Long and low is wrong???

[Trinkett]

Hello, I ended up on a Facebook profile of a classical dressage enthusiast and they were commenting on a article on how to stretch your horse. https://horsesport.com/magazine/training/forward-down-key-correct-stretching-posture/
they were saying that riding long and low is actually wrong for the horse, im pasting their comment here:
"
" ?? It is really important to NOT ride your horse like this for multiple reasons. The main being:
1) the forelimbs are stuck under the horse and the hind limbs are not able to step under in the correct range of motion, causes pelvic extension and all the joints from
The SIJ down will be incorrect.
2) the weight and forces from the movement are too much for the elastic recoil of the forelimbs to counteract - this is heavy on the forehand s.
3) the muscles, tendons ligaments fascia - the entire musculoskeletal system of all earth bound creatures, their sole Purpose is the hold the skeleton together! And when you “stretch” it puts very damaging forces on the body and makes the job of the musculoskeletal system impossible.

Does anyone have more to contribute as to why long and low is not ideal?"

What do you think about it?

 

[paddi22]

who was making the Facebook comments though, and what is their range of knowledge on it?

how are the forelimbs 'stuck' under the horse, unless it's ploughing along on it's forehand (which is what the article warns against). the horse isn't heavy on the forehand if the contact is correct and the pushing properly from behind. if the horse just sticks it head to the ground, sits on it's shoulders and pulls itself along, then thats not beneficial, but the article states that too. I haven't a clue what the point they are trying to make about the fascia etc is, in that case we'd never jump or gallop?

Facebook comments are generally a cesspool of incorrect knowledge.

 

[smolmaus]

3) the muscles, tendons ligaments fascia - the entire musculoskeletal system of all earth bound creatures, their sole Purpose is the hold the skeleton together! And when you “stretch” it puts very damaging forces on the body and makes the job of the musculoskeletal system impossible.

You know what, thinking about it the last time I did a big stretch my arms DID fall off so maybe she's right

 

[Trinkett]

who was making the Facebook comments though, and what is their range of knowledge on it?

how are the forelimbs 'stuck' under the horse, unless it's ploughing along on it's forehand (which is what the article warns against). the horse isn't heavy on the forehand if the contact is correct and the pushing properly from behind. if the horse just sticks it head to the ground, sits on it's shoulders and pulls itself along, then thats not beneficial, but the article states that too. I haven't a clue what the point they are trying to make about the fascia etc is, in that case we'd never jump or gallop?

Facebook comments are generally a cesspool of incorrect knowledge.

I don't want to sound rude but this person claims to have "groundbreaking" informations on how to classically train a horse and, upon reading on their profile, any horse that doesn't do classical dressage is lame ?? and that if a horse is lazy it means it's lame ??
This is why I posted here, I was curious because even my vet told me to help my horse to stretch down to better use her back, so I was quite confused to say the least!

 

[Trinkett]

You know what, thinking about it the last time I did a big stretch my arms DID fall off so maybe she's right

??????

 

[milliepops]

a horse spends hours each day grazing off the floor. I hardly think allowing or asking for a stretch to between shoulder and knee height is going to do anything to cause damage to the horse's soft tissue.
you have to wonder sometimes.

 

[milliepops]

I think in the past there have been people who kind of latch onto "long and low" as a way to ride your horse permanently. and there is something I remember reading about how biomechanically it is harder for the horse to engage behind with the topline stretched out. but the article addresses that, it's not saying that anyone should only ride their horse like that but should offer or ask frequently within a session. and that lobbing along on the forehand isn't what you are after. for me I think that's correct. we don't ride a horse in any static frame on a permanent basis. being able to change the frame & balance etc is part of training.

 

[Trinkett]

a horse spends hours each day grazing off the floor. I hardly think allowing or asking for a stretch to between shoulder and knee height is going to do anything to cause damage to the horse's soft tissue.
you have to wonder sometimes.

Exactly, but I was reading some more on the classical methods and it seems that stretching down is not "approved"?
https://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/i_long___low.html

 

[Renvers]

The perils of FB experts.Surely a horse working correctly in a long and low position with a rider is working in the same way as when they are in self carriage on long reins etc? With the core lifted and stomach engaged, the spine supported by that strong core they are able to move all four limbs correctly and swing through the body.

A classical trainer once showed a picture of a stallion that was strong and athletic moving in the field and he was moving in a long and low position.

 

[ester]

Exactly, but I was reading some more on the classical methods and it seems that stretching down is not "approved"?
https://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/i_long___low.html

I could have predicted that might be one of your links

 

[milliepops]

i don't generally put much stock in any "system" or training method that has someone's name on it.
Horses don't know they have to do a system, they are different every day and all have different strengths, weaknesses and needs.
You'd have to ride a horse for hours each week like that for it to become an issue IMO. you only have to feel the refreshing effect of an effective stretch on a horse that is working well to know that it's a useful thing to incorporate. How much is beneficial depends on the horse. With an established fit horse I tend to only do short stretching periods in between intense collection, it's just helpful to relax, release, and prepare for the next exercise.

if horses weren't meant to load their forehand they'd have been put together differently In training we try to counteract that and particularly the effect of dumping a rider mainly over the forelegs, but that's progressive and about balance, strength and locomotion IMO rather than posture specifically.

 

[paddi22]

I think you can tie yourself in knots trying to keep up with some blogs/advice/warnings ect. that article you linked to seems to take a drawing of a horse at one point in time on the lunge that is probably a millisecond and extrapolate a lot of information from it. like is it a very damaging picture in reality? is it any more damaging than having the horse running hollow? or bend to the outside with more pressure on one front shoulder?

scientific study and analysis is always good and worthwhile, but at a certain level it just goes above the head of daily life. I don't think any horse person could video a horse on the lunge perfectly and get 50 dressage and science experts to say 'yes this is the ultimate way to do it'. you can pick apart anything. anytime I see a Facebook comment being critical, you can usually 99.9% of the time click on the profile, pick any random picture of them riding and then know you can disregard what they say.

 

[Trinkett]

I could have predicted that might be one of your links

What does this mean?

 

[shortstuff99]

I think the issue with long and low is a lot of riders don't know why they are doing it or how they should be doing it, just that they think they should. That is never going to make for very effective schooling.

The basis for classical dressage is to teach the horse to ultimate collection, ergo lightening the forehand and taking weight behind. Riding long and low therefore is taken as counteractive to that. Does not mean that classical dressage doesn't involve stretching, it does, just not low. Normally stretching won't be any lower then the horses pelvis and the nose needs to come out. They are also do lateral flexing as well.

 

[Trinkett]

I think the issue with long and low is a lot of riders don't know why they are doing it or how they should be doing it, just that they think they should. That is never going to make for very effective schooling.

The basis for classical dressage is to teach the horse to ultimate collection, ergo lightening the forehand and taking weight behind. Riding long and low therefore is taken as counteractive to that. Does not mean that classical dressage doesn't involve stretching, it does, just not low. Normally stretching won't be any lower then the horses pelvis and the nose needs to come out. They are also do lateral flexing as well.

This is what I wanted to know! Thank you!

 

[ihatework]

This is what I wanted to know! Thank you!

To be honest the article you link explains it pretty well …. It’s about doing it the right way for the horse you are on at appropriate times.

 

[Trinkett]

To be honest the article you link explains it pretty well …. It’s about doing it the right way for the horse you are on at appropriate times.

Which article?
I'm talking about the classical part.
I don't really know why you people take the time out of your day to be annoying ?

 

[milliepops]

the article you linked to in the OP

 

[Trinkett]

I could have predicted that might be one of your links

Who knows you? What does that even mean?
Are you one of those boomers that don't believe you can find infos online?
Funny!

 

[milliepops]

I think the article is a very good explanation of what riders should look for in L&L and why it is useful. though I think I'd be a bit less black and white about whether a small amount of BTV is OK or not.

 

[milliepops]

Who knows you? What does that even mean?
Are you one of those boomers that don't believe you can find infos online?
Funny!

why are you getting tetchy now? I think you've had a lot of good replies. JLC is one of those trainers that people get a bit cult like about. Some of it is dressed up as science but there's little scientific about it.

 

[Trinkett]

the article you linked to in the OP

I was interested in the classical part, if I was reading the comment made by the classical enthusiast it may seems that there's no stretching in classical dressage, but shortstuff99 actually explained how they do the stretching

 

[ihatework]

Which article?
I'm talking about the classical part.
I don't really know why you people take the time out of your day to be annoying ?

WTF ?

 

[Trinkett]

why are you getting tetchy now? I think you've had a lot of good replies. JLC is one of those trainers that people get a bit cult like about. Some of it is dressed up as science but there's little scientific about it.

Because who knows them? It's like I'm on this website posting links and saying its the ultimate truth, while I'm just trading to understand how to be a better rider, trainer, owner. To dismiss an article that I found by someone that seems to be into the sport with a different perspective its just ignorant in my opinion
Also, I was just asking and only ignorant people dismiss those who make questions.

 

[milliepops]

I think this is an example of where Big C classical dressage is trying to distance itself from normal dressage following small c classical scales of training principles. if you look at the photos in the article in the OP what is described as stretching is not noseploughing the floor stuff, it is level with the shoulder or pelvis.

 

[Trinkett]

why are you getting tetchy now? I think you've had a lot of good replies. JLC is one of those trainers that people get a bit cult like about. Some of it is dressed up as science but there's little scientific about it.

I didn't know who JLC was, I just saw that he seems someone that approaches the training in a different way, and in one of those articles he talks about a book written by Jean Marie Denoix on the biomechanics of the Horse

 

[Renvers]

What does this mean?

I suspect it is a comment on the author of the article rather than about you.

Having read it I think his definition of long and low is different to the one I have been taught. He seems to think long and low is head down near the floor. I have always been taught it is head and next stretched forwards so the body is long, at the limit of longitudinal stretch where the body and legs are fully in self carriage.

 

[shortstuff99]

If you're interested in that style of training I would recommend doing some reading around this https://www.philippe-karl.com/philosophy

 

[Trinkett]

If you're interested in that style of training I would recommend doing some reading around this https://www.philippe-karl.com/philosophy

I'm just getting into the classical dressage, even though upon reading a little bit it seems that my coach was classically trained and he passed his knowledge down to me
Thank you!

 

[Trinkett]

I think this is an example of where Big C classical dressage is trying to distance itself from normal dressage following small c classical scales of training principles. if you look at the photos in the article in the OP what is described as stretching is not noseploughing the floor stuff, it is level with the shoulder or pelvis.

I don't really have "a dog in the fight", Im not really interested in saying c dressage is better than modern dressage, to me everything is a tool in the tool box, so certain attitudes don't make sense in my world!
I'm just trying to better understand the mechanics of the Horse, and since I'm a hypochondriac, to keep my horse in the best health possible while still riding ?