Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[Nudibranch]

I think this forum is pretty good at discussing overweight riders, etc, etc, etc. Facebook, Instagram and so on definitely not. That is where you see ignorance and abuse rewarded. I've been a member on here since 2007 and I'd say the majority tell it like it is (hence some of the flouncing).

 

[LEC]

The blue tongue thing is tricky. I used to be quite black and white about it but I do think lighting has a big part to play and we see it more indoors than outdoors. I am not condoning it btw I just think there are a few more variables to play.

Is tension pain? Is pain tension? I don’t know btw I think again it’s very mixed up with each other and my reading of the ethogram was it needed several elements to be involved.

Maybe the issue is judges give their opinion and that’s it they don’t have to justify them. There is no public feedback at the end of the test. I always find the YH classes interesting when put another rider on as they discuss what they are finding publicly and how they would view that.

I think there should be more audience scoring as actually they are never that far out from the judges and it would be interesting to compare more.

BTW my experience of judging at the lower grades is that it has significantly improved and rarely now across eventing or unaff or aff dressage at Elementary and below do I go that was an unjustified score or I do not agree.

I do think there are fundamental issues wrong with the sport and that starts with the young horse auctions and money. In reality we know those horses will never reach the top of the sport and we also know the wastage is high from those YH auctions. We should be breeding for GP but removing the elements of fragility. We don’t see the solid types like Valegro and Mistral Hojris anymore who are probably closer in type to the Iberians in finding the work easy. Can we have true collection with the movement and uphill which is being bred into them?

While the top of the sport has elements of undesirable, there is also elements of very good but we don’t call those out enough or praise. I have more friends than ever before getting to local level GP on very average horses because the modern horse finds the work easier and we are better at training for it. Medium doesn’t seem to be such a blocker now for most horses over changes. Medium and Adv Medium are achievable goals for most now with time and training.

 

[Goldenstar]

From golf to football to gymnastics people discuss results and decisions that’s what is being interested in the a sport means .
The days where the stars of a sport where admired untouchable individuals are over people have the right to an opinion.
Personally I did not like the tone of the first post I would not have expressed myself that way but it’s a question that got every right to be asked .
However thinking you could head of to Spain for some sort of flat work nirvana well it might make you feel better thinking that but it would not happen.

Moving on to somewhere else LF has done the fun bit of rising through the ranks she now is in a much less fun place the place where only winning is enough.
I do have sympathy for her I know nothing about her but I can see that that’s a stressful position to be in only winning is enough. I believe , I may be wrong, that she rides for a commercial company she’s under pressure to win I hope she can retain her bearings and love of the horse .

 

[j1ffy]

Having had time to ponder on this, get up to date on the thread and re-watch the test, I thought I'd weigh in with a few thoughts (I'll probably regret it later ).

The issue for me is the score, not the placing as the standard overall wasn't as high as other World Cup qualifiers (I watched all of Mechelen as I was unwell with a stomach bug while it was on!), it was certainly a lot lower than London. Like it or not LF and Everdale did two very accurate tests while a lot of others had issues.

Judging has improved, even before Gal took his break he wasn't scoring the highest marks (far from it) and the last few championships have rewarded more harmonious and lighter tests. Jessica B-W and Dalera are a pleasure to watch (though, shock horror, she didn't stand still in the halt in her win last week), Carl's influence is noticeable in this country and the Americans have always looked more classical to my eye and seem to be improving their scores. IW is still a puzzle to me, I really don't enjoy watching her but she scores whopping great marks. So perhaps we can be optimistic that judging is improving but still a long way to go?

Re: Everdale, he's a lot more relaxed in a test than he used to be, believe it or not, so clearly they are working to get better quality of work out of him. Personally I think he should receive considerably lower scores for the obvious tension, fixed frame, and balance - maybe it's me but he doesn't look particularly uphill or like he's taking weight behind as much as would be expected at that level. I had to watch again very closely to spot the tongue and it was hard to tell the colour with the foam and lighting but it did look blue, though the curb rein wasn't applying constant pressure.

Other than judging, I do wonder about the horses being bred for the top levels of dressage, particularly in the Netherlands. These incredibly hot and forward horses are very difficult to ride in a classical outline, Everdale looks like he constantly wants to run through the bridle which doesn't help the picture. As Cortez mentions the Iberian horses are generally ridden better (even by riders who don't ride classically on warmbloods), perhaps because it's easier to teach them to sit and wait? They simply won't tolerate a heavy handed contact.

Having said that I am still struggling to let go on my very hot and forward young PRE! But there are moments when it comes together and I can feel where we might end up. I can't imagine that happening with something like Everdale!!

Out of interest, which dressage riding forum users have we lost? I think the only advanced+ level riders we've had on here in recent years have all commented on this thread. I can't think of others we've 'lost' other than one eventer who switched to dressage but my memory may well be failing me!

 

[pistolpete]

My two pennies worth about the type of horses we see in dressage. The spidery long legged ones like Everdale just don’t look as nice as the Valegro build. Surely it should be pleasing to the eye?

 

[Goldenstar]

They're hypersensitive because they know that in the wild they'd be toast. It's as fundamental as that. It was a long ago we bred their legs to be so long that their tendons could no longer function fully, as "designed", and now we're breeding them to be so elastic to have lost some fundamental tendon and ligament attachment points eg in the base of the neck. These are seen as the horses that are easiest to train, because our training model is ALL WRONG. They can be noodled around, put into LDR or whatever you want to call it, and still throw out a spectacular if biomechanically harmful trot and canter.

These horses know they are vulnerable, and are then trained without being stabilised; we train for athleticism, elasticity, obedience, "suppleness" but never stability, so it never improves. I know this is not the way most of us have learned to see the horse, but my studies and experience in saddle fitting have led me to believe this.

I have owned one horse with extreme uphill conformation .
He taught me so much a horses core and it’s thoracic sling is absolutely key to developing the horse the issue is these horses can do stuff with it he just blew my mind half halt in a shoulder in and he would just piaffe try to get him in a stretched walk at first he just had no ability to go there .
I learnt so much from him.
I don’t agree they are nervous because they think something is going eat them I think the reactivity is bred into them it makes them for top riders extremely trainable .

 

[tristars]

I've thought rather hard about posting this, and in fact written it and deleted it a couple of times, but ...

We have lost a few dressage people off this forum, people who train and compete to a reasonably high standard, and the reasons given have been because they're sick of seeing "keyboard warriors" and people who've never ridden a GP test daring to speak out and say that the way modern dressage has gone is cruel, hideous to watch and against every aspect of horse welfare.

And that, there, is the root of the problem. If the people doing it can't see it, then the rest of us need to shout even louder, for the sake of the horse.

shout because horses cannot even talk!

 

[tristars]

european warmbloods are bred for a purpose, in the early days a lot of farmers would breed a few foals a year in places like holland,, its now turned into a megga production line, foals sales young horse blah, but not a lot of attention was paid to temperament, which facet has been acknowledged by quite a few authorities in their own systems of production

although there has always been big studs that breed particular breeds in europe

holstein horses can be super flight very shockingly nervous creatures i have rejected two i bought for breeding as youngsters, they were however the top breed at one point for winning comps so are heavily bred from anyway

trying to get the necessary animation and submission to run parallel for dressage comps , from such horses must be difficult

horses are flesh and blood but also we need to consider the nervous system, and all the other components

 

[clairebearfur1]

As title really, dont know if I missed a thread on this.
If this is a winning test I despair. Grand Prix FEI 6th leg at Mechelen.
Behind the vertical 90% of the time, blue lolling tongue, mouth grinding and snapping, incredible tension, pained expression on the horses face, this is unwatchable.
WHY are the judges rewarding this horror show??

So sad, poor horses

 

[sbloom]

I don’t agree they are nervous because they think something is going eat them I think the reactivity is bred into them it makes them for top riders extremely trainable .

We breed for elasticity and flash, we don't breed for mental sensitivity. The second follows the first imo. If we don't stabilise these horses, help them with posture, the thoracic sling as you mentioned, they are permanently in dysfunction being asked to work at the very highest level, their ability to express themselves removed (hands might be still, but they're not gentle, and double bridles and spurs do shut down the horse's opinion fairly easily, not saying they should of course!)...why would they not be overreactive?

So many horses showing extreme spookiness and sensitivity show much calmer attitudes when their bodies are in more sympathetic training and their lifestyles are more natural, whatever their breeding. Physical health, suitable natural environment, and work to help them regulate emotionally.

 

[equinerebel]

I just don’t call it a welfare issue. If we want to call tension a welfare issue then my 4yo who did his first ever walk and trot test the other day is also going to fall into this category as spent most of his test shouting to his friend.

I mean essentially, yes. If you want to be bare bones about it all, that does also fall into the same category. Tension is tension. The difference is the rider at the heart of this discussion is being generally referred to as among the best in the world. And no offence to you and your horse, but I’m assuming you're not.

If they’re going to be put on a pedestal and told that’s what we should all be aiming for, we have every right to question if that’s really what we want.

 

[reynold]

The breeding also has a lot to answer for in regard to soundness and longevity.

I have felt for a long time that top riders know that these modern dressage horses don't stay sound as long as they should and this influences the training to push them young before they break.

I also have issues with lack of soundness in regard to the hidden issue of repeated and often frequent joint injections to try and keep a basically lame horse sound.

IMO it's not just the riding, training or judging that needs to change it's the breeding. There was a good post on page 5 of this thread regarding the reduction in anchoring points for tendons/ligaments due to the breeding of long legs and flashier movement.

 

[sbloom]

We are doing harm to horses at a genetic level, it won't be that long before we're desperately trying to cross short legged drafts back into top sports lines, unless we keep accepting this level of prophylactic treatment, wastage and abuse. The industry is currently not incentivised to improve long term soundness as we have so many more ways to "treat" it now, and this covers breeding, management and training.

 

[SEL]

I mean essentially, yes. If you want to be bare bones about it all, that does also fall into the same category. Tension is tension. The difference is the rider at the heart of this discussion is being generally referred to as among the best in the world. And no offence to you and your horse, but I’m assuming you're not.

If they’re going to be put on a pedestal and told that’s what we should all be aiming for, we have every right to question if that’s really what we want.

And tension should be marked down - I certainly was steering round a test on a horse that felt like an unexploded bomb. Judge quite rightly told me it was accurately ridden but obviously tense. I agreed.

Lottie may well have deserved the win based on her accuracy and being streets ahead of the other competitors but it wasn't pleasant to watch.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

For me it’s a welfare issue in that the tension was not viewed negatively. She was getting 10s. Pinnacle of perfection? Really??

If she had scored badly, and then commented saying he was very tense and needed a lot of holding together, which is a pity but they are working on that at home, then we wouldn’t be having this debate.

 

[tristars]

cattle markets have extensive guidelines on animal welfare, how and when sticks etc should be used, makes you wonder what would happen if youpresented a cow with spur holes, a blue tongue, tension fear

i do not think it would be needed to use heavy horses blood to improve things breeding wise,

 

[j1ffy]

For me it’s a welfare issue in that the tension was not viewed negatively. She was getting 10s. Pinnacle of perfection? Really??

If she had scored badly, and then commented saying he was very tense and needed a lot of holding together, which is a pity but they are working on that at home, then we wouldn’t be having this debate.

Just for factual accuracy - she got one 10 for one technical movement from one judge, across the two tests at Mechelen. I don't think it was deserved personally.

Freestyle results: https://www.longinestiming.com/equestrian/2023/jumping-mechelen-mechelen/resultlist_D2.html (click on 'DETAILS' next to her results for the full test sheet)
GP: https://www.longinestiming.com/equestrian/2023/jumping-mechelen-mechelen/resultlist_D1.html

 

[NinjaPony]

For me it’s a welfare issue in that the tension was not viewed negatively. She was getting 10s. Pinnacle of perfection? Really??

If she had scored badly, and then commented saying he was very tense and needed a lot of holding together, which is a pity but they are working on that at home, then we wouldn’t be having this debate.

Completely agree. We’ve all gone up the centre line on a very tense horse, but I would expect the marks to reflect that. I got one of my worst scores at a national show because my normally relaxed pony froze on the arena, and quite right too. I have seen everdale in real life and thought that you couldn’t pay me to ride a horse like that, he looks like he is about to explode at any given moment. Conformation does play a part, with some of these Dutch horses having short tight necks and longer legs than a more square horse like Valegro.

 

[Fransurrey]

And “But the average viewer may just see pretty horse dancing”

Just wanted to throw in my OHs view who is actively not-horsey and doesn’t really get the want to do anything other than hacking. I’ve taken him along to a few dressage competitions at a very low level and he’s then done a google of dressage. “Is that what you’re aiming for? It looks awful.” So even to the untrained eye high level dressage doesn’t look good or pretty. He expanded that the horses look uncomfortable and forced and the movements unnatural. I reassured him there was absolutely no hope of me and the Spanish dragon even aiming for anything above novice, let alone the top tiers of dressage - but I don’t think I’d realised how absolutely awful it actually does look to the untrained eye.

I took my OH to Olympia a few years ago and I remember him saying after a few tests, 'that horse really wasn't happy!'. He's never even sat on a horse, but he was 100 % correct. I haven't been to Olympia (or whatever it's called) for about 12 years because I didn't like what I was seeing and the stands were becoming more 'boutiques', so not worth it anymore for me.

 

[splashgirl45]

For me it’s a welfare issue in that the tension was not viewed negatively. She was getting 10s. Pinnacle of perfection? Really??

If she had scored badly, and then commented saying he was very tense and needed a lot of holding together, which is a pity but they are working on that at home, then we wouldn’t be having this debate.

10 is excellent and not perfection, if it was perfection I doubt many would be used. It may be that they had given another horse a 9 on that movement and they felt Everdale was better so awarded a 10, who knows , I wouldn’t have scored any of her test that high but you need to watch the whole class to decide how she should be marked. I’ve done lots of writing at the higher levels and the judges job is really difficult and I wouldn’t want to do it, I’m not saying I’m happy with the way the judges are scoring the higher level tests as I feel that both Gareth and Carl show a much nicer, more accurate test but get less marks than the flashy tense horses

 

[Goldenstar]

We breed for elasticity and flash, we don't breed for mental sensitivity. The second follows the first imo. If we don't stabilise these horses, help them with posture, the thoracic sling as you mentioned, they are permanently in dysfunction being asked to work at the very highest level, their ability to express themselves removed (hands might be still, but they're not gentle, and double bridles and spurs do shut down the horse's opinion fairly easily, not saying they should of course!)...why would they not be overreactive?

So many horses showing extreme spookiness and sensitivity show much calmer attitudes when their bodies are in more sympathetic training and their lifestyles are more natural, whatever their breeding. Physical health, suitable natural environment, and work to help them regulate emotionally.

We do breed for reactivity trainability is in all the warm blood gradings we have in my life time changed the temperaments of warmbloods considerably.

 

[sbloom]

We do breed for reactivity trainability is in all the warm blood gradings we have in my life time changed the temperaments of warmbloods considerably.

Rather random thoughts to follow!

Trainability is defined by the way we train....and that has changed (I bet a trainable horse in the 1950s wasn't much different to a trainable horse in the 1700s), which in part changed because breeding had changed, it's all so interwoven.

I just think it comes as part and parcel of these dysfunctional horses and they all could be down regulated, whereas the elasticity can't be changed.

I don't think it's coincidence that as the form of horses changed we also lost the "dumblood" as people used to call them, we bred for athleticism, and because the horses can "cope" with the new training, we call them trainable.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

While there are amateurs or others out there with overweight horses, thin horses, starved horses, lame horses, or are overweight for their horse, these issues are called out and discussed on here and most people take concern with those issues too. So to claim that the forum is hypocritical (granted LEC did say "sometimes") is just a smack in the face to those that do care and do call those matters out. It also just illustrates why some don't call those matters out. You either get lambasted for being unkind, insensitive, uncouth, or have someone saying, "Yeah but what about xyz" as if you cannot call out matter x without calling out y and z.

I think there are quite a few of us that realize that our sh*t does stink. To the high heavens at times! There are some very conscious horse(wo)men on here, but I can agree that they might not be the majority.

Sure, efforts need to be made at the lower levels but it's crucial at the highest levels. Those are the people and horses on the big screen, in the media, representing the sport and being looked up to. I'm fine with calling out people at all levels from all walks of life, but I also think it's fair to be critical of the pros on the big screens at the upper levels.

Yes, you do get "armchair quarterbacks" but you do also get some legitimate points and concerns from knowledgeable people that shouldn't be dismissed. It's actually not a bad thing to have input from people/riders of varying backgrounds because sometimes you can become blind or suffer from tunnel vision and different perspectives can be eye opening.

I recognize the improvements that have been made in dressage, and appreciate some of the really pros out there as well as the positive rule changes. I just don't like when people spin it as people being unappreciative of the progress made in the sport just because they're discussing some negative aspects or areas that need improvement. Sure, we could have more positive threads, but even in this thread you'll find some positives or complimentary comments about the sport or certain horse/rider combos.

I don't agree with, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" perhaps because I've lived too much of my life in Germany I mean, if someone says something to me that isn't nice but is genuinely how they feel, I can appreciate that they are being upfront with me. If I don't like what they are saying, then I can disregard their statement. It's sort of on me as to how deep I let it get.

I just don't agree with pros being beyond reproach. One of the "cons" of being in the limelight is that you're out there. Everyone sees you. With the limelight comes criticisms, but also a fanbase. You'll always have your fans and critics, if you cannot handle that, then maybe don't put yourself out there.

I think that progress has been made in dressage, and some things are going in a good or better direction, but there's still a fair amount of room for improvement. If we stop discussing and wanting to improve, then that would be a real problem.

 

[ester]

Having had time to ponder on this, get up to date on the thread and re-watch the test, I thought I'd weigh in with a few thoughts (I'll probably regret it later ).

The issue for me is the score, not the placing as the standard overall wasn't as high as other World Cup qualifiers (I watched all of Mechelen as I was unwell with a stomach bug while it was on!), it was certainly a lot lower than London. Like it or not LF and Everdale did two very accurate tests while a lot of others had issues.

Judging has improved, even before Gal took his break he wasn't scoring the highest marks (far from it) and the last few championships have rewarded more harmonious and lighter tests. Jessica B-W and Dalera are a pleasure to watch (though, shock horror, she didn't stand still in the halt in her win last week), Carl's influence is noticeable in this country and the Americans have always looked more classical to my eye and seem to be improving their scores. IW is still a puzzle to me, I really don't enjoy watching her but she scores whopping great marks. So perhaps we can be optimistic that judging is improving but still a long way to go?

Re: Everdale, he's a lot more relaxed in a test than he used to be, believe it or not, so clearly they are working to get better quality of work out of him. Personally I think he should receive considerably lower scores for the obvious tension, fixed frame, and balance - maybe it's me but he doesn't look particularly uphill or like he's taking weight behind as much as would be expected at that level. I had to watch again very closely to spot the tongue and it was hard to tell the colour with the foam and lighting but it did look blue, though the curb rein wasn't applying constant pressure.

Other than judging, I do wonder about the horses being bred for the top levels of dressage, particularly in the Netherlands. These incredibly hot and forward horses are very difficult to ride in a classical outline, Everdale looks like he constantly wants to run through the bridle which doesn't help the picture. As Cortez mentions the Iberian horses are generally ridden better (even by riders who don't ride classically on warmbloods), perhaps because it's easier to teach them to sit and wait? They simply won't tolerate a heavy handed contact.

Having said that I am still struggling to let go on my very hot and forward young PRE! But there are moments when it comes together and I can feel where we might end up. I can't imagine that happening with something like Everdale!!

Out of interest, which dressage riding forum users have we lost? I think the only advanced+ level riders we've had on here in recent years have all commented on this thread. I can't think of others we've 'lost' other than one eventer who switched to dressage but my memory may well be failing me!

I’ve seen dalera mentioned a lot recently as the ‘good’ comparison but she is also busy mouthed. This isn’t to take anything away from her but I think it shows that it’s not very clear cut/what indicators are/there’s a lot of nuance depending on people’s interpretation. The same with tension as a concept I think, if there’s no tension the whole thing is going to fall apart (ask a hypermobile person ) but then that’s another ok/bad line that needs to be defined.

 

[Goldenstar]

A lot of these problems could be solved by marking lack of harmony more harshly this would more allow a balance between extravagance and the horse overall attitude to the work .
Harmony is all I am quoting Kottas there he said that at a clinic I have never forgotten it.
Because it true harmony between the horse and rider is so important without it you have nothing , nothing in the training ,nothing in the test nothing on a hack .

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses should be able to move their mouths why is a clamped totally still mouth better
Horses should be able to move their tails if they feel like it ,it’s what the horse is doing in the context of its work at that moment the judge needs to be looking at.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

In respect to tension, I am (zips flamesuit) ok with some level of tension. You do actually need some to perform certain maneuvers or acts of strength. Of course you also have positive vs negative tension. Is tension a welfare issue? At times, yes. Always? No. Being unconcerned or conscious of the level of tension? Yes, that can turn into a welfare issue.

 

[honetpot]

I was lucky enough to see a dressage demo with Reiner Klimke, I had been interested in dressage since the mid 70's and he was my hero, because he produced different types of horses. For those that do not know of him,

Reiner Klimke - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Its worth watching the clip.
His first guinea pig from a well known dressage yard, out to impress and over riding, his main comemt, 'kind hands' repeated a lot. I have also seen John Lasseter, Chris Bartle, Jennie Loriston-Clarke ride close up, the year I went to Goodwood, I think about late 80's you could walk up to rider warming up, and there was non of the glizz there is now.
The magic of all of these riders is they seemed to be doing nothing yet producing correct work, on often what would be called now non dressage horses. It all seems to have deteroiated in to a bad circus trick, in fact when I think about it circus animals are perhaps treated with more care for their welfare. I never watch the dressage to music, I know why it was introduced, and it made dressage more popular, but to the audience with little understanding of what is correct has bred circus tricks,plus judges who are aware of social media, and they may get thrashed for a marking low.
I also collect old master dressage books, I couldn't afford lessons, and wanted to learn theory, and its all about basics, like making a good sponge cake, you can add all the decoration you want, but if the basic skill is not there, no amount of icing will make it a better cake.
I rarely watch dressage now, and trying to tell riders that they need less hand, to get results,its like p*ssing in the wind.

 

[Goldenstar]

You say what you mean by tension because without a degree of muscle tension the horse would fall down
And Dressage works the horses brain so the horse is thinking hard at Grand Prix
That’s where harmony comes in when a horse is confident in its rider that’s what carry’s them through .
Totilas was confident in EG he was not confident when the rider changed

 

[sbloom]

Tone versus tension? If we're talking about active muscles then I think that tone is what we're looking for. Semantics I know, but it would be very hard to draw lines between acceptable tension and unacceptable, unless we see them as different things. Tope human sprinters have an element of relaxation as they race, tension implies mental tension, to me anyway. We certainly can't expect horses to only look relaxed, but I'm not sure visible tension is desirable.

Harmony, purity of gaits, that's what we should be looking for and I see very little of either.