Long reining session today....

[Armas]

Todays session was long reining we have never actual long reined until today, we have lunged using long reins but thats it.
Armas was not too sure what to make of it or what to do. However he soon started to pick it up !
I think for the first attempt it went well and I am extremely happy with his progress.
For those that are interested in seeing the full session its on Armas FB page.
I have edited a cut version to give a taste of what we got up to today.


[youtube]4ENud35X5a8[/youtube]

 

[YasandCrystal]

I enjoyed this, as I think Armas did too. You may disagree, however I see him being sticky/not 100% right on his right hind at times. It is probably just a weakness he has there and no doubt this long reining work will all help to strengthen his back and sacrum.

 

[DabDab]

He was looking lovely when the rider was lunging him with the two reins - it was much softer, you must be really pleased. She is very far away from him when she is behind him though - I'd struggle to control a horse from that far away, but then I'm not the best long reiner. Thanks for the update

 

[ester]

armas just wondering is the lady local to you rather than staying? I think I sort of assumed she was staying as she was working him daily unless my sense of time when topsy turvey

I wish I got the sort of forwards reaction out of Frank as she does she wiggles a long rein and Armas

 

[Armas]

I enjoyed this, as I think Armas did too. You may disagree, however I see him being sticky/not 100% right on his right hind at times. It is probably just a weakness he has there and no doubt this long reining work will all help to strengthen his back and sacrum.

He has a problem with his Si in the past and is still a little weaker on one side. Thats one of the things we are going to be working on building more muscle at his haunch.

He was looking lovely when the rider was lunging him with the two reins - it was much softer, you must be really pleased. She is very far away from him when she is behind him though - I'd struggle to control a horse from that far away, but then I'm not the best long reiner. Thanks for the update

I am really pleased. If your interested the whole session is here. I enjoy watching the training.

armas just wondering is the lady local to you rather than staying? I think I sort of assumed she was staying as she was working him daily unless my sense of time when topsy turvey

I wish I got the sort of forwards reaction out of Frank as she does she wiggles a long rein and Armas

Yes she is local to me she is based next to the Ecole nationale d'équitation et du Cadre Noir de Saumur. Her partner in an instructor there.

 

[YasandCrystal]

He has a problem with his Si in the past and is still a little weaker on one side. Thats one of the things we are going to be working on building more muscle at his haunch.

My WB has chronic SI dysfunction and I am using an EMS unit on the muscles at the sacrum. It's a hand held electrical stimulation unit (battery run) with rubber pads/electrodes and it pulses the muscles wherever you place the pads - rather like the ones you get for helping sculpt abs in humans except it has all sorts of variable settings on it. My physio used one on Tim and I purchased one - they are inexpensive, but good. Maybe useful for Armas.

 

[Armas]

My WB has chronic SI dysfunction and I am using an EMS unit on the muscles at the sacrum. It's a hand held electrical stimulation unit (battery run) with rubber pads/electrodes and it pulses the muscles wherever you place the pads - rather like the ones you get for helping sculpt abs in humans except it has all sorts of variable settings on it. My physio used one on Tim and I purchased one - they are inexpensive, but good. Maybe useful for Armas.

Thank you for the tip, he had two Cortisone injections in to his SI a few months back which seems to have sorted the issue out.

 

[milliepops]

Looking good the stretching on the lunge is looking better and better, more willing and confident each time. even when he shortens a bit he's not coming back anywhere near as much. She's very skilled with the long reins I'd just end up with knitting

 

[Mongoose11]

Why does she continue to flap at him when it is clear that he requires a much more subtle aid (broken record)?

She also has a LOT of tension in the reins and he drags her forward sometimes, how will this encourage him to accept a contact?

When she does very little he looks much happier, but yes that SI issue can still be very clearly seen in the walk. I have an eye for it as my mare's hind is exactly the same in walk. No hint of it in trot/canter.

 

[Armas]

Why does she continue to flap at him when it is clear that he requires a much more subtle aid (broken record)?

She also has a LOT of tension in the reins and he drags her forward sometimes, how will this encourage him to accept a contact?

When she does very little he looks much happier, but yes that SI issue can still be very clearly seen in the walk. I have an eye for it as my mare's hind is exactly the same in walk. No hint of it in trot/canter.

She is attempting to maintain contact. How much long reining have you done have you ever long reined a very hot horse ?

Once more muscle is built up in his haunch and he engages his rear more that should start to strengthen his back end.

 

[Mongoose11]

Erm, you put the video up and I presume wanted feedback? Hot horse or not - I am commenting on her behaviour and his reaction. I didn't understand the use of the stronger aids when he reacts so strongly. Forgive me for asking.

I might be inclined what experience you have of long reining a hot horse Armas

 

[vikkiandmonica]

He's lovely, I really like him. I do agree with Billie1007 though, he's really relaxed and goes very well when she's lunging him with 2 reins, but does seem a lot tenser when he gets long reined and really shortens his neck and his stride, and the woman doesn't seem to allow much forward movement. I'm not too sure what she was trying to achieve, but I just saw quite a tense horse who was very short in the neck.

 

[DabDab]

Why does she continue to flap at him when it is clear that he requires a much more subtle aid (broken record)?

She also has a LOT of tension in the reins and he drags her forward sometimes, how will this encourage him to accept a contact?

When she does very little he looks much happier, but yes that SI issue can still be very clearly seen in the walk. I have an eye for it as my mare's hind is exactly the same in walk. No hint of it in trot/canter.

I presume you mean when she is behind him? Yes that's sort of what I was getting at when I said she was a long way back from him - it's very hard to control the movement in trot from that far away. Maybe she has a particular method or is more subtle than the horse is making her look though - not sure from the video

 

[goldenmint]

I'm sorry but I think it is an awful bit of long lining.

I am sure there are much better educated people at long lining than me so by all means ignore everything I am saying but I really don't like the way she positions herself behind the horse, I don't like the way she doesn't seem to follow through when she turns him and I really don't like how she keeps flapping the lunge line at him. I don't understand why she is doing this? This horse is going foward it doesn't seem to be doing anything that requires her to flap the lunge line at him.

The reasons in laymens terms as I understand to gently flap the line at a horse when long lining to get the horse more foward, to stop a horse falling out or in certain cases to get attention from a horse that is ignoring you behind him or to drive a horse foward who trys to run backwards. Your horse doesn't seem to be doing any of this. He doesn't need to be pushed foward in such an agressive way when a gentle click/use of voice would have achieved the same thing. All this flapping with the lines just confuse the horse and makes him very uncomfortable. It seems to be gentle, quiet, steady but certain is the key to this horse and I just don't think this trainer thinks the same way.

Just my opinion tho so if it works for the trainer and you then great.

 

[milliepops]

With regard to the flapping of the reins to send him on, I think the thing with Armas is that there is a difference between a horse that is running through the bridle (even without necessarily pulling on the reins) and a horse that is really truly forward in a through & accepting way. There are some moments on the last few videos when he is becoming truly forward and I can imagine he's giving her a lovely feel in those times, whereas at other times he probably feels like he's not really letting her 'in' yet.

I would imagine (lots of speculation here, we can't hear what she's saying nor know what she's thinking) that she's experimenting with increasing the pressure she puts on him to engage and become forward rather than rush away from an aid. I agree that sometimes it's not pretty but when there's an ingrained problem like this it is going to be ugly at times until the penny drops. We also can't *feel* what he is giving back to her, it's sometimes hard to assess feel from video footage.

I posted a video of my own horse at my last indoor show asking for tips on maintaining that free, forward feel when going from an outdoor warm up to indoor arena. Other posters couldn't tell that my horse had gone a bit backward on me, so it clearly didn't look as bad as it felt. Just a little example from my own experience of how video is deceptive

Anyway, what is nice is that after challenging him a little she is allowing him stretch breaks and releases when he responds in a positive way.

Just IMHO on a few points Billie:

Erm, you put the video up and I presume wanted feedback?

Actually, I'm not sure whether this is right or not I'm enjoying looking at these videos from an interest point of view but I'm aware I post my opinion on them when it hasn't been solicited in the OP There's an assumption on this forum that people want CC all the time I know I do it too, I'm not pointing the finger, just something that occurred to me

And...

I might be inclined what experience you have of long reining a hot horse Armas

In this case it's not really relevant though, as he has employed a trainer to do it for him Can we all play nicely? These threads are fascinating and I for one would be really sad if they descent into sniping

 

[milliepops]

Oh my god, here I am again. Am now obsessed with this horse! Have now sat down long enough to watch the full video. OP, I have to say I don't think you edited it together in the most helpful (to yourself) way!! I can now totally see why she is so far behind him in the long reining, because she can easily revert to lunging without having to wait to lengthen reins. Immediately on him beginning to give and accept she is putting him back on the big circle, for a forward stretchy trot. Lovely!

The flapping is because he is being a bit idle . He's not stressed, he frequently drops back into walk quite calmly when he's asked to collect a little, so needs to be reminded to keep going, engage and pull into the rein.

I think this is some of the best work I've seen from the horse. about 18 mins 20 she makes exactly the arm gesture I'm thinking to myself, that he is reaching forward and round and out. Honestly I'm delighted for you. My french is rubbish, I'd love to know what else they are saying.

 

[Mongoose11]

Sorry MP - I was just replying in terms of Armas questioning my own experience in long lining a hot horse. I didn't think it was relevant and sought to ask him the same question not sniping, merely trying to point out that his inexperience with hot horses is probably the same as my own. Difference is I went for a Cob as they are what I know

 

[milliepops]

Fair enough I'm loving seeing the progress and want him to keep posting videos, that's all

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

James is you're on Facebook friend Craig Stevens. He only does dressage and gives clinics. His posts are brilliant. He knows what he's doing and talks about horses developing beyond the only words people can string together, build muscle. This is a dressage guy so he's not a fluffy bunny who doesn't believe in working horses. Some of it may sense with Armas. Maybe not.

Terri

 

[Caledonia]

I see a panicky horse who doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing.

It's entirely unnecessary to long rein directly onto the bit, especially when she is inept enough to have the outside rein jammed under the saddle pad at the start, essentially 'fixing' the head shorter and shorter.

Long reining is a powerful way to train a horse on the ground, but it has to be done correctly and sympathetically.

I have only watched up to three minutes, when she started to flap the reins at him and worry him, and then had to stop watching.

I feel so sorry for this horse. He tries so hard, and is still confused.

 

[Armas]

Erm, you put the video up and I presume wanted feedback? Hot horse or not - I am commenting on her behaviour and his reaction. I didn't understand the use of the stronger aids when he reacts so strongly. Forgive me for asking.

I might be inclined what experience you have of long reining a hot horse Armas

You are forgiven Asked the question as to your experience because you were raising certain questions.

James is you're on Facebook friend Craig Stevens. He only does dressage and gives clinics. His posts are brilliant. He knows what he's doing and talks about horses developing beyond the only words people can string together, build muscle. This is a dressage guy so he's not a fluffy bunny who doesn't believe in working horses. Some of it may sense with Armas. Maybe not.

Terri

Ill have a look thanks

I see a panicky horse who doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing.

It's entirely unnecessary to long rein directly onto the bit, especially when she is inept enough to have the outside rein jammed under the saddle pad at the start, essentially 'fixing' the head shorter and shorter.

Long reining is a powerful way to train a horse on the ground, but it has to be done correctly and sympathetically.

I have only watched up to three minutes, when she started to flap the reins at him and worry him, and then had to stop watching.

I feel so sorry for this horse. He tries so hard, and is still confused.

Calling some one inept is just rude given you only watched three minutes. As I said in the op this is the first time he has been long reined thus is understandably confused at times.

Milliepops it would seem that you were with us !!! As your explanation and logic was spot on. Much more eloquent response than I would have made.

To days session is another progressive step with Armas really starting to listen. I will upload it in a few hrs.

 

[milliepops]

I have only watched up to three minutes, when she started to flap the reins at him and worry him, and then had to stop watching.

This is a bit the problem though, the short version is not really that representative of the whole session. If you watch the first 3 minutes of the full video you will not see ineptitude and you will see a horse that is relaxing and understanding what the trainer is asking of him. And when you see him alternating between short sections of long reining and longer sections of lunging, you can see he's really not worried, he's just working it out.

I've got nothing invested in this trainer btw but I do think you need to take her at face value, ignore her trainer and watch the full thing.

Out of interest, how would you approach a horse that sucks back and doesn't really go forward? I think she's been pretty good at unravelling the problem so far without upsetting him *or* pussyfooting around and ignoring the issue. But that's what is so interesting about these threads, as we can discuss different ways of handling the same thing

[while accepting the OP has chosen this trainer ]

 

[Caledonia]

This is a bit the problem though, the short version is not really that representative of the whole session. If you watch the first 3 minutes of the full video you will not see ineptitude and you will see a horse that is relaxing and understanding what the trainer is asking of him. And when you see him alternating between short sections of long reining and longer sections of lunging, you can see he's really not worried, he's just working it out.

I've got nothing invested in this trainer btw but I do think you need to take her at face value, ignore her trainer and watch the full thing.

I'm not on the FB page so cannot see the whole video.

What I do see is someone long reining badly when both working on a circle and driving.

Out of interest, how would you approach a horse that sucks back and doesn't really go forward? I think she's been pretty good at unravelling the problem so far without upsetting him *or* pussyfooting around and ignoring the issue. But that's what is so interesting about these threads, as we can discuss different ways of handling the same thing

[while accepting the OP has chosen this trainer ]

I always put the reins onto a lunge/trainingcavasson, leaving the mouth untouched. When they have learned the basics of being on long reins and I have exact vocal transitions, I will (re)educate a contact by putting the reins on the bit.

This horse is worried about the bit, he is in false carriage and he is very tight.

 

[milliepops]

I'm not on the FB page either but post #5 has the link to the full video:

I am really pleased. If your interested the whole session is here. I enjoy watching the training.

I always put the reins onto a lunge/trainingcavasson, leaving the mouth untouched. When they have learned the basics of being on long reins and I have exact vocal transitions, I will (re)educate a contact by putting the reins on the bit.

This horse is worried about the bit, he is in false carriage and he is very tight.

I don't disagree that at times he is tight. That is where he tends to be from habit but he really is learning to reach out. And very quickly, I think this is only the first week that she's been working him, am I right OP? Every time she puts him back on the lunge circle he reaches forward and down.

As far as leaving the mouth untouched goes, I personally don't think that would help in this case. There are other videos where a different rider does pretty much that, with loose baggy reins, and with nothing to work the horse into, he stays curled up with a short neck, and when he gets tired, snatches at the rein instead of becoming soft and relaxed. I think she's doing a reasonable job of showing him that it's nothing to fear.

 

[Caledonia]

I'm not on the FB page either but post #5 has the link to the full video:




I don't disagree that at times he is tight. That is where he tends to be from habit but he really is learning to reach out. And very quickly, I think this is only the first week that she's been working him, am I right OP? Every time she puts him back on the lunge circle he reaches forward and down.

As far as leaving the mouth untouched goes, I personally don't think that would help in this case. There are other videos where a different rider does pretty much that, with loose baggy reins, and with nothing to work the horse into, he stays curled up with a short neck, and when he gets tired, snatches at the rein instead of becoming soft and relaxed. I think she's doing a reasonable job of showing him that it's nothing to fear.

But you can't compare riding and long reining?

ETA - loose reins whilst being ridden on their own do nothing, but that is not what I suggested?

If he is on two reins, he is being long reined. He is not being lunged, even if he's on a circle.

And I disagree with you, I'm afraid. This horse needs to trust in the handler to go forward and down. And nothing that is being done in that video will engender that trust.

 

[DabDab]

Oh my god, here I am again. Am now obsessed with this horse! Have now sat down long enough to watch the full video. OP, I have to say I don't think you edited it together in the most helpful (to yourself) way!! I can now totally see why she is so far behind him in the long reining, because she can easily revert to lunging without having to wait to lengthen reins. Immediately on him beginning to give and accept she is putting him back on the big circle, for a forward stretchy trot. Lovely!

I think you can see from the edited version that she is that far away because she is switching between lunging and following, but that then leaves her a lot of line to deal with when she is trying to do a little lateral work with him (which is the rein flapping she is doing to the poster who mentioned it - you'll notice she is generally using one rein on his side at a time). When the trainer has him in walk and is closer behind him she is getting some lovely lateral work out of him.

 

[milliepops]

But you can't compare riding and long reining?

If he is on two reins, he is being long reined. He is not being lunged, even if he's on a circle.

And I disagree with you, I'm afraid. This horse needs to trust in the handler to go forward and down. And nothing that is being done in that video will engender that trust.

OK, consider my wrists slapped. I'm using the term lunge as short hand for "long reining on a circle", which I would have had to type several times above Sorry, I'm being lazy.

We'll have to agree to disagree then I do think he is trusting her because from the first ridden video a few days ago, to this point, he is a different horse IMHO

I have to admit, call me what you will but I've never seen a horse like this long reined off a cavesson with no contact to the bit at all. Do you have to educate them to respond to the different pressure first? I'm just thinking if I did that with mine, I think she would bog off with me sprinting along behind.

I wonder what the brief was for this trainer though, as that sounds like a re-breaking process rather than schooling on a horse (that already made a lot of progress with the last trainer). Perhaps she would have done something different if she'd been asked to start him again.

 

[Caledonia]

I have to admit, call me what you will but I've never seen a horse like this long reined off a cavesson with no contact to the bit at all. Do you have to educate them to respond to the different pressure first? I'm just thinking if I did that with mine, I think she would bog off with me sprinting along behind.

I wonder what the brief was for this trainer though, as that sounds like a re-breaking process rather than schooling on a horse (that already made a lot of progress with the last trainer). Perhaps she would have done something different if she'd been asked to start him again.

I break everything from Shires to TBs to ponies on long reins, so they don't bog off if you prepare correctly.

Unless you class long-reining as re-breaking, then why should long reining from a cavasson be different to long reining from a bit? Given this horse clearly has major contact issues, should the priority not be to get his body working comfortably and forward, and then re-educate his mouth?

 

[DabDab]

OK, consider my wrists slapped. I'm using the term lunge as short hand for "long reining on a circle", which I would have had to type several times above Sorry, I'm being lazy.

I've been doing that too - I'm sure everyone knows what is meant though.

I agree with you that the horse looks much better than in the first video.

Interestingly enough I was taught to long rein off a cavesson first too, and if I long rein I always do it off a cavesson these days simply because my hands are nowhere near as subtle on the end of a pair of long reins as they are on the end of a pair of riding reins. I have seen people who are excellent long reiners and they do a wonderful job with the reins on the bit, but because I am a much better rider than long reiner, for me it causes more problems than it solves.

PS I think 'long reiner' is probably a made u term but I'm running with it

 

[milliepops]

Unless you class long-reining as re-breaking, then why should long reining from a cavasson be different to long reining from a bit? Given this horse clearly has major contact issues, should the priority not be to get his body working comfortably and forward, and then re-educate his mouth?

Well, this comes back to my other question about the brief given to the trainer. If she was asked to school him on from where he was, then I think she's made a lot of progress in terms of both re-educating his mouth and getting his body working forward comfortably. It's early days, the first video was posted on Sunday.

It would be re-breaking to my mind, to start again from scratch with no contact to the bit, and then build up to it again. It looks (so far) that he is learning well enough with the methods she is using. There's more than one way to skin a cat, & all that.

I agree with you that the horse looks much better than in the first video.

Well I was beginning to wonder whether I was completely mad for a while!

Anyway, I MUST leave now, this is not how I was supposed to be spending my day!