Low BE entries - what’s up with that?

teapot

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I'd also support a more flexible approach to rescheduling cancelled events and carrying over entries - and for early season events to be able to adapt and run more on a surface.
Let me guess, BE would say monitoring who's owed what credit from x event would be impossible to do? Even though a basic IT system could easily do so? (hahahaha...)
 

ihatework

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Some of that early prep stuff has to exist for pathway to big events (eg Badminton) ... But equally applicable at the mid levels - ie. I'll need them to prep for my aim of Chatsworth.
Then again, those qualified for Badminton GR also need prep runs.. perhaps BE80 could be scaled back to a late April start to avoid the wrath of abandonments?

I'd also support a more flexible approach to rescheduling cancelled events and carrying over entries - and for early season events to be able to adapt and run more on a surface.
Exactly, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think we will see less events over time, early season - particularly at lower levels.
 

LEC

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I have looked at the SW and splitting out March vs April alone has a big difference. March you have a 62% chance of running in the SW vs 80% in April. The data is skewed as well as 2020 was terrible in March but this has been hidden behind Covid as everything cancelled. I used to enter late events but now will not even bother trying until April. Over the years I have not been too badly hit by cancellation and abandonment but I also have enough experience to know what events to enter. Sept/Oct are pretty reliable running at 82%. I didn't bother to split them out for that reason. 2019 was a bad year for cancelling but it looks like a blip.

Its a bit of a mess really and I am not sure they have looked at the big picture with how this will impact entries. Also having to enter 6 weeks in advance will be a swine. The cancellation policy is watery and weak after the ballot date. Plus the psyche of events if they have the entries is to try and run so lots make late decisions on it, and so it should be.
 

Elf On A Shelf

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I do not see how BE can justify keeping full entry fees if they abandon. It is not done in any other form of event - equine or not! It's just plain cheeky expecting people to cough up the cash regardless!

And how many organisers will cancel for barely passable reasons just because they already have the money?
 

BronsonNutter

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If abandonment insurance is scrapped, I'd hope they'd bring in something like a transfer system where your entry could be moved to another event, or the event rescheduled? However, this is BE...
 

ycbm

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I wrote this on the other thread.

I am trying to remember back 20 years. There were a tiny number of events in April or October. If an event was cancelled my recollection is they kept some of the entry fee but not all.

Then insurance was introduced and more events that were very early and very late or ran on very risky ground were scheduled because the organisers knew they would be compensated if they were cancelled.

And that resulted in the crazy situation where every single entry is £15 more expensive to cover the cancellation insurance of events that have a way above average chance of being cancelled, many of which should probably never have been allowed in the schedule in the first place.

If removing insurance results in people not entering events which are likely to have to cancel, then I think that will probably be more fair for the sport overall.
 

LEC

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[QUOTE="ycbm, post: 14780434, member: 118895"
Then insurance was introduced and more events that were very early and very late or ran on very risky ground were scheduled because the organisers knew they would be compensated if they were cancelled.

And that resulted in the crazy situation where every single entry is £15 more expensive to cover the cancellation insurance of events that have a way above average chance of being cancelled, many of which should probably never have been allowed in the schedule in the first place.[/QUOTE]

BE used to cover the cost of organisers cancelling through their own insurance. Then there was a terrible year - cannot remember which but lots cancelled so hence BE couldn’t afford to subsidise it and looked to riders covering insurance.
 

Bernster

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I saw that but wasn’t really sure what the impact would be. Not good at maths! Seems like the main membership was quite expensive, but pay as you go might suit a casual person like me if I ever get to the lofty heights of 80. Then I couldn’t work out what the total cost for me would be over a year! Not that I tried very hard mind you…
 

RachelFerd

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I think PAYG looks great value and will significantly reduce costs for those intending to do less than 10 events in a year - with no hard ceiling on their use as there was with the day ticket system.

There's quite a bit if noise from people who think that 3* one-horse amateurs are being shafted - but the reality is that it's a tiny tiny corner of the market, and why should 80/90 riders be paying the same as them.

I'm pretty sure that new membership structure is going to boost participation when the dust settles.
 

Roxylola

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I've found it a bit confusing re PAYG and qualifying for things. I can't see it made clear anywhere, but I'm assuming it will work like BD where you can get your qualifying scores then upgrade your membership to go to champs.

At the moment it all seems a bit confusing tbh, and I'm not anticipating any significant saving anywhere. Which as people seemed to be saying at grassroots they were choosing unaffiliated because of costs I can't see this making much difference.
 

YorkshireLady

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i think that if you do 10 events and you are 80 or 90 you are better off as a full member. if you are 5 events a year PAYG is great.

I think its interesting that the first level membership is now cheaper than BD. I am not sure this is right really!
 

LEC

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I think PAYG looks great value and will significantly reduce costs for those intending to do less than 10 events in a year - with no hard ceiling on their use as there was with the day ticket system.

There's quite a bit if noise from people who think that 3* one-horse amateurs are being shafted - but the reality is that it's a tiny tiny corner of the market, and why should 80/90 riders be paying the same as them.

I'm pretty sure that new membership structure is going to boost participation when the dust settles.
Also the saving is £23 on overall horse and rider membership so not that great TBH. I know you are a big advocate for BE but I am at the moment looking at this and thinking what is the point? The costs keep going up and my love of the sport does not go up exponentially with it. Actually it has decreased with the loss of special events.

So I have worked out at 80/90 if you did 8 runs in a year it would cost you £24 a run in membership alone.
 

RachelFerd

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I think PAYG looks great value and will significantly reduce costs for those intending to do less than 10 events in a year - with no hard ceiling on their use as there was with the day ticket system.

There's quite a bit if noise from people who think that 3* one-horse amateurs are being shafted - but the reality is that it's a tiny tiny corner of the market, and why should 80/90 riders be paying the same as them.

I'm pretty sure that new membership structure is going to boost participation when the dust settles.
Also the saving is £23 on overall horse and rider membership so not that great TBH. I know you are a big advocate for BE but I am at the moment looking at this and thinking what is the point? The costs keep going up and my love of the sport does not go up exponentially with it. Actually it has decreased with the loss of special events.

So I have worked out at 80/90 if you did 8 runs in a year it would cost you £24 a run in membership alone.

But that's not any more than now is it? it is a saving on now (especially given that with AIP gone you're also saving £7 per entry up to 105 level). So, dependent on events not cancelling, it does make sport a fair bit cheaper.

I'm an advocate for BE because without an sporting body, there will be no structured sport - so I am fairly invested in wanting it to work out because I like doing this sport and want to keep doing it.
 

Roxylola

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I've just seen a response from BE to someone who raised concerns about the increased costs above grassroots.
In summary, it looks like they're addressing the reduction in grassroots because that's what they've seem the biggest loss of entries in. I see two issues with this, first it's still significantly more expensive than unaffiliated (and more complicated to enter with tickets, membership etc)
Secondly grassroots riders do have alternative events to enter, up the levels there aren't unaffiliated events to enter so it's BE or nothing.
I think there are riders now who may look to change discipline as a result of this. In BS if you've got a decent jumper there's good money to be won, a horse with nice flatwork stands a chance of at least winning their entry back at BD, both disciplines continue year round, plenty of indoor venues etc. There's also team chasing, hunting etc as XC alternatives.
It seems to be perhaps better suited to pros with multiple horses if you're going to try and move up levels now, for a one horse person wanting to do 2 or 3 runs at inter the reduction in price I don't think will outweigh the loss if a venue abandons - obviously if you're doing more it potentially would.
I think they could find they lose more with these changes though, they've tried to address costs at grassroots but not by enough imo especially to outweigh the risk of losing all due to abandonment. And it's hitting those competing higher up who have stuck by eventing for love of the sport and are at a high enough level to not have unaffiliated alternatives.
 

RachelFerd

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I've just seen a response from BE to someone who raised concerns about the increased costs above grassroots.
In summary, it looks like they're addressing the reduction in grassroots because that's what they've seem the biggest loss of entries in. I see two issues with this, first it's still significantly more expensive than unaffiliated (and more complicated to enter with tickets, membership etc)
Secondly grassroots riders do have alternative events to enter, up the levels there aren't unaffiliated events to enter so it's BE or nothing.
I think there are riders now who may look to change discipline as a result of this. In BS if you've got a decent jumper there's good money to be won, a horse with nice flatwork stands a chance of at least winning their entry back at BD, both disciplines continue year round, plenty of indoor venues etc. There's also team chasing, hunting etc as XC alternatives.
It seems to be perhaps better suited to pros with multiple horses if you're going to try and move up levels now, for a one horse person wanting to do 2 or 3 runs at inter the reduction in price I don't think will outweigh the loss if a venue abandons - obviously if you're doing more it potentially would.
I think they could find they lose more with these changes though, they've tried to address costs at grassroots but not by enough imo especially to outweigh the risk of losing all due to abandonment. And it's hitting those competing higher up who have stuck by eventing for love of the sport and are at a high enough level to not have unaffiliated alternatives.
I don't think your assessment is really correct. I think there's a lot of tiny violins being played right now by people for whom £150 is a relative drop in the ocean. "I would have been on the British Olympic team but it was £150 too far" etcetera. I read on here that someone assessed the yearly costs of running their daughter's intermediate horse were £33,000 - if £150 is too much on top of that - well...

The new PAYG system is fundamentally simpler than the old day ticket one. For people thinking of doing a handful it will now be closer to unaffiliated prices than it was before. [no i don't love the removal of AIP, but we are where we are - many venues may offer much better refund terms, lets hope].

The riders who want to change discipline - fair enough. But there's no equivalent to to the enjoyment of jumping around novice/2* XC tracks for me (and I also actively SJ, previously teamchased, even rode p2p) - if you love it, you love it. It isn't anyone's birth given right to participate in eventing - if you love it enough to do it, you have to pay for it.

I always find this 'you make more prize money BS/BD' argument bizarre too - most BD classes don't have enough entries to give any prize money at all. I went BS the other day and came 2nd and 1st in my two classes, won £62 which covered entries, but in no way covered the costs of registration or my fuel to get to the venue. And the reality is, I was lucky -most the time I don't win lots of money, as money goes to 1 in 5 starts. So 4 in 5 starters (aka most people) are getting nothing.
 

milliepops

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i used to get my entry fee back in prize money at BD up to about elementary. Agree with RF above that the classes often aren't big enough to expect prize money. even my lowly little horse has won a fair few classes overall but we stopped seeing pennies for that years ago.
 

Roxylola

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Those are fair points @RachelFerd and horses are expensive no matter what. But, I'm a fairly savvy grassroots person. I'm bamboozled by it all and have come to the conclusion as a day ticket member assuming I'm not hammered with abandons it likely won't make a huge difference to me either way. Which is fine, I'll still do a bit of both because I like having a record. So my point there is that BE have literally said they've focused on making it more affordable at grassroots. If I don't think its going to make much difference to me I imagine others feel the same. If there are a lot of tiny violins from higher level riders, and a lot of those are sufficiently disenchanted I'm concerned BE have made a mistake.
I want affiliated sport to continue, I won't go to any old 2 bit unaffiliated, I want quality judging, challenging courses and I'm happy to pay for them - if it was affiliated or cheap and shonky I'd do less runs but they'd all be affiliated, my budget is for the season and I want the best I can for my money. The reduction isn't enough to attract droves of unaffiliated back at grassroots- there are some good alternatives at that level. And the membership increase at a higher level certainly seems to have upset a lot of people.
They may or may not be justified in being upset but that's irrelevant if a significant number choose to leave BE.
I'm worried for my sport not for how it affects my purse on a personal level.
 

RachelFerd

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Those are fair points @RachelFerd and horses are expensive no matter what. But, I'm a fairly savvy grassroots person. I'm bamboozled by it all and have come to the conclusion as a day ticket member assuming I'm not hammered with abandons it likely won't make a huge difference to me either way. Which is fine, I'll still do a bit of both because I like having a record. So my point there is that BE have literally said they've focused on making it more affordable at grassroots. If I don't think its going to make much difference to me I imagine others feel the same. If there are a lot of tiny violins from higher level riders, and a lot of those are sufficiently disenchanted I'm concerned BE have made a mistake.
I want affiliated sport to continue, I won't go to any old 2 bit unaffiliated, I want quality judging, challenging courses and I'm happy to pay for them - if it was affiliated or cheap and shonky I'd do less runs but they'd all be affiliated, my budget is for the season and I want the best I can for my money. The reduction isn't enough to attract droves of unaffiliated back at grassroots- there are some good alternatives at that level. And the membership increase at a higher level certainly seems to have upset a lot of people.
They may or may not be justified in being upset but that's irrelevant if a significant number choose to leave BE.
I'm worried for my sport not for how it affects my purse on a personal level.
I think the tiny violins will fade out when the initial shock subsides into remembering that it is a drop in the ocean. If they want to event they have nowhere else to go unless they leave the country. Which will cost more than £150.

I think the next step (from reading AGM notes etc) is introduction of regional grassroots leagues/champs which should incentivise a little bit more regular participation.

I think the whole point of the PAYG system is that it doesn't reward the 'one off' BE entry (which was £15 day pass membership plus £25 per event (£40 cost to do 1 event, £115 to do 4 events, no option to do more than 4 events without then forking out for a full membership), but does reward more participation (PAYG £60 membership plus £15 per event, so £75 to do 1 event, £120 to do 4 events, £150 to do 6 events, no upper cap) - so hopefully people will enjoy the events they enter and decide to run more 5, 6, 7, 8 times in the season and work on getting points for a regional league (in the same way that they have enjoyed doing for the cotswold cup, IF they happened to live in the right area....)
 

I'm Dun

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It seems very complicated! I have one horse, not a hope in hell of chasing badminton etc, but would like to get round two or three 80/90s over the season. I'm not sure I can work out what it actually costs per event based on whats been released so far, but I need to sit down and read it properly later! I think on balance I'm still leaning heavily towards unaffiliated, but I am lucky to be in a part of the world that has them in abundance.

Maybe if I ever get to the point I want to chase grass roots qualifications then it might be worth a rethink though
 

ScampiBigMan

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Just another insult to add to the many have received from BE over many years

It's a great product (doing the actual eventing) but you do get punished as a customer if not part of the clique

Love my horses, love doing the actual eventing, some of fellow competitors, organisers, hosts, volunteers are good fun too

Vast majority of people involved in all aspects and particuarly at higher levels - would happily never meet or spend time with them again - and as I am not 'one of them' am sure is mutual

But that is the case for much of the horse sector. It's always been the horses I liked

Endurance GB are much more welcoming and supportive of people interested in their sport and you even get (very nice) rosettes for completing as well as multiple achievable goals for progress. Don't get the thrill that get XC but there are just so many downsides once you get past Novice BE, the disproprotionate cost increase if want to go FEI 3* is the latest addition.

We'll see how it plays out
 
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