pony out on loan, and two on loan to us.

I have always paid insurance for any pony we have had on loan. Any vet, farrier, dentist, physio bills etc have been down to me while the pony is with us.

I do actually pay insurance on our veteran who is out on loan. I don't want to switch insurers at her age and it doesnt cost a great deal. She isn't worth much (if anything), its more for vet fees.

Two of the ponies we have had on loan developed conditions which required ongoing medication. That was down to me too, it's a risk you take whether you own or loan, I'm afraid.
 
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