Martin Clueless

patterdale said:
Fburton, using your logic I could compare eventing and dog agility to bullfighting.
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For sure! However, one difference between eventing and dog agility on one side and bullfighting and rodeo on the other is the way the animals are treated. In eventing and dog agility they are considered partners; in bullfighting and rodeo they are adversaries. One emphasizes cooperation; the other conflict and subjugation. One encourages empathy for/with the animal; the other discourages it, lest the treatment meted out is considered too rough or brutal. That is quite an important difference, in my opinion.

I freely admit I am as much a product of my culture as they are of theirs (although not every American or Brit approves wholeheartedly of rodeo, or Spaniard of bullfighting).
 
fburton said:
I freely admit I am as much a product of my culture as they are of theirs (although not every American or Brit approves wholeheartedly of rodeo, or Spaniard of bullfighting).
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Nor every Brit approves of eventing, racing or even riding - the opinions of the few don't necessarily dictate morality. I have never watched rodeo riding and felt that the horse was an "adversary", more of a fellow performer. It's just a perspective thing I guess.
 
For what it's worth, OP, I agree with you. MC really grates on me, these days. He's practically up Monty Roberts' arse, too. Seems to agree with everything and everyone. I'd have more respect for someone who respectfully aired their views and agreed to differ. That's completely aside to my views on rodeo, too.
 
AengusOg said:
It was sharp spurs, cruel bits, and the determination, greed, and killer instincts of men which caused horses to charge into battle and lose their lives in such numbers over the centuries...
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I ride my horse in battle re-enactments - ok, so there's no actual shot flying around but my horse doesn't know the difference. With muskets, rifles and cannons going off all over the field it's still an amazing visual and aural experience. I don't ride in sharp spurs or a cruel bit (I use the same as I would use in the show ring). My horse goes into battle (albeit simulated) because I ask him to and he trusts me. Herd instinct plays a role in it too and if you can get one horse to go forward, the rest will usually follow.
 
JFTD said:
Nor every Brit approves of eventing, racing or even riding - the opinions of the few don't necessarily dictate morality.
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Yeah, just making the point that belonging to a "culture" doesn't mean everyone has the same views (thank goodness).

I have never watched rodeo riding and felt that the horse was an "adversary", more of a fellow performer. It's just a perspective thing I guess.
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I guess so. Bronc riding sits somewhere between barrel racing, which isn't adversarial at all - obviously there's a real partnership there, and interestingly the competitors are, as a rule, women - and something like the Wild Horse Race where I doubt you would describe the poor horses used merely as "fellow performers". Still, it seems to me that most of the events in rodeo are about men showing that they can prevail against animals through skill, if not physically subduing them as quickly as possibly then symbolically by staying atop for a set time. And they are treated roughly, even cruelly at times, despite there being an interest in keeping them healthy and 'keen' to buck, and avoiding injuries that would prevent them from performing.
 
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Herpesas said:
I ride my horse in battle re-enactments - ok, so there's no actual shot flying around but my horse doesn't know the difference. With muskets, rifles and cannons going off all over the field it's still an amazing visual and aural experience. I don't ride in sharp spurs or a cruel bit (I use the same as I would use in the show ring). My horse goes into battle (albeit simulated) because I ask him to and he trusts me. Herd instinct plays a role in it too and if you can get one horse to go forward, the rest will usually follow.
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It sounds like tremendous fun! Do the explosions make a smell like cap guns? I used to love that smell... :)
 
Pretty much FBurton!! I also love the smell - that and the smell of the wood smoke from the living history camps!

It is tremendous fun - best way to spend a bank holiday weekend!!
 
Herpesas said:
I ride my horse in battle re-enactments - ok, so there's no actual shot flying around but my horse doesn't know the difference. With muskets, rifles and cannons going off all over the field it's still an amazing visual and aural experience. I don't ride in sharp spurs or a cruel bit (I use the same as I would use in the show ring). My horse goes into battle (albeit simulated) because I ask him to and he trusts me. Herd instinct plays a role in it too and if you can get one horse to go forward, the rest will usually follow.
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That sounds utterly awesome. I've always fancied battle re-enactments!
 
My friend trains horses for film and historical demonstrations, and some re-enactments as well, and it is as real as possible (without the actual death, obvs). No sharp spurs or cruel bits, and the horses totally get into the whole thing. They are also literally bombproof!
 
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I hope this works - sorry a bit of a novice at uploading photos! This should be me and Hoss at Glynde House near Lewes, last weekend!
 
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Strange you should say that attheponies, Hoss is fine in Napoleonic battles but the Sealed Knot only have to form up within a 1/2 mile radius of him and he'll poop his pants!! :D:D
 
I really enjoyed the show when it was on. I'm with JFTD and co on this.

I'd be interested to know how many of the 'rodeo bashers' have actually been to a rodeo and have first hand experience and how many are just basing their knowledge off the videos on Youtube. Over half the eventing/sj vids on there are off horses and riders falling and would probably make the sport look horrific to an outsider....Infact i'd say half of the videos of people riding in general are.

Think about how dressage would look to a western rider who has no experience of the sport....Horses heads being pulled in to position, tight contact on their mouths, being asked to perform 'unnatural' movements and paces for 'entertainment'....

b) asking an animal to respond when it has been trained to understand what is being asked (eventing, dog agility)
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Eventers are trained to jump and perform dressage movements, Racers are trained to run, Trick horses are trained to go off voice commands, Cutters are trained to work with cows, Reiners are trained to perform patterns (I actually know a couple of QHs that do sliding stops naturally), Barrel racers are trained to know the pattern....And BRONCS are TRAINED to BRONC...they arent just random horses, thats their job.

I'd actually say rodeos have more 'practical' value to them than the common disipinces over here...except driving and endurance...as it's about them showing off the skills a rancher uses in day to day life.

I have the equine osteo coming this morning, so I'm feeling quite conscious of what is being inflicted on necks, spines etc when I watch rodeo vids on Youtube.
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What about whats inflicted on a race horses legs? or a hunters?

I'm not saying that some rodeo horses aren't mistreated and there are some cruel practices in place...but you can't tar them all with the same brush...It's like saying all shows/races/SJ/eventing/dressage etc are cruel as theres cruelty going on behind the scenes in some yards.

Right I'm off back under my rock.

On a side note....My family were at Glynde at the weekend. My sister rides in the SK cavalry.
 
AengusOg said:
Just who is he aiming at?

Does he not realise the cruelty involved in bronc riding. The broncing horse was bad enough, but the roping horse moving backward and dragging the calf caused my 9yr old son to burst into tears and become almost inconsolable after seeing the cowboys demonstrating their manliness and prowess in the calf-roping competition. Clueless looked on grinning in admiration. It seems all it takes is a tight cinch and an egotistical rider to make a horse a star, according to him. 'Naughty horses getting rewarded', he reckons. How convenient.

Clueless, with that inane grin on his face, said to the rodeo rider that bucking horses in Britain would be sold on and lies told about them never having done that before. It goes on, I know, but he almost made it sound acceptable, FGS!

And then standing there agreeing with the trainer of the knight-carrying horse that it was trust which facilitated horses carrying fighting men into battle, blah, blah blah. It was sharp spurs, cruel bits, and the determination, greed, and killer instincts of men which caused horses to charge into battle and lose their lives in such numbers over the centuries...

...and did anyone notice the way he dumped his bulk into the saddle on that little Kazahk horse? It must have been all of 12 hh. He grinned his way through that as well.

Clueless just laughs and agrees with everything. Is he really the best person for the face of the BHS? Nice but dim, would he not be better to be less subjective and more compassionate in his approach, or should I not be watching?
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I must ask him about this..........as the trainer is my mate other half...........As for the calf roping.......they were not slamming them into the ground, and nor was the claf being jerked back so hard it was flying in the air like some I have seen. Its a skill that the riders NEED to know. They have to practise some how.
 
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I've been told that the cavalry used to give their horses their hard feed at mid day when a cannon was fired, so they looked forward to the sound of the guns. I wonder if they still do that?
 
I'm not sure - would be interesting to find out! My horse gets hard feed after the battles - perhaps that's where I'm going wrong, he's trying to get it over and done with so he can go back for his tea!

He has also decided the groom's door on the lorry distributes apples! :D:D
 
I recently sold a pony to a purchaser who was worried it might be upset by regular shooting parties.No problem! I just taught them all to come for their hard feed to the sound of a shot, then repeatedly fired a blank pistol while they had their heads in their feed bowls. Didn't take long for them to ignore it -- but then they ARE Highlands and not much will stop them from eating!:D
 
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