Spotherisk
Well-Known Member
This is how I feel when I’ve seen Kate Sandel teach, and the in hand lessons she gave me and my horse were game changers.
Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.
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This is how I feel when I’ve seen Kate Sandel teach, and the in hand lessons she gave me and my horse were game changers.
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
Just catching up on this thread and now I really am wondering how long barrel racing horses tend to last. It's impressive what they do but the thought of putting that kind of pressure on my own horse's joints appalls me! I wonder how well they cope with it. Off to Google....
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
IMO, it's a sport that offers no benefit to the horse. Maybe they get some cardio out of it, but that's about it. To me, it's just not constructive. Some use some pretty serious hardware/bitting on their bridles too.
I just have no desire to yank my horse around tight turns, do abrupt starts and stops, then whip him with my reins all the way to the finish line.
I mean, some people have no desire for dressage, or whatever it is I am doing with my horse either. It's just that IME barrel racers are very out of touch with many things horse.
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
Me?Edit: not worth engaging with that poster
lme
Well-Known Member
@Ratface my first trainer (an eccentric Scotsman) used to engage in heated debates with Sylvia Loch over what appeared to be tiny differences in approach. Current competition dressage is so far removed from what he taught me that it seems like a completely different discipline.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
[wipes sweat off brow]
eahotson
Well-Known Member
An excellent article.I found this - a piece by a journalist, writing in the ’i’ newspaper who doesn’t claim to know anything about horses / horse sport, but has eyes and knows what looks and smells right and what doesn‘t. It’s a couple of years old but that’s not to say there won’t be a lot more of this to come, especially while what some people do with horses is getting more unpleasant...
If you don’t like following links he’s basically saying top horses are kept in cages, never allowed to express natural behaviour (no, passage from E to H does not count!), only leave their cage (sorry, stable) to be schooled and are air freighted around the world….all in the lap of a human’s idea of luxury, but horses would probably choose to be bucking and squealing across an open moor…(that last bit is my opinion, not the journalist)
Equestrian sports encourage animal cruelty - they should be banned from the Olympics
In my experience, the most distressed horses are always those who come from the horse racing industryinews.co.uk
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
It's very tabloidy - characterising poor riding as 'attacks', and does anyone actually use shock collars on horses?
Of course awful things do happen to horses but I don't think that sort of sensationalist journalism helps
Of course awful things do happen to horses but I don't think that sort of sensationalist journalism helps
eahotson
Well-Known Member
It might be slightly sensationalized but the basic points are well made and I have seen things that look more like attacks than merely poor riding.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
Is it?
This is the context
I think that's fair use of the word if you're an outsider looking in, which presumably the journalist is. What else should we call it? A particularly harsh training session?
stormox
Well-Known Member
Yes apparantly. I have seen a video by one of these 'liberty' people using a shock collar, I will see if I.can find it.....It wasn't in UK...
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
I wonder if they have seen cribbing collars online and got them confused? There is one, the Barclay Collar, that gives the horse a static shock when they crib…
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I haven't watched it.It sounds horrendous.I will accept that maybe Charlotte didn't realize about the tongue but the judges must have done.Why didn't they stop the test? A few years ago, after international showjumping bought in the maximum three blows from the whip a show jumper, at an international event and on camera beat his horse into a fence using the whip at each stride and far exceeding the three uses.Nothing was said at the time but there was a public outcry and not only was the rider censored but so were the judges who failed to stop it.Perhaps something like that needs to happen here.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Dear Lord.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
All we need is some perceptive five year old at a show to say in a loud voice "Mummy why has that horse got a big blue tongue?" to wake people up.
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
There was the Irish showjumper at Tokyo that had the EIPH episode that was allowed to finish the course because the blood wasn’t originated from the mouth or flanks it didn’t breach any rules! I’m hoping that has now changed but knowing the FÉI, it probably hasn’t 
Regardless, you would think that someone might have pulled the horse up giving the potential impact on horse welfare , not to mention the impact on social license.
Edited - In the interest of clarity, they actually classed it as “bilateral epistaxis“ rather than EIPH in this case but either way, it is not a good look for horse sport that the horse was allowed to continue their round.
I do think stewarding needs a complete overhaul, from horses who are allowed to continue on XC tired (although this has been improving lately) to blue tongues on dressage horses.
Regardless, you would think that someone might have pulled the horse up giving the potential impact on horse welfare , not to mention the impact on social license.Edited - In the interest of clarity, they actually classed it as “bilateral epistaxis“ rather than EIPH in this case but either way, it is not a good look for horse sport that the horse was allowed to continue their round.
I do think stewarding needs a complete overhaul, from horses who are allowed to continue on XC tired (although this has been improving lately) to blue tongues on dressage horses.
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abb123
Well-Known Member
Just to point out that Carl (and others mentioned on this thread) are very much involved with this horse and with Lottie. This isn't an isolated rogue rider.
For what its worth I don't think she is riding purposefully to achieve this way of going. I think she is doing the best she can to get good scores on an extremely hot horse rather than it being an intentional training approach like rollkur.
As others have said, the main problem here is the high scores achieved, over marking of some moves (the piaffe for example is very weak), and not penalising the clear lack of harmony and correctness of the horse. If this was penalised then more effort would be put into ensuring that a horse is mentally and physically capable of performing at this level - both of which are lacking for Everdale in my opinion. It would also mean that temperament was considered a larger factor when deciding on breeding strategies.
It is very disappointing to see and not a combination that I am proud of.
For what its worth I don't think she is riding purposefully to achieve this way of going. I think she is doing the best she can to get good scores on an extremely hot horse rather than it being an intentional training approach like rollkur.
As others have said, the main problem here is the high scores achieved, over marking of some moves (the piaffe for example is very weak), and not penalising the clear lack of harmony and correctness of the horse. If this was penalised then more effort would be put into ensuring that a horse is mentally and physically capable of performing at this level - both of which are lacking for Everdale in my opinion. It would also mean that temperament was considered a larger factor when deciding on breeding strategies.
It is very disappointing to see and not a combination that I am proud of.
stangs
Well-Known Member
If you want the sport to improve, the answer is not to condemn it all as cruel but to actively laud even small improvements (spurs being made optional, riders like Becky Moody and Lewis Carrier, etc). Also, as much as I don’t enjoy Lottie Fry’s riding, and as much as I do think there needs to be a change in the weighting of marks to prioritise harmony over accuracy, if you want to see where the rot is in a sport, you follow the money, and the money isn’t with the riding and the judging. Who do you think makes more money every year - Lottie Fry or the owners of Van Olst?
Regardless, I am disappointed to see the attitudes surrounding the inews article because it is such blatant, if carefully worded, propaganda. It is a beautiful example of extremist Animal Rights Activism’s MO, wherein the author mixes some fact with heavy sensalisationism and emotive language to encourage people to shun everything to do with the subject matter and to extrapolate beyond what is actually said.
Note that article is set up by first introducing one of the most emotive and uncontroversial topics - wild animals in circuses - so that your perception of the topic is already biased by the time you start reading about dressage.
I’m not going to advocate for or against flying horses, but do keep in mind that horses are given access to forage throughout the journey and are kept in close proximity to conspecifics - these are two very natural behaviours that make any experience easier for a horse to manage. Do horses enjoy flights? I don’t know. But I find it hard to imagine that animals which have been habitualised to transport find flying ‘traumatic’. Not stressful at times but ‘traumatic’.
Equines deaths on planes are a tragedy, and one would hope they involve investigation afterwards to figure out how the risks can be further mitigated in future. Deaths are also incredibly uncommon. The citation on horse deaths in planes relate to the transportation of horses for meat between Canada and Japan (a country with notoriously poor welfare legislation) - i.e., this is nothing to do with equestrian sport. The horse meat industry does indeed have serious issues that need addressing and improving, but it also has little to do with equestrian sport. How horses for meat are treated on flights is a world away from how sport horses (whose welfare is of high priority, if for no other reason than ensuring good performance and financial gain) are treated. The referencing of these deaths in criticism of dressage is therefore highly manipulative.
Unsurprisingly, the author doesn’t mention any statistics.
b) As much as I agree with the point that spurs and noseband can cause harm - which is why I’m very pleased that spurs are now optional, and hopefully nosebands will follow suit - the citation here is to horseracingsense.com , an article which also doesn’t make clear where exactly they’re getting their information from, what studies they’re citing.
Again, I do think there are many things in dressage and other equestrian sport that need to change. I am not happy with many aspects of competitive dressage. But critical thinking does not just mean criticising the ‘opposition’; it should mean going into any discussion regarding animal welfare with nuance and understanding and actual research.
Regardless, I am disappointed to see the attitudes surrounding the inews article because it is such blatant, if carefully worded, propaganda. It is a beautiful example of extremist Animal Rights Activism’s MO, wherein the author mixes some fact with heavy sensalisationism and emotive language to encourage people to shun everything to do with the subject matter and to extrapolate beyond what is actually said.
Fact check: ‘Animals’ weren’t banned from circuses; ‘wild animals’ were, and because of consistent welfare failings beyond just the journey aspect.
Note that article is set up by first introducing one of the most emotive and uncontroversial topics - wild animals in circuses - so that your perception of the topic is already biased by the time you start reading about dressage.
Again, no one is hiding information regarding the flying of horses - there’s been plenty of publicity about it, news videos and the like - but, by pretending that this has been the case, the author is manipulating the reader into thinking that the big bosses don’t want you knowing about it, therefore it must be cruel. (At this point in the article, I thought he’d mention the genuine environmental issue with flying horses, but no, that would be too sensible.)
I mean where to begin with this? “A child could tell you…”; “clearly supposed to” — so, after structuring the article in a way to bias the reader, the author now appeals to his and your intuition as being the reliable source of information. In reality, there’s no real, reliable evidence for plane journeys being ‘traumatising’, but the “unnatural = cruel” rhetoric is too easy a tactic to use (and a favourite of the PETA “it’s better for an animal to be euthanised than found a home” approach). Yes, some unnatural things can be cruel. However, vaccinations aren’t natural, neither is in-hand work, being protected from predators, carrot stretches, or the many other things advised as good for a horse.
I’m not going to advocate for or against flying horses, but do keep in mind that horses are given access to forage throughout the journey and are kept in close proximity to conspecifics - these are two very natural behaviours that make any experience easier for a horse to manage. Do horses enjoy flights? I don’t know. But I find it hard to imagine that animals which have been habitualised to transport find flying ‘traumatic’. Not stressful at times but ‘traumatic’.
Equines deaths on planes are a tragedy, and one would hope they involve investigation afterwards to figure out how the risks can be further mitigated in future. Deaths are also incredibly uncommon. The citation on horse deaths in planes relate to the transportation of horses for meat between Canada and Japan (a country with notoriously poor welfare legislation) - i.e., this is nothing to do with equestrian sport. The horse meat industry does indeed have serious issues that need addressing and improving, but it also has little to do with equestrian sport. How horses for meat are treated on flights is a world away from how sport horses (whose welfare is of high priority, if for no other reason than ensuring good performance and financial gain) are treated. The referencing of these deaths in criticism of dressage is therefore highly manipulative.
Unsurprisingly, the author doesn’t mention any statistics.
“Admitted” implying that the coach in question (looks to be Sylvia Loch from the citation) was guilty as well. Again, this is how extremist AR propaganda works; there are no good guys, there is no one in a ‘bad’ industry who is trying to help the animals or change things. Everything is treated as guilty and villified by association.
a) Since when were ‘shock collars’ used in equestrian sport?
b) As much as I agree with the point that spurs and noseband can cause harm - which is why I’m very pleased that spurs are now optional, and hopefully nosebands will follow suit - the citation here is to horseracingsense.com , an article which also doesn’t make clear where exactly they’re getting their information from, what studies they’re citing.
No sh*t that ex-racers at a rescue are very distressed. If they had come from a reputable trainer who cared about preparing horses for their future careers and rehoming them responsbily, they wouldn’t have ended up at a rescue in the first place. (Does this mean that racing doesn’t have issues? Not at all; there's a lot of working that needs to be done there. But it’s just interesting to note how often people use rescue anecdotes without noting the inherent bias.)
Nice conclusion. Makes it very clear that the interest isn’t truly in animal welfare, but rather in banning anything animal-related. (Note the overgeneralisation - it’s not dressage, the subject of the article, leaving the ‘stain’ on the Olympics but all ‘equestrian events’, despite the article only having discussed dressage.) Anyone who truly cares about animals ought to be cheering on changes in animal welfare guidelines, because every little helps improve welfare standards and animals’ lives.
Again, I do think there are many things in dressage and other equestrian sport that need to change. I am not happy with many aspects of competitive dressage. But critical thinking does not just mean criticising the ‘opposition’; it should mean going into any discussion regarding animal welfare with nuance and understanding and actual research.
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equinerebel
Well-Known Member
I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it, I actually don’t think it matters what we think of articles like that. It’s the non horsey public the ICO will ultimately listen to, as they did with the modern pentathlon. Equestrian sports need to be super aware of what is being said about them outside of their own bubble and react accordingly. We can argue all day about ethics, tension and what trainers do what, but we’re further damaging the sport if we’re not also aware that equestrian sports exist in the olympics because the public have not turned against them.
The test this thread is about is not doing that. I know some posters don’t put as much weight on public opinion as I do, and maybe those posters are right. But I care about the future of equestrian sports and that’s why I post on these topics.
The test this thread is about is not doing that. I know some posters don’t put as much weight on public opinion as I do, and maybe those posters are right. But I care about the future of equestrian sports and that’s why I post on these topics.
YourValentine
Well-Known Member
Agree, and I do wonder if the big bits and whipping with the reins etc are "tradition" and misguided showmanship?
I've ridden some really good barrel horses and they know that floor plan off by heart, all you have to do is keep your feet out of the way and not upset their balance. You definitely don't need a big bit or spurs. A kick down the final straight might encourage them not too back off the end too soon but the rest isn't needed.
Tested it once with my mums mare. She rode her round, then a few horses later led her to the start, stood next to her and when the bell went shouted Go! And she ran a full second faster with out mum
We weren't entirely sure she'd do them solo, it was just a fun experiment at a local show.
This wasn't a horse drilled in barrels we did it a 3-4 times a year for fun. She was just bloody smart, fast and opionated.
No idea on the lifespan of the top competitive American horses. But I don't think we should judge the strain as any worse than a fast jump off with tight turns or mounted games.
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
Or polo
Fellewell
Well-Known Member
He states: race horses show a unique anxiety and lack of trust that suggest they have been cruelly treated. Based on what? Temperament? No distinction is made over whether they came direct from a trainer or as so often used to happen, landed in a totally unsuitable home with someone who had overestimated their abilities. He doesn't allow for the fact that some of these horses ended up in the wrong home and received poor care, poor handling and very poor riding. Years ago I used to see them all the time standing in half an acre of mud wondering when their lass/lad was going to come back for them. It was pitiful. He's made no attempt to research into how racing has made strides to prevent this happening. Many ex-racers have wonderful second careers.
This type of speculation is on a par with I wonder what they do at home and so much of the anecdotal claptrap that's accepted as fact. He needs to go and get some formal training and then come back and tell us how it's done.
This type of speculation is on a par with I wonder what they do at home and so much of the anecdotal claptrap that's accepted as fact. He needs to go and get some formal training and then come back and tell us how it's done.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Since when was grazing in fields free from predation natural for a horse it’s not.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Why shouldn't "I wonder what they do at home" be being questioned
Look what's come out about a certain Danish individual. I bet it's not all sunshine and roses behind the scenes
Look what's come out about a certain Danish individual. I bet it's not all sunshine and roses behind the scenes
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I have my horses stabled at night atm they came in 10 of January their relief was obvious it’s extremely wet this year the idea that stabling is bad is ludicrous.
Fellewell
Well-Known Member
Investigative journalism is one thing and to be applauded when it happens. What this guy is churning out is just clickbait
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I've been musing on the "it's just tension, there's nothing wrong with a bit of tension is not hurting the horse", argument.
I watch that video and I see a horse chomping and chomping and chomping at the bit who only stops chomping so as not to bite his own tongue, which is at that point flailing out of the side of his mouth. I see the test end and the rider drop the reins and the horse immediately close his mouth and relax his jaw.
The conclusion I draw from that is that the horse was being caused a physical discomfort from what he was being asked to do, because the environment doesn't change when the rider drops the reins. But let's assume for a moment that it's mental tension. No horse which is not in mental torment, surely, would continuously chomp its mouth like that for an uninterrupted 8 minutes? I would expect any horse showing that much agitation to be well on the way to developing ulcers if it's not on a preventative dose of acid suppression.
Just tension or actual physical discomfort - do we have the right to do that to living animals simply for our pleasure?
I watch that video and I see a horse chomping and chomping and chomping at the bit who only stops chomping so as not to bite his own tongue, which is at that point flailing out of the side of his mouth. I see the test end and the rider drop the reins and the horse immediately close his mouth and relax his jaw.
The conclusion I draw from that is that the horse was being caused a physical discomfort from what he was being asked to do, because the environment doesn't change when the rider drops the reins. But let's assume for a moment that it's mental tension. No horse which is not in mental torment, surely, would continuously chomp its mouth like that for an uninterrupted 8 minutes? I would expect any horse showing that much agitation to be well on the way to developing ulcers if it's not on a preventative dose of acid suppression.
Just tension or actual physical discomfort - do we have the right to do that to living animals simply for our pleasure?
abb123
Well-Known Member
Muscle tension to enable the horse to perform the movements is fine and why they need to be physically strong enough and be conformationally suited to the job. Stress tension from physical/mental discomfort/pressure is not fine.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
The fact that he is outside the bubble if you like is helpful.He doesn't look and think "OH thats so and so,he/she has ridden at the Olympics so it must be good",They just think it is cruel and they walk.Pammy Hutton said this a few years ago and better than me.
I am old and can remember the lion tamer and elephants taught to tricks.They were usually if not always bred in captivity and so were at leastt semi domesticated.If a circus tried to do the same thing now you would have every major news agency there,demonstrations everywhere and the RSPCA working on its prosecution case.
I saw a well known show jumper deal his horse a vicious blow at a show.If I hit my little dog like that she would scream and the audience would try and kill me.Horses don't scream though do they?
The thing is things are NOT changing or only superficially.Horse sport will be finished if there is not genuine and radical change and soon.