Martin Clunes: Heavy Horse Power

Montyforever said:
Does make me laugh! Horses of that size and build will be incredibly dangerous and impossible to work with if they're left until 4/5 years old! They need to have manners and know what is expected of them when they are that size and need to be 100% safe even if that means they have to get used to a JR chasing them.

Say if mc's clysdale had never come across a dog before and mc was driving it along a road and a dog jumped out and started chasing the horse, the horse might bolt and seriously injure or even kill itself, mc and possibly other people too.

You can't take chances with any horse that size especially if they are driven!!!!
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Yes - but one thing at a time. Though there may be those who cast doubts here - I reckon that I'm a sort of reasonably inteligent human, in that you can tell me something is likely to happen and I'll have a pretty good appreciation of what you're talking about but amazingly despite the army knowing this - they did NOT take me up to 12,000ft and throw me out of an aeroplane on the day I joined. There's a build up.

I can't be sure of what others propose to do as their youngsters grow but I certainly wouldn't be leaving them in a field till four or five unhandled - there's a lot of preparatory work that could be done - including getting used to dogs but not all at the same time.

Your use of the word "manners" fills me with dread as I've had experience of people who used it before - how big are your sticks?
 
I really enjoyed it, I totally agree that horses that size need to learn things at an early age before they become too big and strong.

I have to agree that some bits made me cringe, with the dog and then with the stallion but that's life. Things arn't always done well and the guy was very good with them I thought.

My favourite bit was the Budweiser cyldedales, gorgeous!
 
I really enjoyed this, not knowing much about the heavies. My only disappointment (and I know it's stupid) is that there was no sign of the gorgeous Chester around :o;)

Loved the admission of the driving ban too..
 
1stclassalan - the only "stick" I own is a lunge whip which I don't even need to use as my mare goes off voice commands when lunging, something she's been taught to do (without me ever hitting her I'll add!) My mare has also gone from barely handled and bargey to perfect to lead without me EVER hitting her. I never mentioned using a whip in my post, and I would only ever use one in a situation where the horse was acting very dangerously to itself or me.

I love how you assume I beat horses because I like them to have manners, I use positive reinforcement not negative.
 
Oh and having had my shoulder pulled out of the joint by a cob youngster with no manners who isn't even half the the size of some of those heavy horses, manners are something I feel strongly about!
 
I have to admit that this thread has given me a bit of a chuckle.

I won't call anyone an idiot or use any such derogatory terms, but, seriously..I am amazed at the amount of opinions being thrown around here.

To form any kind of opinion on any programme that had been edited is almost a complete waste of energy and time at the keyboard. None of us on here as far as I have read in this thread were involved in the making of this programme...I mean, directly involved in this programme.

You can have theories about how it was made, but forming opinions on unknown variables is nothing more than wasteful. We simply don't know what else was done previously.

Is it good to question? Yes....but to judge harshly without facts is just a little bit silly.

I enjoyed the programme for what it was and I have also learnt over the years that the approach of judgement and condemnation is never ever good for the animals you care about. Much better to be open and supportive in trying to teach a better way where you might help those animals, than offend the owners and lose a chance to make a difference.

Good on MC for highlighting such wonderful breeds and opening our eyes the world around us.

I would also say, somebody mentioned the Amish seemed a little less welcoming....well, they are. They are wonderful people, but are extremely private and I was amazed that they allowed the filming in the first place, so it probably was all a bit tense.
 
_GG_ said:
I would also say, somebody mentioned the Amish seemed a little less welcoming....well, they are. They are wonderful people, but are extremely private and I was amazed that they allowed the filming in the first place, so it probably was all a bit tense.
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That said, I thought they were quite welcoming, considering they're private generally.
 
_GG_ said:
Me too...lovely to get an insight into their lives :-)
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I find their lifestyle fascinating- I loved how they were maintaining that lifestyel, but from their yard you could see a massive highway- like the meeting of old and new :) Good to see them filmed in light of their horse skills, rather than studied as a almost freak show, like they usually are :)
 
horsesatemymoney said:
I find their lifestyle fascinating- I loved how they were maintaining that lifestyel, but from their yard you could see a massive highway- like the meeting of old and new :) Good to see them filmed in light of their horse skills, rather than studied as a almost freak show, like they usually are :)
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I just think it is amazing to see the old traditions held to so steadfastly.

I always have youngsters asking me what I am doing when I am strapping my horses or hot towelling them. They are techniques that they have never even heard about. I always get comments on how good my horses look, but it is because I use the old fashioned time and elbow grease methods. I reckon we could learn a lot from the Amish...and not just when it comes to horses.

I won't judge the horses hooves as I didn't see one footsore or unsound looking horse and they don't do roadwork or dressage or jumping. They work the fields, it is different and something I know very little about, so perhaps their feet are the way the individual horse is balanced for that type of work?
 
ribbons said:
Just finished watching this fantastic programme and thought let's have a look at the experts criticising the methods on HHO.
Sure enough here they all are.
That man is a genius, he has forgotten more about horses than most here will ever know.
The stallion episode happened because Martin had the reins, the stallion recognised his inexperience and took advantage, Robert immediately took control and the stallion returned to obedience.
The dog running around you are all condemning, when that horse is working properly with heavy dangerous machinery harnessed to it, and some idiots dog gets loose and bounds over yapping that horse will not bat an eyelid.
What an absolute pleasure to watch a real horseman at work. Total respect for his horses, complete understanding of controlling them.
What a load of rubbish spouted by people who haven't got the faintest idea what they are talking about.
A little more learning real horsemanship from people like Robert would lead to a lot less posts here about, "help, my horse is rude, bargy, pushy strong etc etc etc.
That man will never ruin or spoil a young horse. Which is more than can be said for a great number of people who post here.
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This!

I've just watched it and had HHO open on the side seeing what comments people have had about whats going on... Perhaps if more people took the attitude shown on this program there would be far less horses branded as dangerous and un-rideable! I think its so nice to see horses doing a real job, what they were bred to do. It really gets my goat when people buy a horse and do naf all with it and wonder why it misbehaves, such a waste.

As for the stallion 'crash':rolleyes: and the dog - what did the stallion actually DO? Got a bit lippy... But he didnt actually do anything! And the dog - do people really think that horses such as the Budweiser clydes got used to dogs by being introduced gently gently..?

Nice to see two horses produced by a non mamby-pamby trainer - I think they turned out pretty nice!
 
It might also be worth everyone remembering when we're all getting so hypercritical that what you're watching is a constructed piece of television, all edited - you don't see everything as they've had to squidge it all into less than an hour with endless ad breaks. Yes it's actuality of things but it's a construct - someone has written a script of what they want to cover, how they want it to look/sound/emotions they want it to create in the audience etc. Shots have been chosen, shots which might have told more of the story, given you more of an explanation of an incident will have been cut out or chosen not to use just for timing reasons. I enjoyed the programme for what it was, a celebration of many breeds of heavy horses and the use they can be put to. But I always remember those TV ads for The Guardian shown years ago...how you don't always see the whole picture and if you had it might have been a different story from the one you assumed.
 
muckypony said:
what did the stallion actually DO? Got a bit lippy... But he didnt actually do anything!
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My concern is more over what could have happened to the stallion. He got well within kicking distance of the mare and could have been kicked. Luckily he wasn't. Did the trainer know for sure she wouldn't kick? I don't think so. Anyway, it's not a risk I would have taken myself.

And the dog - do people really think that horses such as the Budweiser clydes got used to dogs by being introduced gently gently..?
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I don't see why not. Isn't that the usual way of getting horses used to things - progressively? That isn't namby-pamby; it's common sense! Or do you think it's better to expose them to the max from the get-go?

Nice to see two horses produced by a non mamby-pamby trainer - I think they turned out pretty nice!
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Agreed - the end result looked pretty solid. I still don't think the trainer needed to do some of the things he did - like the loud verbal scolding, or hauling quite so hard and long on the horse's mouth, or believing you need to dominate horses "because it's the only thing they understand" - in order to be successful. A person can still be confident, firm and no-nonsense without those. This isn't a major criticism of the guy though: it would be foolish to come to a conclusion based on just a snapshot - "a constructed piece of television, all edited" - and he certainly looked to be effective. I'm only giving my opinion of things I personally didn't like so much. Otherwise I enjoyed the programme a lot.
 
Fair enough, everyones intitled to an opnion - thats what makes the world go round!

I'm all up for doing things progressively, I just think that making an issue of something makes it more of an issue to the horse - e.g. when the dog was there being yappy, they just ingored it therefore, so did the horse. I imagine if they'd have been more 'woah, woah stop, get the dog out of the way!' the horse would be more likely to be scared of the dog. (I agree with someone who mentioned it earlier, I don't think the dog was actually supposed to be there).

Everyday I'm learning with my two yearlings - I've not had babies before so they are teaching me as much as I'm teaching them! And after seeing how they behave in certain situations its clear to see that the best way to teach them thigs is to just get on and do it. The neighbour has a dog who just doesn't stop yapping at them - at first I was worried evertime it came out and this made them very - my dad came up with me one day and the dog came out, he wondered why I was making such a fuss and made me leave them alone... The dog came out, barked and barked, the ponies trotted about a bit, then realsied it was nothing and carried on eating... Haven't heard the dog since!

More than anything, this program has made me want to drive my two (and possibl get a heavy horse..:D ) After being towed around the field once on my backside, I know one of them will be excellent at it!!
 
muckypony said:
I'm all up for doing things progressively, I just think that making an issue of something makes it more of an issue to the horse - e.g. when the dog was there being yappy, they just ingored it therefore, so did the horse. I imagine if they'd have been more 'woah, woah stop, get the dog out of the way!' the horse would be more likely to be scared of the dog. (I agree with someone who mentioned it earlier, I don't think the dog was actually supposed to be there).
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I think that's a good point - how a horse reacts to something often depends on your own reactions and attitude, especially if the horse has had time to learn to trust your judgement. As you say, simply ignoring can be very effective!

Hope you have a fun time learning with your yearlings - working with unspoilt youngsters can be very rewarding.

Pale Rider said:
I still think he hammed it up a bit, lol.
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Yup, I reckon so - though I wouldn't blame him for that. :)
 
Fascinating! I am a newcomer to this forum and know none of you (that I know...). I don’t even live in the UK. But I do spend my days with draft horses. I have two of my own, a stallion and a mare (Percherons both). I spend time with breeders, trainers, users, at competitions, shows, you name it, all over the world. So, I think I have done the rounds of techniques and attitudes. So, I would say the following:

• I found it fascinating that everyone went on and on about the Clydesdales being schooled at the age of two (a perfectly good age to START schooling horses), but not a single person has said anything about the Czech logger who used his two-year olds to do a full day’s logging work. Why would that be?

• Axl, the stallion: I have had the pleasure of meeting him, conversing with him, sitting on his back and going through the water with him hitched to a (gulp..) mare, with Robert Sampson driving. I would say he is probably one of the most well-behaved and laid-back stallions I have met. But he is a stallion, and stallions do like to have fun and test the limits of your control of them. That is why we have geldings… so that most people don’t need to be able to do that. Kudos to Robert Sampson for being able to use Axl to do almost anything.

• Why was there not a single Shire in the programme? After all, there are only three native breeds of draft horse in the UK, and it would not have been too huge an effort for him to include all three, would it?

• The vineyards of Italy: Really? One unknown vineyard in all of Italy uses Comtois (and yes, that is how it’s written, not “Comptoires” as written in the official press release) and this is major news? Draft horses of various breeds are being used in vineyards all over France, including in some of the most prestigious vineyards of Bordeaux and Burgundy. It has been proven that they are more cost-effective and less destructive than tractors, but the programme did not see fit to mention this.

• Martin Clunes: Has anyone considered how much more interesting the programme might have been without him? If it had actually focused on heavy horses rather than MC’s interaction with them, and how he might best use them to show what a wonderful (-) person he is?
 
Vidock said:
• Martin Clunes: Has anyone considered how much more interesting the programme might have been without him? If it had actually focused on heavy horses rather than MC’s interaction with them, and how he might best use them to show what a wonderful (-) person he is?
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I have.
 
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Meg, I quite like the guy, and to be honest there's a reason he's the face of it. We might all enjoy a pure horsetest but I imagine the target audience in this case was a little broader, and it takes a popular face to sell something a bit niche to the wider crowd. And if that's what it takes, so be it. I'd rather see it on a major channel at prime time with Clunes than tucked away on some obscure sky channel cos it's justva bit too niche!
 
Vidock said:
Fascinating! I am a newcomer to this forum and know none of you (that I know...). I don’t even live in the UK. But I do spend my days with draft horses. I have two of my own, a stallion and a mare (Percherons both). I spend time with breeders, trainers, users, at competitions, shows, you name it, all over the world. So, I think I have done the rounds of techniques and attitudes. So, I would say the following:

• I found it fascinating that everyone went on and on about the Clydesdales being schooled at the age of two (a perfectly good age to START schooling horses), but not a single person has said anything about the Czech logger who used his two-year olds to do a full day’s logging work. Why would that be?

• Axl, the stallion: I have had the pleasure of meeting him, conversing with him, sitting on his back and going through the water with him hitched to a (gulp..) mare, with Robert Sampson driving. I would say he is probably one of the most well-behaved and laid-back stallions I have met. But he is a stallion, and stallions do like to have fun and test the limits of your control of them. That is why we have geldings… so that most people don’t need to be able to do that. Kudos to Robert Sampson for being able to use Axl to do almost anything.

• Why was there not a single Shire in the programme? After all, there are only three native breeds of draft horse in the UK, and it would not have been too huge an effort for him to include all three, would it?

• The vineyards of Italy: Really? One unknown vineyard in all of Italy uses Comtois (and yes, that is how it’s written, not “Comptoires” as written in the official press release) and this is major news? Draft horses of various breeds are being used in vineyards all over France, including in some of the most prestigious vineyards of Bordeaux and Burgundy. It has been proven that they are more cost-effective and less destructive than tractors, but the programme did not see fit to mention this.

• Martin Clunes: Has anyone considered how much more interesting the programme might have been without him? If it had actually focused on heavy horses rather than MC’s interaction with them, and how he might best use them to show what a wonderful (-) person he is?
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Very interesting post. I am in agreement with most of what you have expressed. Being a Shire person, I, too, wondered why there were no Shires in the programme. The Shire is the most numerous of the heavy horse breeds in the UK. Perhaps that is why none were shown. The Shire Horse Society goes on about how endangered the breed has become, but one look at the yearly stud book puts paid to that rubbish. True, back in the 1950s, 60s, even 70s, registrations were critically down, but certainly not now. Buying and, particularly, selling Shires abroad is big business. In England, the Shire has always eclipsed the Clyde and the Suffolk. When I purchased my late Clyde, my Shire friends and acquaintances were rather miffed. Their feeling was that my Clyde gelding was taking up valuable space on my farm that could have been occupied by a Shire mare (I have had 5 Shire mares...I'm down to two now). Obviously, in Scotland the reverse is true re: Clydes vs Shires. Martin Clunes flying the flag for Clydes in England is great PR for the breed.

Martin is a very affable chap and certainly was a draw for a programme on heavy horses (or goats or yaks, for that matter). For all of us horsey folks, there needn't have been any humans involved for us to watch the show. But for the non-horsey public, Martin is a mushy, non-threatening everyman with whom viewers can identify and, ultimately, boost ratings.

I am also a lapsed member of the British Percheron Horse Society. I adore the breed. If I were quite a few years younger...

Robert Sampson is a very visible entity within the society. His work with Axl and his aptitude in driving is very well-known. Those qualities, and his proximity to Martin's farm, were probably deciding factors in his being chosen to train Martin and his "boys."

The vineyards and their use of Comtois in France is very interesting and something of which I did not know. Thank you for that information.
 
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