Mark Todd - what would you have done?

[cauda equina]

I guess a lot of it comes down to knowing your horse/the horse in front of you

Which of course you don't as a person taking a one-off clinic, although someone like MT probably has seen enough over the years to be a pretty good judge

 

[HorseMaid]

With regards to just giving a horse a slap that is titting about, I have done this. A few years ago my friends mare went through a phase of napping on hacks, not wanting to take the lead, where previously she had been fine, she really was just trying it on. We had tried the usual methods of waiting it out etc but the behaviour was getting worse so one day I took my friends stick and gave the mare a whack on her arse when she started to do it. It gave her a shock and do you know what she has never done it since! I am not advocating for a second that beating horses is OK, I am a soft rider/owner, I haven't carried a stick for years, ride in a snaffle, no spurs, gently gently everything. But even I can see that there is the odd occasion where a good smack on the bum just does the trick.

Was that appropriate in MT situation? I don't know. I've had a trainer go after my horse with a length of blue pipe during a jumping lesson. I left, it was totally my crap riding that was the issue and nothing to do with the horse!

 

[Shilasdair]

I'd do it too. I feel terribly sorry for horses on box rest - but that's off topic, opening a can of worms, and talking about something that I've never had to deal with because I've not been in that situation of having a horse whose injury was so bad as to require box rest.

She was on box rest following colic surgery.
They aren't in much pain (don't even need bute) but they do need to keep their wound closed until it heals so are usually on box rest for 6 weeks or so.
She had the surgery as a 5 year old, and has had a great life (she really enjoys living to the full) for the past 12 years.

 

[charlotte0916]

I think most of the suggestions listed above would have been an advisable alternative to the route MT did take. I do wonder if horses yelped etc in the way dogs do if it would make ‘methods’ like MT used less acceptable?

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

I wouldn't have found myself in that situation because I'd have worked on it at home till we were good enough at it to be trying to do it in public. I'd have done it through groundwork first before getting on and getting a lead through from a confident horse. I don't think what he did is acceptable, I don't train my horses by hitting them till they give in and do whatever it is I want them to, mainly because I want them to be happy and confident to do what I'm asking.
I'm not against giving them a smack when needed, like this morning putting my youngster out, yesterday on the way to the field he got to stand and eat the very nice fresh grass while I was chatting to someone, today he stopped in the exact same spot to repeat this, it was like trying to drag a tantruming toddler past the sweet aisle in the shop. He wasn't scared or worried he just wouldn't move and stamped his foot, obviously I asked him nicely first and he knows full well how to behave so he got a flick on the bum with the end of the rope to remind him and we set off again perfectly happily, he wasn't traumatized or scared of me, when I let him go he still hung around for me to scratch his neck.

If he's genuinely scared of something we break it down to smaller steps and take all the time he needs to gradually work up to the scary thing not being scary anymore. Sometimes I get my old pony to do the scary thing while he watches and he really watches him and concentrates and then goes ohh yeah I get it now that's easy.

 

[Gloi]

A tale from my youth.
I was on a long ride out with a couple of friends and we were on the home stretch. We came to a stream crossing and unfortunately the crossing had been damaged by floods leaving the only way to cross was a jump down into the muddy stream. All the ponies went 'no chance'. We all tried kicking and smacking them and got off trying to lead them through, but no joy. We were worried we would be caught out in the dark. While I was in the stream trying to persuade mine to come in the others got behind him and pushed him over the edge with their ponies shoulders into his bum. Once he was in the water the others decided it wasn't so bad after all and we got home.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

If I was him I would like to think I would have left it on a good note, when the horse confidently went down the small drop. Not everything can be solved in a clinic, giving the rider some tools to go home with and work on it would have been more beneficial.

This.


My sister took my horse to an xc clinic. They were jumping up onto a platform and then jumping off it. He jumped up fine but wouldnt jump down.

A few smacks on the bum and he still wouldn't go down. Refused with a lead as well.

So my sister got off, reins over his head and jumped down her self and he followed her.

We had done loads of ground work before he went off to be backed so we know he would follow on the ground.
She went up and down a few times on the ground with him, he gained in confidence and the she got on and they went to another part of the course. No stress and no going over and over until if became an issue as we did not make it one.

If i knew he had previous problems with this before it would a stop at the small one and advise the owner to hire out couses take wellies and a lunge line and go play with them on the ground in and out up and down. Then get on with someone on the ground doing it etc.
Make it a non issue.

 

[Winters100]

To me the problem is based in what people think clinics and one day training days are for. I see them as not to get results with the horse, but to identify areas for improvement and to be taught the skills needed to go home and work on them. I just don't think that chasing a horse with a whip or branch teaches anything. All that was learned was that the horse will jump if being chased in, so a bit pointless really.

 

[scruffyponies]

The question then becomes, at what point do you decree a horse as being a ‘tit’ and the behaviour they’re performing as having a ‘genuine’ reason?

(Genuine question as I don’t tend to see much variation in the two types of horses’ body language)

This is where experience and judgement come in. I don't have Cortez's experience, but have tackled enough problem horses to know that some go straight in with a well timed tap, where for others it's hugely counterproductive, making them shut down or worse. It's always about the horse in front of you.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The question then becomes, at what point do you decree a horse as being a ‘tit’ and the behaviour they’re performing as having a ‘genuine’ reason?

(Genuine question as I don’t tend to see much variation in the two types of horses’ body language)

This is where experience and judgement come in. I don't have Cortez's experience, but have tackled enough problem horses to know that some go straight in with a well timed tap, where for others it's hugely counterproductive, making them shut down or worse. It's always about the horse in front of you.

Thankyou scruffyponies, saved me a bit of keyboard work. I was just about to type my response but you have answered perfectly, almost word for word with my own opinion. ?

 

[Velcrobum]

In H&H
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...o-give-fuller-picture-of-viral-footage-777863
Looks like there is more to this episode. I wonder why the rider posted the clip 2 yers later.

 

[sbloom]

In H&H
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...o-give-fuller-picture-of-viral-footage-777863
Looks like there is more to this episode. I wonder why the rider posted the clip 2 yers later.

To be fair most of that could be seen in the longer of the videos. People report all sorts of things well after the event for all sorts of reasons, fair and foul.

 

[Birker2020]

I am in no way condoning beating horses here, I am interested in differing methods and their results.

All the people who are slating Mark Todd here, how would you have got the horse to jump in?

The horse, presumably, had refused the step previous to the video, hence being asked to go through and over the easier options and Mark being prepared ( with the branch) for a stop at the bigger drop.

On the day, he got the horse to jump in. Everyone there was happy at the time, cheering etc.

How would other people have approached the situation? Bearing in mind this is a xc clinic and time probably limited.

I don't condone people 'hitting' horses, i.e over and over again but I admit quite openly that I will smack my horse (not hundreds of times across the head' which I was accused of on this forum. Amazing how these people know these things when they have never visited the yard or met me or my horse. Stupid.

If you have to hit a horse with a branch then maybe once or twice but not ten times but to be honest a whip used once would have been preferable.

I'd love to know how the same people on this forum that say "you can't smack horses" would go on with my horse who is persistent in his attempts to bite me when handling him.

I have another bruise to add to the collection after doing ground work with him yesterday.

The full length video shows the horse going in and out of the water quite happily when there was no drop down but as soon as the drop down was introduced he stopped. Quite understandable. In that situation I would possibly have given him the benefit of the doubt, asked someone to go first and let me follow them in and then if the horse had refused a second time followed up my natural aids with a light tap with the whip.

 

[Velcrobum]

I have not seen the longer videos and would not know were to look. I saw the article and felt it added a bit more overview on this subject as the discussion has polarised!

 

[I'm Dun]

I have not seen the longer videos and would not know were to look. I saw the article and felt it added a bit more overview on this subject as the discussion has polarised!

It doesnt really add anything though, the video shows MT belting a horse ten times with a branch, hard enough for it to be audible on the video. Anyone else report is just their recollection of events. It doesnt matter who posted it and when, and whether she is an awful person or not. None of that changes what he did.

 

[I'm Dun]

I'd love to know how the same people on this forum that say "you can't smack horses" would go on with my horse who is persistent in his attempts to bite me when handling him.

I have another bruise to add to the collection after doing ground work with him yesterday.

If you have been smacking him routinely since you got him and hes still biting then it not working though is it?

 

[stangs]

I'd love to know how the same people on this forum that say "you can't smack horses" would go on with my horse who is persistent in his attempts to bite me when handling him.

I have another bruise to add to the collection after doing ground work with him yesterday.

Depends on why he's biting. Are you feeding treats without clear boundaries, feeding them close to your body? Does he understand when he's receiving them - do you use a bridge such as a clicker if you use R+? Does he have food anxiety? Is he getting frustrated with the work? Is it a clear signal that he's unhappy with what you're asking him to do? Does he understand what you're asking him? Is he simply a horse who needs to fiddle with his mouth and therefore nibbles on you? Is it discomfort in his mouth? Have you unconsciously been reinforcing the biting with your own behaviour?

Behaviour doesn't exist in a vacuum. The same behaviour could have hundreds of different training solutions, depending on what emotions are causing it in that individual cause. No one - regardless of whether they support hitting horses or not - should ever give advice on training without some context.

 

[Red-1]

it?

So what is the clinician to do in this instance? Say, "Look, you are not really suited to this?"

Lucinda Green did just this at a clinic I was on. It was indoor XC skills and the horse was all over the show. She started helping but it was to the detriment of the rest of us so, when it became apparent that the horse was not going to progress with the rest of us, she asked the owner to take it out.

I am not anti smacking per-se. Mine got a smack with a schooling whip yesterday when he was a ninny on a windy bin day and decided to spin and trot off. He was quickly turned round, told to go forward. He refused (initially), had a smack, learned that I set a boundary. He went past all the bins, but I still wasn't happy with his demeanour, so we did the ride again. That time he was polite and thoughtful.

I don't usually go 'introducing' horses to everything we meet, instead we learn that safety is in following instructions, as in, I will keep him safe from the bogeyman. However, on the way home, I did introduce him to our bin. Within a minute I could open and slam the lid and also drag it along the road with us. This was because the horse had found peace with me being in charge. He was not scared of me, or the bin.

HOWEVER, I do think what MT did was wrong. Using a schooling whip, as a rider, to back up an ignored leg aid is acceptable. They are big animals and need to be obedient to stay safe on the main road. The get security from consistency. I am consistent with backing up an ignored aid, although it was a surprise this time for baby horse yesterday as he is growing up and it was his fist refusal, so to speak. Coming up behind a horse and whacking it with a branch is not the same at all. For a start, I would fear that MT was teaching the horse to be wary of pedestrians. It wasn't teaching the horse to follow the rider's commands. It was teaching the horse to not go near water too, if it was repeated a few times, as in, every time I go near water, someone comes and whacks me.

What would I have done? Well, having a lead is one thing, moving the horses so the horse was going towards his mates is another, but I would have focused more on having the horse off the rider's leg before they even got to the fence.

As the longer video went on, the horse got more behind the leg and strung out. IMO, the rider had lost control before she even got there. I would have done some quick fire transitions, backed up with a schooling whip, before even going to the fence. Once the horse was in no doubt he had to GO when a leg was applied, then I believe the outcome would have been more positive, and the nasty whip would have been used nowhere near the water, so that wouldn't be part of it. As the horse would have had no negative connotations with being asked to go forward in a field, the nasty whip would probably only have needed a flick or two to get the point across so the horse was off the leg.

Teaching this at the water was too much. Two lessons at once. And no lesson at all by a pedestrian attaching the horse.

 

[ycbm]

I haven't read the whole threads on this business. In one way, I don't see how we can have an opinion on what should have been done or what could have been done because we don't know everything there is to know about that day.

I think we're all able to say that smacking a reluctant horse on the backside ten times with a branch to get it to jump into water away from its colleagues is wrong in any context, aren't we?

Don't you feel you can say that much? I'd be interested to hear your reasons if not.
.

 

[Shilasdair]

I have just realised what the Mark Todd video reminded me of - not as funny, but about as productive.

Basil Fawlty

 

[Birker2020]

Depends on why he's biting. Are you feeding treats without clear boundaries, feeding them close to your body? Does he understand when he's receiving them - do you use a bridge such as a clicker if you use R+? Does he have food anxiety? Is he getting frustrated with the work? Is it a clear signal that he's unhappy with what you're asking him to do? Does he understand what you're asking him? Is he simply a horse who needs to fiddle with his mouth and therefore nibbles on you? Is it discomfort in his mouth? Have you unconsciously been reinforcing the biting with your own behaviour?

Behaviour doesn't exist in a vacuum. The same behaviour could have hundreds of different training solutions, depending on what emotions are causing it in that individual cause. No one - regardless of whether they support hitting horses or not - should ever give advice on training without some context.

Fair point. He is frustrated with the work, which is ground work. He finds if very easy (raised poles and walking backwards with head down between parallel poles) Also stretching exercises. He understands what I want to do yes. He has a reward for doing a round of poles for example. But then when we walk to the start point to do the poles again on the way he will nip me. I don't mind him taking the lunge line or lead rope in his mouth, this is a comfort blanket for him and I understand that but I won't tolerated being nipped or bitten. It is not necessary and he doesn't understand that its a big no no in my eyes. He gets lots of praise when he does a row of poles without knocking them, but that alone is not enough to motivate him. He is food motivated which is why its been really helpful for getting him to do the ground work exercises.

Last night (on someone's suggestion) I had the hoof brush in my hand (the type with bristles) with the bristles upper most and when he tried to nip me (as I did up his breast strap on his rug) his mouth met the bristle bit of the brush. He was taken aback. He tried another time when I led him back from the horse walker and his nose touched the bristles on the brush and he pulled his head away from me. I wasn't trying to jab it in his nose (before anyone suggests it), its just merely in my hand so he ends up catching his nose on it when he tries to bite my hand.

Later on as I stood in the doorway talking to someone he had my coat in his mouth and tried to bite through the fabric. I lifted my hand with the bristles uppermost and he backed off straight away and kind of looked at me out of the corner of his eye as if to say "she means business this time".

I am hoping another two or three repetitions and he might have got the message after months of bites and bruises and crushed fingers. Having never had any of my horses treat me like this, its been a bit of a learning curve and something that I've found difficult to deal with, especially with some of the comments on this forum.

Its especially hard because Bailey could have had one of her legs severed and yet she'd still not have bitten me, she was the most gentlest horses I've ever known. And such a kind soul.

I know Lari isn't 'nasty' but he is obviously frustrated. He is a lovely horse, full of charachter and has us all laughing at his antics, including sucking everything, pulling everything out of mangers and sticking his tongue out when you tell him off.

 

[bubsqueaks]

At the end of the day whether you would or wouldnt smack your horse, these clinics with the best in the world professionals are blooming expensive & tbh if that's the only solution he could have offered to the issue I would have left the clinic - its one thing for your friend to use that ploy but another entirely for a professional of his standing for whom's coaching you have paid top dollar!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

He has a reward for doing a round of poles for example.

Is the reward you give food of some sort Birker2020? I only ask because I have never used food as a reward for a single horse for many decades now.

I got caught in that trap with a young cob back in the day, the use of food reward turned him into a nippy nightmare and it took me a good year to cure him completely of my own over indulgence with food treats durng training that created a nippy monster! I am not in any way criticizing how you train your horse, or how others do, just admitting how I found myself dealing with my own similar self made issue with a youngster. Regrettably there was many a well aimed elbow in the chest or neck until he got the message!

Praise for work done well these days is only ever a quick neck scratch and whispered 'well done' or similar. I do feed treats but never work related. For instance I have a bag of old carrots and some apple cores that I will go into the field later today and feed equally among my mare and the donkeys. There will not be any nipping or squabbling, they all stand quietly in front of me taking turns to get their portion. As soon as I say that's it and wave the empty bag in the air and then shove it in my pocket, they know special treat time is over.

 

[Birker2020]

Is the reward you give food of some sort Birker2020? I only ask because I have never used food as a reward for a single horse for many decades now.

I got caught in that trap with a young cob back in the day, the use of food reward turned him into a nippy nightmare and it took me a good year to cure him completely of my own over indulgence with food treats durng training that created a nippy monster! I am not in any way criticizing how you train your horse, or how others do, just admitting how I found myself dealing with my own similar self made issue with a youngster. Regrettably there was many a well aimed elbow in the chest or neck until he got the message!

Praise for work done well these days is only ever a quick neck scratch and whispered 'well done' or similar. I do feed treats but never work related. For instance I have a bag of old carrots and some apple cores that I will go into the field later today and feed equally among my mare and the donkeys. There will not be any nipping or squabbling, they all stand quietly in front of me taking turns to get their portion. As soon as I say that's it and wave the empty bag in the air and then shove it in my pocket, they know special treat time is over.

Hi Mrs Jingle, yes it is.

But I don't get how you can get a horse to do stretches which at first would have been uncomfortable for it without something tangible like a treat. Why would it put in maximum effort for minimum gain. What would it be stretching its neck around its body or under its tummy for. I'm not saying you are wrong but I just don't understand....

For me, I just see not treating as a massive stumbling block in asking my horse to do something like ground work. I don't think a quick pat or scratch of the neck quite hits the mustard so to speak.

 

[Shilasdair]

Not sure what's happening with this post- it's gone haywire.

Just saying that not all horses are motivated by treats - one of mine is a piglet so treats are key, but for the other voice praise is what matters. They are all different.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

As I said I am not criticising at all, just sharing my own experience. I can fully understand that using treats does work and it can work very quickly. I had often used them in the past until I experienced how very wrong it could go with some horses, and in particular that one young cob.

I think doing stretches and so on without treats is harder to achieve and does take more time and patience, but it can be done with most horse (well all in my own small sphere of ownership anyway). I think body language from both the horse and the trainer is very, very important and you have to be able to read the horse you are working with pretty well for any successful outcome. But then it is easy for me to say as I have never been professionally engaged with producing and training horses for my living, purely an enjoyable sideline hobby producing, or just training my own riding horses.

For instance, going back to the stretches, I would use a lot of voice, tone, inflection etc. gentle tap to area I want horse to stretch to, reward again with tone and inflection and small scratch at chosen area etc. Some do not appreciate the scratch to the area pointed to and in that instance I would need to be right on the ball to scratch their favourite place almost instantly they comply with the request (wither, mane area etc.)

My old mare well still do a pretty good flex any place you ask for just a firm scratch right along her belly line, she is an SI horse so I guess that area would be a favourite reward scratch lol!

Interesting though, I wonder if I might experiment a bit with both giving treats and not giving treats when I eventually get fit enough to ride and buy a nice new horse to play with. Mind you the first sign of a nip and the treating will be abandoned pretty damn quick!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Not sure what's happening with this post- it's gone haywire.

What do you mean Shilasdair? As in it has gone off topic? Not really sure it has, all posts seem to be training related and what some people do and don't consider OK methods to use? I'm finding it interesting anyway, but then my bar for interesting things to read is pretty low right now! ?‍

 

[Shilasdair]

What do you mean Shilasdair? As in it has gone off topic? Not really sure it has, all posts seem to be training related and what some people do and don't consider OK methods to use? I'm finding it interesting anyway, but then my bar for interesting things to read is pretty low right now! ?‍

No, I meant my post, not the thread.
It started quoting randoms - but I deleted it so maybe it looks ok now.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

No, I meant my post, not the thread.
It started quoting randoms - but I deleted it so maybe it looks ok now.

?? Sorry I didnt understand what you meant as yes, your post looks perfectly ok from my end. I think I might need putting out to grass or just ask the vet to quietly put me out of my misery, I am just SO slow on the uptake this past week or so!