Managing lami risk by pulses?

[ycbm]

There's no getting away from it, my Spanish mare is fat. I would prefer her to be a lot thinner, but it would take drastically different management from my more sporty model to do it, and be a pain in the proverbial.

So, I have her in a muzzle overnight and on soaked haylage during the day. On that regime, I can't find a digital pulse at all. Without the muzzle, even on straw during the day, her pulses were very clear.

Is it safe, since they are so obvious, to manage her by her pulses and let her be fatter than I would really like to see? Her crest is soft, and of course the Spanish themselves do tend to keep them fatter than we do British bred horses.

Anyone with experience to share of this type of horse?
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[mustardsmum]

I don’t have a Spanish horse but have a Connie who thinks he is..... As for pulses - I do similar by constant monitoring but I am always trying to get him to drop weight as I know if I can’t faintly see the last 3 ribs - we will be teetering on a laminitic event. So for me weight loss is absolutely critical in keeping my pony sound, hence this year using a muzzle as we struggled to keep the weight off. Any slight pottery steps, not circling sound and faint pulses and I know I am heading for trouble. So in my case, managing by pulses alone wouldn’t work, as by the time you have pulses, you actually have inflammation in the foot. The weight management is also critical.

 

[saalsk]

I know it probably isn't that helpful, but I tend to take weight, crest, pulses, gutter-bum, fat pads etc as a whole, rather than each being a separate sign. I've had them with ribs feelable, no fat, no crests, no gutter, but banging pulses for no obvious reason that I can find, and bloods have been fine. I have had a fat welsh/arab who had the most solid crest, pads, gutter ( she went on holiday for 6 weeks - never again ! ) with no pulses, but a shortened stride suggested some foot discomfort. In the same way that some people are pear shape, and carry pudge on thighs and hips, are meant to be less likely to have health issues than those who carry it is an apple shape, with all the weight around their middle, and their organs. If the regime works, I wouldn't rush to change. Perhaps trying some variations, like out a bit more in the day still with the muzzle on. Sometimes pulses can be the first indicator, sometimes the last. One of my arabs was never overweight - not fed sugar, but was on ad lib food, no crest or fat pads, not footy, but had pulses all the time. 20 years of ownership I stopped having a mini heart attack when I felt them !

 

[holeymoley]

For my guy, pulses for me would indicate that something needs to change, basically if his management was correct and suiting him I wouldn't be expecting to get pulses at all. Personally for mine and in my experience I wouldn't want to rely on pulses. If I was to rely on pulses it's already crossed the stage of not being under proper control if that makes sense at all?

I don't know if I'm getting across what I mean, it's been a bit of a long day in the office and my eyes are a bit fuzzy

 

[Berpisc]

I would go for a similar approach to saalsk; aim to reduce weight as well as using pulse rates as your guide.

 

[GinaGeo]

Unfortunately once you’ve got pulses, you’re already well on the way to them being compromised.

I’m no expert but if memory serves me correctly PRE’s are prone to EMS, because like our native ponies they’ve rather evolved to live off fresh air?

I was in a similar position in that I had two with differing needs and struggling to balance it up. The result was laminitis, and eventually an EMS diagnosis and the result of not being allowed out on grass anymore.

If I’d been stricter from the off it could all have been prevented. Mine is very accepting of his muzzle now, wears it all night, and has it off in the day. Now he’s in full work he can have ad lib access to hay in the day and some nights. When he isn’t work I have to muzzle him over night and triple net a weighed soaked haynet in the day.

I wish for all of our sakes I’d just been stricter in the first place.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

My Connie has a crest due to being gelded late, no gutter bum, no fat pads, is slim, no pulses yet last year he got lamitinits. My EMS pony who has fat pads behind his shoulders, no crest, a swollen sheath if he has grass, a huge belly and pulses has never had laminitis.

Pulses can be very misleading. They like our own blood pressure can be raised or lowered at different times during the day, with heat, exercise, excitement and a multitude of other things so don’t just go on them unless you feel them in all 4 feet at exactly the same time of day, twice a day for comparison and know what is normal for your particular horse.

 

[angrybird1]

You are not supposed to soak haylage as far as I'm aware?
Soaked hay in small holed nets is best.
Can haylage be soaked before feeding?
Soaking haylage is not generally recommended as there is a risk of starting a secondary fermentation which could result in the proliferation of undesirable micro-organisms. The sugar and starch content in correctly made haylage is usually low enough that further reduction should not be necessary for most laminitic horses.
That's from the laminitis site.

 

[EllenJay]

Try to stop EMS occuring - let them get a little heavier in the summer and let them drop weight in the winter - don't keep them the same all seasons. If you can keep their metabolism working you have less risk of laminitis

 

[ycbm]

I've been soaking haylage for years and never had an issue with it. I don't see any difference between soaking haylage and soaking hay. People don't question leaving a big bale of haylage in the middle of a field in the rain for a week while it's eaten, but then question 12 hours overnight soaking.

She definitely cannot manage unsoaked haylage, and soaked is bigger volume and harder to pull out of the net, so it lasts her longer with fewer calories.
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[ycbm]

Try to stop EMS occuring - let them get a little heavier in the summer and let them drop weight in the winter - don't keep them the same all seasons. If you can keep their metabolism working you have less risk of laminitis

I'm a firm believer in this pattern. Nature knows best and I think the weight loss resets a switch. I'm trying to get her to winter and then leave her without a rug to get her weight down to an acceptable point.
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[palo1]

I feel your pain OP. My Welsh mare has been worryingly fat this summer and at only 4, hard work has not been possible. Thankfully I have been able to yard her with another horse and hay during the day and grazing at night - from about 10pm to 6am. That has worked really well and she is now looking 'well' but not worrying. My vet has said that she is not concerned at all about her even though we can still see she is a little too well covered. I would certainly not feed haylage but I guess if that is what you have then that has to be factored in somehow? If you can't feel pulses on the muzzle/haylage regime then that is good. I am considering mixing decent straw with hay over the winter to further reduce my mare's weight. It is a pain tbh as I have another horse that actually benefits from good grass and is usually in quite hard work so I am grateful that I have other horses that can take it in turns to keep the mare company on the yard/winter turnout (weeds!!) Muzzling sounds like a good option but I would still be very dubious about feeding any haylage and would try to avoid that if possible.

 

[ycbm]

My Connie has a crest due to being gelded late, no gutter bum, no fat pads, is slim, no pulses yet last year he got lamitinits. My EMS pony who has fat pads behind his shoulders, no crest, a swollen sheath if he has grass, a huge belly and pulses has never had laminitis.

Pulses can be very misleading. They like our own blood pressure can be raised or lowered at different times during the day, with heat, exercise, excitement and a multitude of other things so don’t just go on them unless you feel them in all 4 feet at exactly the same time of day, twice a day for comparison and know what is normal for your particular horse.

Yes I've worked out what's normal, and I can relate them directly to how I'm feeding her, plus how easily she copes with rough surfaces.
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[angrybird1]

I've been soaking haylage for years and never had an issue with it. I don't see any difference between soaking haylage and soaking hay. People don't question leaving a big bale of haylage in the middle of a field in the rain for a week while it's eaten, but then question 12 hours overnight soaking.

She definitely cannot manage unsoaked haylage, and soaked is bigger volume and harder to pull out of the net, so it lasts her longer with fewer calories.
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Well, it's not recommended. I watched a webinar from world horse wefare the other night. They definitely advise against it. Have a look for the webinar it's very interesting.

 

[Wheels]

With my horses recent lami issues I found that I just couldnt get his weight and the crest down by using haylage. I tried soaking it, I tried a few different brands and his crest remained and he also got wet poos with those 'safe for laminitics' bagged haylages.

I switched to hay and he is much more svelte and I've actually started to increase his intake now which he is very happy about

I started to muzzle and provide some turnout but the muzzle rubbed his chin even within a couple of hours so that particular muzzle will no longer be used.

Back on the hard standing and an hour or so at a time on the crappy winter paddock

 

[GinaGeo]

I’ve remembered my Mickey out of work waistline secret.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it.
But straw. It’s not as palatable, it’s not calorific, but he’s got something to chew.

It was the only thing that got us through last winter with him out of work with an injury ?

 

[saalsk]

I have soaked haylage too, and not had issues, or heard of them being an issue before. I don't leave them long in the water, just enough to make sure there is no dust. Different for hay.

Pulses can be caused by a number of other issues, other than lami, which is why I always take a variety of body shapes, behaviour, care regime etc as a guidance, not just pulses. Knowing your horse, as ycbm does, is a huge bonus - you know what suits, what doesn't, and the early signs.

 

[ycbm]

She been on straw all summer but I can't source wrapped chopped straw in bulk any more and long straw carries a colic risk so I don't want to feed it. It would also be difficult to source and to store and I have four tons of haylage to use up. She's doing great on soaked haylage, I don't see any need to change it.
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[HappyHollyDays]

Haylage can actually have less sugar in it than hay can, it really depends on when the hay was cut. If cut in the heat of the day with blazing sun on it the sugar will be much higher than if it’s cut on a cloudy day.

 

[cobgoblin]

I would have thought freshly soaked haylage that is used immediately was a lot safer than round bales that are soaked with rain and left in the field for feeding... they really do have time for secondary fermentation to set in.

 

[shortstuff99]

For my Spanish, work is really the only thing that will keep the weight off. Strip grazed in the summer and she never gets hard feed but even on that without work she is a porker! As her work is able to increase you will probably find it easier.

 

[Chinchilla]

The problem with bounding pulses is that they can take up to a week to appear (as can heat).

Is there any way you could put both on a track to get the weight off?
The colic risk of long stem straw is actually quite low provided the horses had free access to water and it's not the only thing they are being fed, so could you mix it with the soaked haylage? Or something like TopChop zero I find really good, when my fatties are stabled they get several kilos in a big trug dampened down with salt and magnesium oxide in.

https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2020/05/03/vr.105793.abstract

(I know the above only has a small sample size and you've probably already read it but....)


ETA iirc monosaccharides in grass rises during the day so muzzle would be better off being on during daylight hours, rather than overnight.

 

[SEL]

I've got a track around the field and the one who needs a bit more at this time of year is going on the middle during the day.

The fatty and the pony on steroids are on the track with soaked hay. Pony has feathers so pulses are hard to find. Vet sort of implied pulses would mean she was already inflamed so try to avoid getting to that position and keep her off the grass.

It's hard when they are new to you tho. I'm dreading managing the pony in spring because she's a witch with electric fencing!!

 

[ycbm]

For my Spanish, work is really the only thing that will keep the weight off. Strip grazed in the summer and she never gets hard feed but even on that without work she is a porker! As her work is able to increase you will probably find it easier.

Ah, this is good news and might mean that my impression that even half an hour a day of decent work has an impact is true and not wishful thinking.
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[ycbm]

ETA iirc monosaccharides in grass rises during the day so muzzle would be better off being on during daylight hours, rather than overnight.

She's in from 9 till 6, C.

 

[Lois Lame]

Pulses can be very misleading. They like our own blood pressure can be raised or lowered at different times during the day, with heat, exercise, excitement and a multitude of other things so don’t just go on them unless you feel them in all 4 feet at exactly the same time of day, twice a day for comparison and know what is normal for your particular horse.

Regarding blood pressure, my mum had dialysis 3 times a week in the last 4 years of her life, and she'd arrive in the hospital after her breakfast. Her blood pressure would be lowish due to, she told me, having eaten, so sometimes she would be given something (I can't remember what) for that low blood pressure which wasn't 'really' low blood pressure at all. In fact, she had high blood pressure, as do I, and had medication for it (as do I).

(Does this post of mine make any sense so far?)

Anyhow, eating seems to affect blood pressure, that's all I wanted to mention.

BTW, spring has sprung in my neck of the woods. I'll have to be keeping a keen eye on my fellow because apparently we are in for a warmer and wetter spring than usual.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think work (actual work) really is key. Although I've been able to slack a bit here and there because our grass is so scarce/non existent.

Mine actually does get some "hard feed" but if he weren't in work, I'd have to ditch that. I did put him on Magnesium Oxide when the grass was more lush maybe 2 years or so ago to help with fatty pockets. They're a "fatty" breed in general.

I don't notice a huge difference when he is on haylage vs hay, but I stuck with hay this year. It's also easier to feed him from slow feed hay bags to truly monitor the amount he gets and it takes longer for him to eat.

I'm not sure if I'd manage by pulses. I've never felt any on mine, but by then I might think it too late?

I'd really make sure the work component is there.

I found it took a bit longer for my Spanish horse to get into shape. Fat man in a horse suit I've always said. So while he is a dressage horse, I've mixed in some good cardio and endurance work in the form of gallops and trot sets.

I don't like a Spanish horse too thin and light, but obviously don't want an obese lami risk. I think I've got the balance down though. As long as you're on top of the work/fitness component, it should make things a bit easier.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

There's no getting away from it, my Spanish mare is fat. I would prefer her to be a lot thinner, but it would take drastically different management from my more sporty model to do it, and be a pain in the proverbial.

So, I have her in a muzzle overnight and on soaked haylage during the day. On that regime, I can't find a digital pulse at all. Without the muzzle, even on straw during the day, her pulses were very clear.

Is it safe, since they are so obvious, to manage her by her pulses and let her be fatter than I would really like to see? Her crest is soft, and of course the Spanish themselves do tend to keep them fatter than we do British bred horses.

Anyone with experience to share of this type of horse?
.

My mare has been off for a while and not ridden 7 weeks now, zoom forward and lameness trot up at my vet, trip to RVC shows Mild navicular but sever laminitis. Could not believe it. My boy is risk lami, ( lost his mum to it) my welsh A is lami risk,
So My newish mare over weight (due to no work). ( instructions from vet) I have her weaning on to a laminitis diet and timothy haylage not soaked, so far pulses got navicular supplements and turmeric, turnout no muzzle 9-2pm so far so good no pulses also oat straw to munch on

 

[meleeka]

I have a cob like this and to a certain extent I manage him by pulses. The trouble is if you are forever teetering on the edge of laminitis, is very easy to slip. Mine have a mostly bare track in the summer. I find it increases movement massively. My boy is fatter than I’d like but I need to balance that with quality of life. I strip graze the middle section, but his pulses tell me if I should move the fence or not. We’ve had a flush of grass here so the fence hasn’t been moved for a week now. I feed dry hay in small holed nets. I cannot stand soaking so it would be a last resort for me. My boy is 22 now and touchwood has never actually had laminitis.
if you can increase exercise, it’s probably the single best thing you can do to prevent laminitis imo. Not only will it help with weight loss but I think lack of exercise is the biggest factor in whether a fat horse gets laminitis or not.

 

[RHM]

My pony has EMS and has had to lose weight. What worked for us was:
-ditching all rugs
-24/7 turnout in winter and then restricted grazing in a trash paddock in summer
-feeding a mixture of straw and haylage (I use topspec straw just because that’s the only thing I can get hold of but it does have soya oil on which isn’t ideal. I believe honey chop do a better alternative) at the hight of his illness I used soaked hay and straw which is better for getting weight off.
-exercise! I read a clinical paper comparing exercise to the use of metformin and they had very similar efficacy in regulating insulin. They suggested exercising right before you turn out to grass. I think the paper is on the laminitis site if you want a read of it.
I also don’t really use pulses as an indicator, as my vet suggested that if they are up then inflammation is already present. I check them everyday and if they are ever raised he gets a couple days in off the grass.