Low Hand Epidemic

soulfull said:
Unfortunately it seems to be being taught by most of the instructors in my area :(
Just the same as to keep a horse on the outside track you pull back and hard on the outside rein :(
Click to expand...

Seriously? I can't believe what I am reading on this thread. :(

I can't even possibly think how pulling on the outside rein is remotely going to help, not even in a 'false' way. Surely it will just encourage hollowing and falling in through the shoulder?!
 
TheMule said:
Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
Click to expand...


The vibrating fingers was not explained to me as a way to get the horse round, more as a way to keep the horse from fixing on the contact, almost like a constant conversation between you. It's a very slight vibration, only just above having fixed fingers. It's so difficult to explain in words, I was shown it, which is much easier.
 
cptrayes said:
The vibrating fingers was not explained to me as a way to get the horse round, more as a way to keep the horse from fixing on the contact, almost like a constant conversation between you. It's a very slight vibration, only just above having fixed fingers. It's so difficult to explain in words, I was shown it, which is much easier.
Click to expand...

Charles de Kunffy taught this method also in his clinic - for exactly the reason you state cptrayes - to keep a conversation going.
 
TheMule said:
Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
Click to expand...

That. With the addendum of the goal being a straight line from elbow to mouth. This may be momentarily broken for a specific purpose but not as a practice.

The thing is, you can't have a conversation with the horse without this connection.

This thread makes me sad. It's such an amazing feeling to have the rein alive in your hand, it's depressing that people are being taught something that actually takes them further away from being that.
 
TheMule said:
Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
Click to expand...

Pigeon said:
I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time.
Click to expand...

TarrSteps said:
That. With the addendum of the goal being a straight line from elbow to mouth. This may be momentarily broken for a specific purpose but not as a practice.

The thing is, you can't have a conversation with the horse without this connection.

This thread makes me sad. It's such an amazing feeling to have the rein alive in your hand, it's depressing that people are being taught something that actually takes them further away from being that.
Click to expand...

All of this.

The end result of this constant fiddling/vibrating/whatever is a wiggly wobbly inconsistent contact in which the horse doesn't know whether they're coming or going.
 
nikkimariet said:
All of this.

The end result of this constant fiddling/vibrating/whatever is a wiggly wobbly inconsistent contact in which the horse doesn't know whether they're coming or going.
Click to expand...

Who said 'constant'? Nothing to do with being a constant thing at all - a rein vibration is used when required. It's hard to teach 'feel' and hard to explain it - it becomes a second nature, which is why even the best instructors often struggle.
 
Last edited:
Stupid question: this line from elbow to mouth - I'm not really 'getting' it, and can't imagine it in my head. Could someone draw it on a picture for me?

Ps: agree with NMT - how can it be a consistent contact that a horse works into if you move the goal posts by wiggling it ever second or two? Agree that there needs to be a balance between a conversation as suggested and an inconsistent contact - but its striking that balance that is difficult meaning people fall into either fixed contacts or this wiggling business.
 
HayleyUK said:
Stupid question: this line from elbow to mouth - I'm not really 'getting' it, and can't imagine it in my head. Could someone draw it on a picture for me?
Click to expand...

If you look at Pigeon's signature pics you can clearly see a perfect straight line from her elbow through the rein to the mouth. It's a great example.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Who said 'constant'? Nothing to do with being a constant thing at all - a rein vibration is used when required. It's hard to teach 'feel' and hard to explain it - it becomes a second nature, which is why even the best instructors often struggle.
Click to expand...

Well actually Ferdi Eilberg said 'all ze time,,,, all ze time' and if I could ride one tenth as well as Michael or Maria I'd be a very happy person :)
 
Last edited:
I do think if someone could bottle this, it would make such a difference to so many of us who struggle with this!

It does seem to be hard to explain, and showing people might be the only effective way. Cos you can see how very very easy it is to read vibration, half halts, having a conversation, moving the bit etc etc., to mean wiggle your hands from side to side, or pull the bit left and right i.e. see saw hands, or result in pulling back with the hands.
 
Hmmmm, well I personally wouldn’t be happy with making constant vibrations down the rein.

Yes, every now and then to stop the bit going static in the horse’s mouth, but IMO the rider shouldn’t need to keep ‘pulsing’ the reins every stride. That (IMO) is too much of a conversation and depending on how stable and co-ordinated you are with your upper body, could lead to constant ‘movement’ of the whole rein/contact, which just keeps moving the goal posts for the horse.

Surely it is the elbow that provides the contact, that should be soft and bent and allowing and restricting as and when needed. Your hands are merely a suitable object in which to hold the reins, these should (again, all IMO and I am by no means perfect in my contact but it is something I am becoming increasingly conscious about) be soft (wrists) but with a firm enough grip to feel what is going on and *if* what is going on is the horse starting to ‘fix’ onto the bit then yes, make a pulse/vibration if and when needed but again, I shouldn’t think that need *should* be constant.
 
Somehow I don't think the Eilberg success is all down to a vibrating hand. ;)

No one is going to win this one, folks, because there is no one answer. That's like saying there is one, and only one, conversation that can ever be had. If a horse is tough and shoving my hand out of the way I might close my fingers and use the muscles of my arms and back to say, ' Oi, horse, none of that!' But for one that is scared of the hand I'll keep the hand very still and soft and say, 'C'mon, little horse, just have a look at it.' With the second horse I might tolerate a bit of stiffness in the jaw short term in the name of confidence, in the former, I would forgive some unsteadiness.

'Feel' can be learned. The problem is it's not very exciting work and many people would rather prioritise other aspects of their riding. Fair enough. If instructors are having success with this sort of thing - in the face of ample literature to the contrary and the example of pretty much every top rider in the world - then there must be a market.
 
I was taught still Still STILL hands, with leg, Leg, LEG! That an outline comes from the the horse being forward, straight, and relaxed. That HE must carry himself forward into it, not be put into it. I was taught that there is a time and a place for a wide, lower (not LOW and straight elbowed) hand and this is normally during stretching.

Throughout the later years of my education, I have been taught that the closer to still and perfect I sit, the easier it is for the horse to go correctly. Once you stop nagging, and tweaking, and just ride still and Forward, the horse will have the ability to carry himself.

Once you can sit and have the soft, consistent hand, then I believe you can go forward to the 'conversation' part... when your hand is completely independent from your body. I was taught that a little vibration, not a drop and yank, will soften a slightly stiff jaw. Kind of like 3 or 4 very tiny, and in succession half halts.

In regards to this thread, I'd be interested in seeing peoples own definitions of the 'low and fixed hand' everyone is raving about... because I bet some of them would actually fall under a 'soft, stretchy, extended' contact, which there is more than enough time and places for.


My hand position is something I have struggled with over the years. I'm more than brave enough to post pictures but photobucket won't load at work just now :( Will post some later so people can offer their opinions on whether I'm talking rubbish or not!
 
YasandCrystal said:
Who said 'constant'? Nothing to do with being a constant thing at all - a rein vibration is used when required. It's hard to teach 'feel' and hard to explain it - it becomes a second nature, which is why even the best instructors often struggle.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I don't see the advantage of riding round sponging/vibrating/whatever the reins 'all ze time'.
 
Reflecting on it - i get far better work out of my mare if I sit, ask for roundness/softness/contact/outline (whatever you want to call it) and then just sit there holding my reins doing absolutely nothing with them except softening muscle tone when she gives me what I want.

My instructor will often say "don't get into the fight over it, just ask and expect it to happen" and by this she means sitting with a quiet still hand not nagging/vibrating/changing the feel down the rein.

I can't really see in my mind, nor in practice - and I'm not saying it won't work for some or that Ferdi is wrong - how niggling down the rein however slightly all the time gives that black and white 'this is good because I've rewarded you by softening', 'this is not good because i'm not softening/still asking' scenario that we seem to all base our training around?
 
The low-wide thing seems to be a very UK centred thing though? I haven't seen it anywhere else I've been recently (Spain, France, US, Canada). Thing is, if they're teaching this it will have all sorts of derogatory effects: horses not able to stretch (despite what everyone thinks, it isn't going to let the horses go down to the rein); HORRIBLE dead feel for the horse, and therefore also for the rider - or no feel at all; riders tipping forwards all the time and not using their legs/seat. NO horse is EVER going to round up into that sort of contact. The thing about a straight line contact is that it is (or should be) elastic, because ALL the joints from the fingers/wrists/elbows/shoulders/back can move as one. With a broken line contact (wide/low) there can be no connection and the give element is too slow and jerky, if it is given at all. This vibrating thing worries me too, because no matter how you try and visualize it for students, words can never adequately describe the feeling that you are trying to convey, nor the timing which is just as or even more important. It isn't a vibration, it's a conversation in which you ask and respond instantly. If you just keep mindlessly asking without knowing the answer the horse can never understand the question.
 
Jenni_ said:
In regards to this thread, I'd be interested in seeing peoples own definitions of the 'low and fixed hand' everyone is raving about... because I bet some of them would actually fall under a 'soft, stretchy, extended' contact, which there is more than enough time and places for.
Click to expand...

Search YouTube for 'prelim' and you'll find them. The very first one I looked at is like it,but I don't think it would be fair of me to post a link to a complete stranger's video even if it is publicly available.

I don't think it's possible to have a soft stretchy contact with straight arms, which is what you can find everywhere these days.
 
HayleyUK said:
Reflecting on it - i get far better work out of my mare if I sit, ask for roundness/softness/contact/outline (whatever you want to call it) and then just sit there holding my reins doing absolutely nothing with them except softening muscle tone when she gives me what I want.

My instructor will often say "don't get into the fight over it, just ask and expect it to happen" and by this she means sitting with a quiet still hand not nagging/vibrating/changing the feel down the rein.

I can't really see in my mind, nor in practice - and I'm not saying it won't work for some or that Ferdi is wrong - how niggling down the rein however slightly all the time gives that black and white 'this is good because I've rewarded you by softening', 'this is not good because i'm not softening/still asking' scenario that we seem to all base our training around?
Click to expand...

I was never taught to do it constantly, you should have soft still hands constantly. But a little vibration on a stiff jaw to say 'I'll give if you give' and when they relax the jaw keep the contact soft again. Jaw needs to be soft for the poll to be soft, poll needs to be soft for the neck to be soft, and the neck needs to be soft for the back to be soft and all that!
 
Perfect_Pirouette said:
Hmmmm, well I personally wouldn’t be happy with making constant vibrations down the rein.

Yes, every now and then to stop the bit going static in the horse’s mouth, but IMO the rider shouldn’t need to keep ‘pulsing’ the reins every stride. That (IMO) is too much of a conversation and depending on how stable and co-ordinated you are with your upper body, could lead to constant ‘movement’ of the whole rein/contact, which just keeps moving the goal posts for the horse.

Surely it is the elbow that provides the contact, that should be soft and bent and allowing and restricting as and when needed. Your hands are merely a suitable object in which to hold the reins, these should (again, all IMO and I am by no means perfect in my contact but it is something I am becoming increasingly conscious about) be soft (wrists) but with a firm enough grip to feel what is going on and *if* what is going on is the horse starting to ‘fix’ onto the bit then yes, make a pulse/vibration if and when needed but again, I shouldn’t think that need *should* be constant.
Click to expand...

I agree with this fully
 
Carl and Charlotte would be perfect examples of hand position – soft still hands, giving elbow and with a classic shoulder, hip, heal alignment.
As my instructor always says to me – shorter rein, longer arm.

Interesting thread.
 
cptrayes said:
Search YouTube for 'prelim' and you'll find them. The very first one I looked at is like it,but I don't think it would be fair of me to post a link to a complete stranger's video even if it is publicly available.

I don't think it's possible to have a soft stretchy contact with straight arms, which is what you can find everywhere these days.
Click to expand...

In competition I'd expect those to be doing it out of bad habit, its more the folk who see people training/schooling and go 'oh they've got a low/fixed hand' when they may infact be doing some stretchy stretchy, 'take my hand forward' work.
 
Moomin1 said:
Where has CPT done this?
Click to expand...

Another genuine question Moomin?

On someone else's thread a while back now, that had nothing to do with me and not a thread I had posted on.. It's ok to repost my pictures apparently, but not someone else's video.

Nowt as queer as folk.
 
KautoStar1 said:
Carl and Charlotte would be perfect examples of hand position – soft still hands, giving elbow and with a classic shoulder, hip, heal alignment.
As my instructor always says to me – shorter rein, longer arm.

Interesting thread.
Click to expand...

Yes, and even the top riders can't be perfect all the time. There are plenty of vids of Laura Bechtolsheimer having to move her hands an awful lot to control Mistral Hojris.

I think we can let ourselves off the hook :)
 
Jenni_ said:
In competition I'd expect those to be doing it out of bad habit, its more the folk who see people training/schooling and go 'oh they've got a low/fixed hand' when they may infact be doing some stretchy stretchy, 'take my hand forward' work.
Click to expand...

Jenni lots of people earlier on in the thread have reported seeing trainers training a low, fixed hand. Although I only see them when I compete, I do believe that given the number I am seeing, that it is as a result of consistently training this way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top