Low Hand Epidemic

I was a fixed. low hand person... with open fingers being responsible for any softness- resulting in reins just getting longer!

Bending my elbows was a reveleation! (and closing my hands :D )
 
ester said:
I was a fixed. low hand person... with open fingers being responsible for any softness- resulting in reins just getting longer!

Bending my elbows was a reveleation! (and closing my hands :D )
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Did someone teach you Ester, or did you just discover it?
 
ooh a bit of a both I think, I've learnt an awful lot more since having my own than in RS. So yeah a bit of playing around, a bit of guidance, a bit of watching others that were much better than me ;) I discovered the outside rein about the same sort of time too!

I'd never been taught low hands fwiw, just never had them corrected.
 
Cptrayes - just found your youtube page and was expecting to watch and see great things. I was dissapointed and quite shocked actually watching through them :( someone that speaks so highly of their knowledge and quickness to critque others id expect some very talented effortless riding - this i did not see.

I dont *think* ive ever had anything to do with you before but things pass by so quick on hho so can never remember anyway but im actually quite insulted/offended the way you comment on other peoples riding/way of going. Im not interested in starting arguments as im very much a lurker nowadays but i do wish people would think before they speak (or type).
 
Low hands straight arms, particularly in prelim dressage, often come down to ride too long (because dressage equals long stirrups) causing riders to ride on their toes, pitch forward and balance on their hands.
As an instructor I find myself telling people to lower their hands as much as I tell them to lift them, but that has nothing to do with getting the horse to work in an outline and more to stop them yanking the horse in the chops or falling off!!
 
rachaelstar said:
Cptrayes - just found your youtube page and was expecting to watch and see great things. I was dissapointed and quite shocked actually watching through them :( someone that speaks so highly of their knowledge and quickness to critque others id expect some very talented effortless riding - this i did not see.

I dont *think* ive ever had anything to do with you before but things pass by so quick on hho so can never remember anyway but im actually quite insulted/offended the way you comment on other peoples riding/way of going. Im not interested in starting arguments as im very much a lurker nowadays but i do wish people would think before they speak (or type).
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If the YouTube page is vids of CPT riding then surely it's just as insulting to be saying what you are about her riding as you say she is about others?
 
Jenni_ said:
I was never taught to do it constantly, you should have soft still hands constantly. But a little vibration on a stiff jaw to say 'I'll give if you give' and when they relax the jaw keep the contact soft again. Jaw needs to be soft for the poll to be soft, poll needs to be soft for the neck to be soft, and the neck needs to be soft for the back to be soft and all that!
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Thats exactly how I'm taught - and it works.

I was referring in some way to the comments made about doing this niggling thing "all the time" - If i niggled the rein 24/7 on board, where is the 'reward' or let up? How does the pony know what she's done is right - whereas with the way I (and you) are referring to, the softness and stillness is the reward.
 
*rolls eyes* when people make comments about other peoples riding through a forum you expect them to be established at a fairly decent level and have some expertise behind them. I was expecting to watch and enjoy her videos but unfortunately didnt. This is the first time i have commented on someones riding on a forum as i do not have the expertise or established at a high level (currently competing at elem and schooling med on one horse i ride) although, i havent actually stated 'she is a bad rider' comments, i was just expecting to enjoy watching the videos.
 
rachaelstar said:
*rolls eyes* when people make comments about other peoples riding through a forum you expect them to be established at a fairly decent level and have some expertise behind them. I was expecting to watch and enjoy her videos but unfortunately didnt. This is the first time i have commented on someones riding on a forum as i do not have the expertise or established at a high level (currently competing at elem and schooling med on one horse i ride) although, i havent actually stated 'she is a bad rider' comments, i was just expecting to enjoy watching the videos.
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I may be wrong, but I can't see where CPT has made comments about other people's riding in particular? The thread appears to be talking about the issue in general.
 
Whether its a direct/indirect or a generalisation there is no need for comments to be made. Everyone has to start and learn somewhere - i dont believe anyone is gifted with the talent of being an amazing rider without help along the way. Id rather see crotch hands than snatch hands anyday!!
 
HayleyUK said:
Thats exactly how I'm taught - and it works.

I was referring in some way to the comments made about doing this niggling thing "all the time" - If i niggled the rein 24/7 on board, where is the 'reward' or let up? How does the pony know what she's done is right - whereas with the way I (and you) are referring to, the softness and stillness is the reward.
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Exactly! I didn't want people thinking I meant to niggle constantly lol.

Disclaimer here- I am actually a not very good rider. I know a lot more in theory than I am actually able to do due to a few years of watching and having commentary from dressage riders. But I can execute the basics of an effective position and have a good starting grasp of the 'feel' I think....
 
Ive been trying to visualise the low hands look since opening this thread, but after a quick look on some youtube videos I can see what it looks like now.
It dosent resemble the straight line from elbow to horse's mouth that I was taught at RS in the 80's.

Maybe this low hand (as already suggested) is partly taught, but it could also be rider tension, eg. tense shoulders, or lack of core balance or a habit acquired?
Maybe a poorly fitting saddle, tipping rider forwards?

Either way, it doesn't look particularly kind on the horse's mouth, but rider's may not be aware that they are doing it. It's so easy to fall into bad habits without realising it.
 
KautoStar1 said:
Carl and Charlotte would be perfect examples of hand position – soft still hands, giving elbow and with a classic shoulder, hip, heal alignment.
As my instructor always says to me – shorter rein, longer arm.

Interesting thread.
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Very much. But most people see them only on Advanced horses and even their young horses will be naturally uphill. Without context, this can give people the wrong idea of 'correct'.

Although I agree that I have never seen a good rider ever riding with a straight arm and the line broken below.
 
Tilo said:
Ive been trying to visualise the low hands look since opening this thread, but after a quick look on some youtube videos I can see what it looks like now.
It dosent resemble the straight line from elbow to horse's mouth that I was taught at RS in the 80's.

Maybe this low hand (as already suggested) is partly taught, but it could also be rider tension, eg. tense shoulders, or lack of core balance or a habit acquired?
Maybe a poorly fitting saddle, tipping rider forwards?

Either way, it doesn't look particularly kind on the horse's mouth, but rider's may not be aware that they are doing it. It's so easy to fall into bad habits without realising it.
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It is definitely being taught (I took a lesson at a clinic with a visiting UK dressage person who advised me to do this with a very difficult in the mouth horse - who came this way, from the UK incidentally ), and possibly now other people are following the trend. But......it, A. doesn't work! B. causes havoc with riders tipping forwards, and generally further contributes to the awful standards of riding so often seen.
 
I will open up my opinions in pictures so anyone who had criticism feel free to express!

Hands here- too low and pretty fixed
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Straight elbows but not grabby and pretty stillhand needs picked up and bend in the elbow
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Hands here are low - although it is a blurry picture the line from elbow to mouth is pretty straight and the low hands here were being used to encourage a very 'up in front' horse to stretch down into a less advanced, relaxed outline.
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Hands perhaps a bit high here- possibly because she had just attempted a flyer and I had to take a bit of a hold but an improvement on the old crotch hands
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Slightly lower hands again to encourage a longer frame but a bend in the elbow and arm is independent from the body and hand is quiet (I hope ;))
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Hand is picked up, perhaps again slightly too high- and I'm maybe sitting back a bit far.
C82993FD-FC24-41EE-9DA6-E0C8067CC702-1553-00000115BF780D53_zps718ce002.jpg


These pictures start at 2010 and go up to about 3 months ago. From what I can see, I've gradually stopped tipping as badly and my position looks more relaxed and softer as I've brought my hands up. I am by no means a good or tidy rider but I hope these pictures show even slightly the change in bringing the hand up.

Totally open to criticism if anyone disagrees and am happy for any of these pictures to be used as examples of what people are trying to explain if relevant.
 
Not going to crit your riding (which is not bad, BTW), but just want to say that the hands don't necessarily go lower when asking the horse to stretch down, but they do go FORWARDS to follow the horse down. And it's the wide thing that puzzles me; why do that? (You're not doing that, to clarify!)
 
Cortez said:
Not going to crit your riding (which is not bad, BTW), but just want to say that the hands don't necessarily go lower when asking the horse to stretch down, but they do go FORWARDS to follow the horse down. And it's the wide thing that puzzles me; why do that? (You're not doing that, to clarify!)
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Totally agree, think it was a bit confusing the way I explained it. With that particular horse we found the only way to make him relax into a longer frame was to put them down a wee bit- tried the just pushing forward alone and he didn't take it. forward and down a wee tad, nice relaxed outline, then slowly picked him up.

But- as you can see I am tipping a bit in that picture still so with a bit of tweaking I probably could have had the best of both worlds!
 
I don't think you need to be a perfect rider to comment, just aware of your own shortcomings.

I'm by no means the next Charlotte- but I do know where my faults are, work on them with lessons and absorb theory through watching, reading, discussion. By some of the comments on here, I'd be inclined to suggest you'd think I shouldn't comment, because my riding isn't of the standard of Carl for example. The fact I may struggle to put something into practice, or need to ask for clarification on a topic/idea/suggestion doesn't mean I don't know what the ideal is.

The danger is when people who think things like low hands etc are the right way or the ideal and then enforce this on others.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
oh dear. if I have to explain it it won't be funny. snatch is slang for crotch in certain parts of the country-obviously not warwickshire :). *awaits infraction*
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Im from Warwickshire and knew exactly what you meant

Im enjoying reading this thread because i suffer from rein slippage too and have too soft a contact im trying desperately hard to keep the bend in my elbows and ride with my hands as a pair in front of me, i don't travel around them on my horses neck, but theyre not proper. When i have a lesson im constantly reminded hands in front of you as a pair its not easy when your a short armed midget tho!
 
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rachaelstar said:
Whether its a direct/indirect or a generalisation there is no need for comments to be made. Everyone has to start and learn somewhere - i dont believe anyone is gifted with the talent of being an amazing rider without help along the way. Id rather see crotch hands than snatch hands anyday!!
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I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that people shouldn't post threads asking about incorrect riding/methods? That seems a bit far fetched! ;-)

And to be fair, you did comment that CPT's riding was not as good as you were expecting, and insinuated that she shouldn't therefore be in a position to comment. Or at least, that is how it came across. :-(
 
rachaelstar said:
Cptrayes - just found your youtube page and was expecting to watch and see great things. I was dissapointed and quite shocked actually watching through them :( someone that speaks so highly of their knowledge and quickness to critque others id expect some very talented effortless riding - this i did not see.

I dont *think* ive ever had anything to do with you before but things pass by so quick on hho so can never remember anyway but im actually quite insulted/offended the way you comment on other peoples riding/way of going. Im not interested in starting arguments as im very much a lurker nowadays but i do wish people would think before they speak (or type).
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Unlike you, I have never criticised anyone's riding on this forum.

Your expectation of my riding was not set by me, contrary to your suggestion, I have never claimed anything of my riding ability on this forum or any other.

This forum would be empty if only the perfect could ever question anything.


p.s. the dark horse had some difficult behaviours in a competition environment which I was advised to force into submission by a lot of people who know better, in theory, than me. The last comment from a listed BD judge I had was, 'he needs a man on him'. Instead, I continued to try to find out what his problem was and he is currently two weeks into his rehab for ligament resection on six kissing spines.
 
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Cortez said:
Not going to crit your riding (which is not bad, BTW), but just want to say that the hands don't necessarily go lower when asking the horse to stretch down, but they do go FORWARDS to follow the horse down. And it's the wide thing that puzzles me; why do that? (You're not doing that, to clarify!)
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I'm currently being told to do the wide and low thing with my hands, by two different instructors, both of whom I rate for different reasons. In my case, I suspect it's connected to my inconsistent rein contact as well as other things that are going on with horse and rider, and she def responds when I do, by softening, lowering her head and bringing her back up so I'm assuming it must be doing some good. But maybe what this is is an example of the stretchy long n low that some people on here have been talking about. I will ask during my next lesson!

Finding this thread very handy, well, the bits where people are actually talking about pros, cons and what they mean anyway. The intermittent personal digs between posters, less so ;-)
 
Bernster said:
I'm currently being told to do the wide and low thing with my hands, by two different instructors, both of whom I rate for different reasons. In my case, I suspect it's connected to my inconsistent rein contact as well as other things that are going on with horse and rider, and she def responds when I do, by softening, lowering her head and bringing her back up so I'm assuming it must be doing some good. But maybe what this is is an example of the stretchy long n low that some people on here have been talking about. I will ask during my next lesson!

Finding this thread very handy, well, the bits where people are actually talking about pros, cons and what they mean anyway. The intermittent personal digs between posters, less so ;-)
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I do the wide and low thing. I find it an easy way to get the horse to go long deep and round with a bouncing back. I'm puzzled by people seeming to say it doesn't work, because it does for me :)
 
cptrayes said:
I do the wide and low thing. I find it an easy way to get the horse to go long deep and round with a bouncing back. I'm puzzled by people seeming to say it doesn't work, because it does for me :)
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I have to say, having a horse who is large shouldered and large hindquartered, who struggles to work through properly as a result, the low and wide has really helped in getting her rounding her back and asking for a contact. I have to do very little with the rein/bit other than ask for a slight inside bend and the very odd reminder with a little squeeze when I use this method. And I know what you mean by the 'bouncing back' - it's the only method so far which has enabled us to achieve that. Not saying of course that other methods won't in the future, but for now, whilst she is building her muscles up, it seems to really benefit her.
 
Hmm, that's interesting, because I've never seen this method make any lasting improvement to a horse's acceptance of the bit, understanding of connection or longitudinal flexion - perhaps the practitioners who have found it useful are more skilled than those I've seen do it? It doesn't make any sense from a theoretical point of view either, but I await further clarification, especially on why wide hands are considered helpful.

ETA: being the good student I try to be, I did do this when asked by the English instructor - horse was utterly freaked out and it set us back weeks, but this is a particularly difficult rescue horse who's not been well served by previous riding and is terrified of his mouth, poor chap. I just fail to see how this would be useful at all.
 
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