Major hoof boot woes

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Akkalia1

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Starting to think I am not going to be able to get a boot to suit her hind feet :(

Will try and condense. Started with cavallo simples, rub and she doesn't seem to find them comfy particularly on her hinds - she takes short strides.

Tried renegade vipers, fitted the fronts, bought those. Hinds twisted, tried all sorts of adjustments, smaller parts etc, thought I might get away with them but then one twisted so far round that the hard part where the pastern strap attaches was sitting behind her pastern and she was rubbed raw and bleeding, sent the back ones back (they were on hire).

Trimmer said I really shouldn't ride without pads at the moment while she's transitioning, so front renegades now redundant as can't use pads in them. Back to cavallos on the front with pads and socks to stop rubbing (have bought boa gaiters to try), she seems ok with this. Hired equine fusion ultras for backs. They twist a bit but as the top part is soft it didn't rub her. However the back straps kept loosening and the boot slouched, probably due to their desire to twist. And I had to do them up so tight at the top to stop the twisting that she came out the next morning with swollen back pasterns.

Next suggestion to hire is the new trail 2. Look like a good fit for her hoof dimensions but my concern is they're a similar style to the cavallo, so will she also find them awkward and not be able to stride out in them? Starting to think I may just have to use cavallos all round for now with gaiters to stop rubbing, but I don't like the effect on her movement. Annoyingly the cavallos are the only boots so far that don't bloody twist on her backs!!!

Arghhhhhhhhh, spending a fortune on hire and want to cry! Fed up of boot testing and so is Luna I suspect.
 
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Does she definitely need them behind? Twisting hinds is a known issue with them sadly are you on the barefoot for whole horse health fb group? There is a lady on there called vicki who is very experienced boot wise who might have some thoughts/suggestions too.
 
Trimmer says she definitely needs them all round with pads at the moment. When she first came to me she just had front racing plates on and I rode without back shoes for a while, but she became sore on rough tarmac and she was getting bruised. There are quite a few stony tracks too where I ride unfortunately. I'm hoping in time she might not but she does just now. Not on that group, will see if I can join, thanks!
 
I've not had a lot of success with boots. All of mine are big movers and tend to pull them off the fronts. Never needed them on the backs.

At the end of the day you have a few choices.

Scale the work down to the point she can be without boots behind. (A bit naff given the time of year).

Keep persevering with different boots.

Put shoes on.

I am in the same dilemma at the moment really as I've taken the shoes off my new WB about 5 weeks ago now. Boots keep pinging off and the terrain around me is such that they are down right dangerous in the mud. He only needs them in front. I am signed up to do the Wobbleberry challenge on him this year so I am seriously thinking about putting fronts back on until I've done it then taking them off again. It's for my convenience and enjoyment to put them back on, that is the sticking point for me. I have 7 others barefoot inc another WB it's just time is against me at the moment. He does have pretty good feet as well and I've seen some very positive changes already so it's churning round in my head what is the best thing to do.
 
FW, I'd be looking at it as - most stuff we do with them is for our convenience and enjoyment - his feet will have improved anyway I expect so you won't be going backwards by putting fronts on him for a bit, and you can always continue your bf journey later on when the timing is more sensible.

I persevered with boots of a gazillion kinds with Millie, she needs the legwork to keep herself strong and her feet weren't keeping up fast enough at a time when I couldn't scale her work back because her injuries wouldn't heal without it. The roads here are like glass and we were slipping all over the place in boots, that PLUS if I led K out with her she would pull them off. I relented and shod her again with road pins all round. Her hooves are a better shape for the time bf but for us it was the only sensible decision.

No help to you OP, other than I thought you could get renegades with pads factory installed? might be worth a look if the fronts were working OK. I had to use gaitors with cavallos but they did horrible things to my horse's gait too.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I've not had a lot of success with boots. All of mine are big movers and tend to pull them off the fronts. Never needed them on the backs.

At the end of the day you have a few choices.

Scale the work down to the point she can be without boots behind. (A bit naff given the time of year).

Keep persevering with different boots.

Put shoes on.

I am in the same dilemma at the moment really as I've taken the shoes off my new WB about 5 weeks ago now. Boots keep pinging off and the terrain around me is such that they are down right dangerous in the mud. He only needs them in front. I am signed up to do the Wobbleberry challenge on him this year so I am seriously thinking about putting fronts back on until I've done it then taking them off again. It's for my convenience and enjoyment to put them back on, that is the sticking point for me. I have 7 others barefoot inc another WB it's just time is against me at the moment. He does have pretty good feet as well and I've seen some very positive changes already so it's churning round in my head what is the best thing to do.
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Thanks FW. I am having a bit of a battle with what to do for the best.

With regards to scaling down the work, we are doing very little anyway as we've only just started hacking out again following at least 6 months of groundwork (anxiety issues), and we're really only walking with a bit of trot work..She is finally in a much better state mentally and I really want to keep the workload as it is and with the aim of increasing it as I think to go back to groundwork would put our progress back a bit. She's 5 in April. However the field should be drying up from now on and would hope to be able to do some ridden work in there without boots so an increase her trot work in there and keep the walking hacking going on. The boots are probably workable for the slow hacking but anything faster and I think I'd be struggling even more.

Putting shoes back on, I have toyed with this. The reason they came off in the first place was they were crumbling around the nails and she was ripping hoof off after a week or 2 of being shod. it may be that her hooves are stronger now but a little worried the same thing will happen. plus after reading up on barefoot and getting advice from the trimmer it sounds like it could be so beneficial to her long-term hoof development to keep going with barefoot if we can get through the initial stage. Her soles are flat, her heels are under-run and her digital cushions are so underdeveloped. That's not to say her feet are awful, they're not but I guess if I put shoes back on they're as good as they're going to get just now. But then if I put them on and she holds them it'll be far easier to work her in the manner I think she needs just now. Such a hard decision!!

Thanks Milliepops, it does seem like it's very hard to get a boot that suits. If she didn't need them on the backs too it would be much easier. You can get the renegades with pads factory fitted, but unfortunately I'd already bought the front pair before my trimmer said I should be using pads :/ And they're not suiting her on the backs just now anyway.

Yes, the cavallos are not great, getting nowhere really am I??
 
Having seen her feet and given her age I would be reluctant to put shoes back on just yet I think long term she will benefit especially now you have someone else on board. I do however think it is perfectly acceptable to put a time limit on how long you persevere for, and that you could consider some of the non nailed/metal options too if protection is required behind and boots just don't work.

Your other option if you think she really needs to do more now is to shoe and but accept that you may have to then start from day one again at some point, though that might be well down the line.

I would wonder if a glove/back country with athletic tape (on the hoof) would twist, assuming a good enough fit of course but again padding options though doable would be more limited than in other boots and would alter fit. I'm trying to think if there are any others that something like the tape might work on. It is definitely a known problem so there should be more info out there in the right places. I think part of the trouble is that so many people use boots for fronts only that a lot of the boot design/sizeing is done on that basis (ie rounder hooves). Who are you hiring from atm?
(fwiw I would definitely rather a trail than a cavallo, would back countrys maybe be an option too, they are supposed to help with twisting? but again might be a padding issue)
 
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It can be a bit of a balancing act!

I've just gone back to shoes as I couldn't get on with boots and I needed to get more work into the horse than feet could cope with.

There are a few plastic composite type shoes out there that aim to mimic barefoot that might be worth looking into, many can be glued on. Obviously not without expense and other limitations. FWIW a trimmer I was using said one of her clients used Epona shoes for 4 years and the foot pathology came out of those really well.

I'm trialling EFC pads at the moment, early days, but if it works will be a straightforward solution for me. I'm lucky in that my horse has excellent hoof wall so nailing is a non issue.
 
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If you send the hoof measurements to the experts at The Saddlery Shop they will tell you which type will fit the best. I've only ever purchased hoof boots for welshies and they all seemed to fit Old Macs the best (the expensive ones!). ;)
 
Ester, that is mostly what I'm thinking at the moment. Although she's had the shoes off for a while and her feet should be further down the line than they are, it's only now I've tried using a barefoot trimmer. I do not want to say my farrier wasn't doing a good job, but I think he was more doing a pasture trim and not putting any effort into looking at the hoof properly and trying to improve it. So that's why I agree it would be worth persevering for a bit longer, working with the trimmer who was fab.

It's just a shame it's coincided with being able to work her again, we've taken so many steps backward and gradually worked our way forwards again that I'm so reluctant to halt the progress. I can't tell you what a difference there is in her state of mind.

Wondered about a glove but it seems to say the fit has to be spot on and her back hooves are so bloody awkward! Although if there's an option of taping maybe it could work? Am hiring from Hoof Boutique, Liz has been so, so helpful, I must be driving her bonkers.
 
Ihatework - not heard of Epona shoes, will have a look. I know there are glue on options but I think my bank balance may go into meltdown haha!

tda - I suppose I could try, but she was getting bruised without shoes or boots on the backs before. But could give it another bash.

Hadn't thought of oldmacs, I used to have those for use when poulticing accesses and turning out in the field! I'm getting advice from Liz at hoof bootique who I've given dimensions to and sent photos too. So probably a similar set-up to the saddlery shop.
 
http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/hoofoholic/comfort-pads-in-the-easyboot-glove-back-country

I did a late edit, back countrys seem to be advertised as more resistant to twisting than gloves (because of the back strap, you can put a small pad in them and if you want to convert them to gloves in the future it is easy to do so.

new macs exist now ;) I haven't quite worked out how they are different to the trails, I have say I am not sure on the tread pattern/breakover on them.
 
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im in a similar situation... last year I shod my mare, had to shoe all around in the end as the backs bruised. I took them off in November and the feet look a lot better. however I have to boot to hack as we have loads of stones and she just cannot cope without....
the cavellos fit best but are too slippy on the grass so I cant hack out to the field down the lane.......unless I get on and off to boot up again.
I am look at magners horse runners (sp) but im not sure how they will cope with mud...... but her feet are much better unshod as long as shes not on stoney ground...she went slightly lame by the end of summer last year, vet couldn't find anything specific and said take off shoes, which I was planning to do anyway as they have the winter just walking out hacking. she came sound.
she has an old injury from a yearling where she sliced off half her bulb and frog so that heel is partially missing so the shoes look like they put a lot of pressure on that area and that's possibly what made her lame....
 
We do sound in a similar situation amandaco. Yes, I worry about the grip with the cavallos too. The easy boot trails and back country boots look a similar style to the cavallos, but by all accounts are better and the treads look way better so could be an option for me, and possibly you? Unless you've tried that already.

Thanks for that link ester, it's looking like those will be my next try. And if they don't work, I'm going to resort to crying and resigning the horse to being a very expensive, young field ornament :P Kidding...
 
I haven't tried that... my option was going to be rengades as I don't need pads anymore, so at least I have a bit more flexibility than you have.... but with her odd shaped heel fit could be an issue....
its very hard as I don't want to reshoe- especially given her lameness last year...but she needs working as she had laminitis 3 years ago and I don't want her to get it again!
she also love fun rides, competing etc and many have car parks/ surfaces which cause her issues without boots...its not practical for me to be getting on and off to boot and un-boot depending on what surface we come across...
will look at the ones you mention as I really want to avoid shoes, but need to work her as hard as possible.... lol horses eh!

the horse runners are interesting as they look grippy, easy to use and look like they would budge at all..... but the locking system, im just not sure how they would cope with mud.......
 
ester said:
http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/hoofoholic/comfort-pads-in-the-easyboot-glove-back-country

I did a late edit, back countrys seem to be advertised as more resistant to twisting than gloves (because of the back strap, you can put a small pad in them and if you want to convert them to gloves in the future it is easy to do so.

new macs exist now ;) I haven't quite worked out how they are different to the trails, I have say I am not sure on the tread pattern/breakover on them.
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I used the old style back countrys on Kira behind - she popped the gloves off easily but the back countries stayed put well even on her gigantic boat sized feet! Well worth a go, only thing is they take ages to dry if you get them wet or muddy as there is more fabric than other styles.
 
amandaco2 said:
I haven't tried that... my option was going to be rengades as I don't need pads anymore, so at least I have a bit more flexibility than you have.... but with her odd shaped heel fit could be an issue....
its very hard as I don't want to reshoe- especially given her lameness last year...but she needs working as she had laminitis 3 years ago and I don't want her to get it again!
she also love fun rides, competing etc and many have car parks/ surfaces which cause her issues without boots...its not practical for me to be getting on and off to boot and un-boot depending on what surface we come across...
will look at the ones you mention as I really want to avoid shoes, but need to work her as hard as possible.... lol horses eh!

the horse runners are interesting as they look grippy, easy to use and look like they would budge at all..... but the locking system, im just not sure how they would cope with mud.......
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I would think a lot before using the runners, every horse in their videos strides short, the break over is horrible in all directions and that is before we start on the attachment mechanism. I would shoe before I used them from the evidence provided so far.
 
you can put 6mm pads in renegades. They work fine like that.

I have a horse who is worked daily in hind boots and he twists badly on one hind. The only solution I have found are epics with up buckles. You can put pads in epics. The up buckles allow you to adjust each side separately. He does a couple of hours daily over all surfaces in them and could easily do a day ride in them. Mine will never be able to go barefoot behind and we have been using the epics on them for about 3 years with no problems. They are a very good riding boot and he moves well in them.
 
if you have renegades in front and epics behind you will the best grip available to you. The glove pattern sole is on both the glove, back countries and epics. It is second in line for coping with slippery surfaces after the renegades. Another option would be to consider the floating boots and ask your trimmer to heat treat them to fit your hinds. I considered that before settling on the epics.
 
Renegades in front is not acceptable grip for my horse (or actually any horse I've used them on). He nearly fell last night and they came off twice. Why don't they make the grip pattern the same as a bare foot?!
 
Easycare may be on the case for an even grippier tread: http://www.hoofrehab.com/WhatsNew.html

In the meantime, there's the option of putting quickstuds (or bigger studs) in the boots to improve grip. Not always ideal if you're doing a mix of roadwork and slippery ground, but I have a pair of hind boots with two studs each in the heels, and they do make a difference in boggier ground. I can swap between the studded and a normal pair, depending on where I'm planning to go.

Nobody seems to have mentioned the Scoot boots yet, maybe because they don't look like an obvious candidate for pads. But I managed to successfully glue pads into Renegades in the past (double-sided tape in clean, dry boots), and have tried pads in Scoots as well (stopped using them before optimising that combination). I'd imagine scoots would be pretty twist-resistant because of the heel arches, and I don't see a reason why pads wouldn't stay in, considering the back isn't open but has that vertical thing between the heel bulbs. The grip is pretty good in Scoots too.
When I've experimented with pads in Renegades, Gloves and Scoots I found the medium (black) 12mm Easycare pads to be best, but you have to squish them down first over a few rides. Then they compact enough under the hoof wall not to impact the fit very much, but they remain nice and springy under the centre of the hoof. Best thing would probably be to wear in a pair of pads in the Cavallos, and then use those pads when trialling other boot makes. You could try that method in your Renegades first and see if you get on with glueing them in.
 
If twisting do you not think the heel arches will rub though? I have to say there were a worry point for me when looking at the design.

Interesting that you got 12mm pads in the gloves, I have had 6mm in them post an abscess but think I would have to go up a size for long term use.

OP what pads are you using atm? They definitely aren't all equal, cavallos seem rock hard!
 
FfionWinnie said:
Renegades in front is not acceptable grip for my horse (or actually any horse I've used them on). He nearly fell last night and they came off twice. Why don't they make the grip pattern the same as a bare foot?!
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and yet for mine they produce an equal amount of grip (on grass/mud etc) as shoes without studs do. I use 4 renegades and feel perfectly safe.
I think for some of these horses it is not the grip pattern that is the problem but the horse's ability to learn to slip and slide and to deal with it. That also applies to horses who are barefoot without any boots. These will have problems with grip in any boot. The ones who have learnt to handle themselves I find cope well with even poorer grip boots.
 
paddy555 said:
and yet for mine they produce an equal amount of grip (on grass/mud etc) as shoes without studs do. I use 4 renegades and feel perfectly safe.
I think for some of these horses it is not the grip pattern that is the problem but the horse's ability to learn to slip and slide and to deal with it. That also applies to horses who are barefoot without any boots. These will have problems with grip in any boot. The ones who have learnt to handle themselves I find cope well with even poorer grip boots.
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I agree to a point this horse hasn't learnt to deal with slipping as he is a 17h SJer that's nearly always been on a surface BUT he is definitely better without boots than with and better on mud with shoes than with boots. If they at least stayed on then that would be half the battle. I did wonder about buying scoot boots but haven't looked that much at them yet.
 
I sympathise, OP! My made has enormous round feet. The only boots that are big enough for her are Old Macs and they spin right round. I was beginning to think that I might have to put shoes back on her fronts but since she has been on Prascend her feet have been fine. She is definitely rock crunching now which is a good job as our lane is very stoney! We took her back shoes off 6 yrs ago and never had as problem with them.
 
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At her age op and with the other issues you mentioned I think I would persevere. Once you can ride in the field that will make a big difference. Oh for a crystal ball hey!

MP yes I probably will. I thought about hiring an arena more often while he's transitioning but I also feel he needs to hack to develop correct muscle.

Weather to dry up this week so I suppose I will see how we go. Got a lesson jumping on grass at the start of April so that's something else to worry about!
 
ester said:
If twisting do you not think the heel arches will rub though? I have to say there were a worry point for me when looking at the design.

Interesting that you got 12mm pads in the gloves, I have had 6mm in them post an abscess but think I would have to go up a size for long term use.
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I think the point is that you get rubs when you have movement. If the heel arches manage to keep the boots from moving, I'd expect less potential for rubs. I was also very sceptical of the design when I got the boots, but rode in them for 3 weeks more or less daily, and got no rubs whatsoever (using the small gaiters that come with the boots, and having a newer model scoot with recessed screws). That said, I don't usually have problems with twisting.
From the sound of it, I suspect that the rubs the OP has had may be more down to the pastern lowering on top of the back of the boot though. The Cavallos have a very stiff back part of the boot, so if the pastern is bumping down on the top rim with every step, I can well understand that the horse gets sore (and this would explain why a softer boot like the jogging shoe was less of a problem). I would want to see whether the heel arches interfere with the lowering of the pastern during the stance phase. If they don't, they might be an option.

The 12mm pads squish down to about 2mm under the hoof wall, so they don't really add any height. My Gloves fit the same whether with or without pads, and I've used them either way for many months. It does take a few rides to squish them down though, and when I have to break in a new pad, I tend to stick to a slower ride has the hoof doesn't seat down as well in the shell, and I don't want to fling them off.
IME, the 6mm pads squish down too much, to the point where you only have a super thin layer of material under hoof wall, and that gets worn to shreds on the ribbed inside of the sole in a short amount of time. The 12mm pads last much longer before they get holes.
 
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