Low BE entries - what’s up with that?

[shortstuff99]

On that line, BD don't allow their tests to be used in online competitions unless you pay them a registration fee.

 

[TPO]

I think availability of competitions count too.

The Scottish BE calendar is pretty dire and has lost lots of events.

There are a few HT but I can't think of an unaff ODE off the top of my head and definitely no 3 day unaff.

So if you want a decent season just of "doing" a lot of people would do unaff and aff.

However in certain parts of England there is a lot more going on unaff wise so if its cheaper to spend a season doing unaff 60-90 courses over BE tracks it's a no brained? Especially with the change to the GR Badders qualifications now taking 2 years and lack of anything else to aim for?

Plus the difference between possibly wining cold hard cash vs a hoofpick ?

 

[milliepops]

I think the split between BD and unaff dressage is probably still similar to the old relationship between RC/PC ODEs and BE

If you're interested in progressing your training, riding at a higher level and getting feedback from trained judges then the leap to affiliate is an obvious step. I remember a judge putting that i should affiliate in the comments of the last unaff test i rode The offer at BD is not equalled by the unaff scene in many areas. Even in super horsey Gloucestershire unaff competitions above elementary are pretty much non existent. it's like when BE started at Novice. if you want to ride at Medium + you have to affiliate.

of course the quality of unaff competition has improved as more people see value in using listed judges etc but there are still lots of low level *fun* shows judged by randoms for those who just want to have a go

 

[DabDab]

See I think the reason that BD does better out of the grass roots stuff is because they have done quite a good job of making those levels aspirational - not in a can you reach the level kind of way, but aspirational in the sense of having plenty for people who want to stay at a level but still have championship opportunities and the opportunity to develop and get better at that level.

I certainly know plenty of people who compete at Novice, Elementary or Medium with no desire for higher levels but enjoy doing the BD circuit thing and training at those levels.

 

[milliepops]

oh yeah I agree. I just mean there's a clear driver to affiliate still, because of the offer which unaff can't meet, possibly because BD have successfully cornered the market? Round my way even the elem classes where they are offered unaff are not exactly hot competition at most venues, so if you are an ambitious grass roots rider unaff starts to feel a bit pointless?

 

[Jango]

I think a big difference between BD and BE/BS is safety. If I tried to get my horse round a medium test we would score about 40%, but neither of us would be in any danger. Whereas if we tried to jump a BE100 track we could both get seriously hurt.

I think the issues with BE entries are probably a collection of different issues for different people. I think they need to really ask not only their membership but turn up at some decent unaff events and ask for feedback on why not BE (all round the country not just the south!). Ultimately cost is going to be a huge factor, but there is plenty they could do to attract 1 horse, BE80/90/100 amateurs if they wanted to. Tiered membership, local leagues, decent prizes etc. I am planning to do 5 X ODEs next year at 80, maybe 90 level. Probably a mix of unaff and affiliated depending on dates, the ground, how we are progressing. Even if I did 4 X BEs (day ticket limit) there is literally no benefit for me to join, I'm financially better on tickets, if my horse goes lame I haven't lost the membership money. If we did qualify for a championship I could just join then to attend. There must be lots of people like me who want to event, but can't afford/don't have the time to commit their entire summer to it.

When I used to do dressage it made sense to affiliate, as the standard is just so much higher, there's loads to qualify for, prize money and I would ride approx 1 X competition a month all year round, plus I did regionals and area festivals. The high BE fees but the relatively short season (realistically for working amateurs April to sept 6 months) doesn't compare favourably to BS and BD.

 

[DabDab]

Oh yeah definitely. Elementary unaffiliated is more of a practice for BD kind of gig I think.

Although, while not wanting to take anything away from the work that BD have done in that respect, I suppose they don't have the safety/welfare element to deal with in the same way.

 

[ycbm]

On that line, BD don't allow their tests to be used in online competitions unless you pay them a registration fee.

That's fair enough they own the copyright, but you can make up a new dressage test easily. A show jumping round is a show jumping round, surely you you can't protect that when there aren't any BS approved course plans?
.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think they can ?‍, but it has been mentioned that people could be banned for 6 months if found to be competing at an unsanctioned event.

I seriously doubt if they have that power legally. I'd like to see that tested. Maybe instead they should be spending their energies trying to work out why people want to compete unaffiliated and addressing those problems.

For BE it seems clear, it's all about the cost. For me, BD is the same, I just can't see the point of paying the additional five to ten quid per test, plus affiliation fees, until I want points and that wouldn't be until I'm at least doing a competent medium.
.

 

[shortstuff99]

I seriously doubt if they have that power legally. I'd like to see that tested. Maybe instead they should be spending their energies trying to work out why people want to compete unaffiliated and addressing those problems.

For BE it seems clear, it's all about the cost. For me, BD is the same, I just can't see the point of paying the additional five to ten quid per test, plus affiliation fees, until I want points and that wouldn't be until I'm at least doing a competent medium.
.

They're doing it behind the FEI rule, I think it would be hard to enforce for riders that aren't FEI registered.

 

[LEC]

I think the split between BD and unaff dressage is probably still similar to the old relationship between RC/PC ODEs and BE

If you're interested in progressing your training, riding at a higher level and getting feedback from trained judges then the leap to affiliate is an obvious step. I remember a judge putting that i should affiliate in the comments of the last unaff test i rode The offer at BD is not equalled by the unaff scene in many areas. Even in super horsey Gloucestershire unaff competitions above elementary are pretty much non existent. it's like when BE started at Novice. if you want to ride at Medium + you have to affiliate.

of course the quality of unaff competition has improved as more people see value in using listed judges etc but there are still lots of low level *fun* shows judged by randoms for those who just want to have a go

as someone who has never done BD but competes pretty regularly at all the other aff disciplines - I agree, though round here you can do unaff at Adv - med. There are a lot of small series at unaff dr but nothing big and bold like cotswold cup did for eventing. I think due to amount of champs BD offers nobody picks up the mantle on dr. Trail blazers a bit but that seems quite localised.

 

[Old school]

We have an Unaff ODE venue not too far from us, it used to be an EI venue. Love the Unaff ODE, can do all three phases with 45 mins of dressage time, if you wish. Attended 3 EI events this season , XC at 6:30 in the evening, for 2 of them. One venue only had 150 entrants. Mind boggling. 7 hours at the venue. Nuts.

Fence judging too is a nightmare for these ridiculously long days at Aff. But the insight you get fence judging at EI is eye opening. There is significant lack of sharpness about getting things done properly first time. Every event seems to be their first one. No lessons learnt or improvements re running the events are made.

Finally, the ground management knowledge is abysmal. Both competitors and officials seem clueless. The outcome is one EI ODE cancelled this weekend due to lack of entries. With the mix of the above, it is not surprising.

 

[RachelFerd]

So as an update to this thread - I had the opportunity to have a chat with Helen as new BE Chief Exec and feel very reassured that she's got an excellent vision for making proactive changes to the way things are done - potentially addressing lots of the issues raised on this thread. Rome wasn't built in a day etc. but I certainly feel much more positive about the future of the sport I love

 

[Old school]

Sorry, to re-interrupt from a district outside of BE. Did I read that you might have an ERQI system on its way to you in UK? I see the value of it here in EI, but I do think that venues and stewarding should also be rated. That is not a popular opinion when I have voiced it. But if horse and riders are expected to be of a certain standard, in a commercial agreement when we make an entry, so too should the venue and the organisation's representatives. Here is it is very much a weight born by the competitor and no-one else. Lack of balance and lack of transparency allows for indifference.

 

[RachelFerd]

Sorry, to re-interrupt from a district outside of BE. Did I read that you might have an ERQI system on its way to you in UK? I see the value of it here in EI, but I do think that venues and stewarding should also be rated. That is not a popular opinion when I have voiced it. But if horse and riders are expected to be of a certain standard, in a commercial agreement when we make an entry, so too should the venue and the organisation's representatives. Here is it is very much a weight born by the competitor and no-one else. Lack of balance and lack of transparency allows for indifference.

Not that i'm aware of. We have a much more limited version of the ERQI system, which is the 'continued performance requirements' - meaning if you get eliminated (for anything other than a techincal elimination) twice in a row at any level you have to move back down a level and gain an MER before moving back up. If the Es are at BE80 level then you need to be signed off by a BE approved coach.

And I don't really share any specific worries about venues and stewarding on this side - i've very rarely had any real reason to be annoyed by the venues or stewarding on this island!

 

[MagicMelon]

Im in Aberdeenshire, we barely have any BE up here anymore, its certainly not worth joining unless you're willing to travel at least 3 hours to the central belt. I think a lot of people stuggled through covid and perhaps dont have the spare money and time to spend on trips like this anymore. Personally, I have a young horse so I need some unaffilated ODE's under out belt first, BE entries are more expensive so I feel I need to know I can generally get round without being eliminated before even considering it. Up here, we had Burgie BE last weekend (which I didnt do as horse not ready for 80), Im doing the RC ODE there at the weekend instead which has a 70 class and is £30 cheaper. I find RC just more relaxed and low key, great for young horses to start with. There's so few ODE's up here full stop though, I havent seen any other RC ODE's in my area this year, perhaps they just dont advertise them well, I dont know but its very hard to get a young horse out on runs with so little choice.

 

[ycbm]

Just spotted this in the news.

It does seem to me that the new Chief Exec is understanding the issues, though perhaps she doesn't understand what "subsidise" means if she thinks more members paying more fees is somehow BE then subsidising the sport if it spends those fees.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/british-eventing-agm-2021-770503

 

[ester]

Interesting the multiple IT constraint mentions, didn't they spend quite a lot on that

If no abandonment premium does that mean no insurance? Might have said more in the email to members than what hho gives on that?

 

[teapot]

Interesting the multiple IT constraint mentions, didn't they spend quite a lot on that

If no abandonment premium does that mean no insurance? Might have said more in the email to members than what hho gives on that?

It was, in some detail. There's a 180 odd comment thread in the Twitereventing fb group about it!

 

[ester]

Ah I don't do TE.

 

[LEC]

The problem with TE is it’s full of people who don’t actually event so their opinions are IMO not valid. I do actually event, so currently pulling data to decide on how I feel about this subject!

 

[Roxylola]

I'm a bit on the fence about this latest. Not that I event a great deal (not BE anyway), mainly as I can't afford to.
There's at least one in May I won't risk entering with the new set up. I'd take likely ground conditions in to consideration anyway with my entries but even more so now.
Does anyone know why they ballot so early? It's not like times are published well in advance or anything. Personally if the ballot was at 2 weeks I'd feel happier about the change to the abandonment process - at least then I could look at the long range forecast.
Last May we were entered for somerford, when I entered before ballot we'd had a very dry spell, but then a couple of weeks before we started getting a lot of rain. In the end they abandoned but wet doesn't suit us so I probably wouldn't have entered if I'd been able to wait a bit longer

 

[LEC]

They tell us they ballot early to ensure viability of the event. Tbh the whole system pisses me off.
Though admittedly I was entering some unaff ODES up to 2 months in advance but they had a fair WD policy and abandonment.

 

[Roxylola]

I'll enter happily well in advance on that basis - I prefer to book early if I can but not at risk of losing everything due to the weather

 

[teapot]

The problem with TE is it’s full of people who don’t actually event so their opinions are IMO not valid. I do actually event, so currently pulling data to decide on how I feel about this subject!

Oh it's a complete mother's meeting, but there is some sense in there if you dig deep enough.

What I find interesting is all the 'but BE never abandons'. Hmmm go onto the BE facebook page and search for the word 'abandon', either 2019 was a bad year weather wise, or they do abandon more than people are willing to accept.

As a complete outsider too, I do wonder where it stands under consumer law for paying for something, it gets cancelled, you get nothing back...

 

[LEC]

Oh it's a complete mother's meeting, but there is some sense in there if you dig deep enough.

What I find interesting is all the 'but BE never abandons'. Hmmm go onto the BE facebook page and search for the word 'abandon', either 2019 was a bad year weather wise, or they do abandon more than people are willing to accept.

As a complete outsider too, I do wonder where it stands under consumer law for paying for something, it gets cancelled, you get nothing back...

This is why I am pulling data on it. Mine will be based on the SW as thats where I live and know well. I am going back to 2016 currently

 

[RachelFerd]

I emailed in support of retaining AI. I can't think of anything that will put off newish members more than entering an event and never seeing a penny of it again.

Being based in the soggy NW abandonment rates are definitely higher here than in the east of England. So I'd definitely be disproportionately impacted.

 

[Roxylola]

I've seen a few times people saying if you put the saving you're making on insurance to one side it will cover your entry fees if anything I'd abandoned. Which might be the case if you have 6 or more events amd only 1 abandons. I don't enter 6, last year I entered 2 BE of which one abandoned the evening before due to rain

 

[ihatework]

I think the removal of AI may be the death of some early/late events in notoriously wet areas. I’d imagine decreased entries meaning possibly that the events just aren’t viable. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

My view is we will see a reduced calendar a few years from now, more reliance on arena Eventing. More pros will base in Europe for early qualifications. C’est la vie.

I certainly don’t get excited about trucking to Aston or Tweseldown any more!!!!

 

[RachelFerd]

I think the removal of AI may be the death of some early/late events in notoriously wet areas. I’d imagine decreased entries meaning possibly that the events just aren’t viable. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

My view is we will see a reduced calendar a few years from now, more reliance on arena Eventing. More pros will base in Europe for early qualifications. C’est la vie.

I certainly don’t get excited about trucking to Aston or Tweseldown any more!!!!

Some of that early prep stuff has to exist for pathway to big events (eg Badminton) ... But equally applicable at the mid levels - ie. I'll need them to prep for my aim of Chatsworth.
Then again, those qualified for Badminton GR also need prep runs.. perhaps BE80 could be scaled back to a late April start to avoid the wrath of abandonments?

I'd also support a more flexible approach to rescheduling cancelled events and carrying over entries - and for early season events to be able to adapt and run more on a surface.