Maybe Controversial and Possibly Been Done Before

Katikins

Katikins

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OK, I'm a habitual lurker on here. Literally every day I come on here to check what people have been up to and hope for some new piccies etc and I realise what a huge amount of knowledge there is on this forum. I'm hoping to bring my own pictures soon as I should be moving in 6-8 months and when I do so I shall be joining the skinny dog massive with a whippet (too excited and also annoyed its so far away). I have owned many dogs before but never a skinny dog so have obviously been doing a massive amount of research both into the breed and different training methods.

Now, on to my point. One person who I think really makes a lot of sense and I would possibly like to emulate is (please don't shoot me) Cesar Milan. Just to ensure I am clear, the only experience I have of him is watching his show and his methods really seem to work on both dog and owner and I get the fact that it is dog psychology rather than 'training' - but being HIS show its obviously going to be biased in his favour. But I have heard quite a few negative comments about him and his methods on this forum but without much explanation as to why. In my quest to get as much information as possible and to make an informed decision about which methods I want to use or not use, could people please possibly tell me why they disagree with his methods, or equally, why they agree?

Also, any other suggestions for DVDs or books would be greatly appreciated. I shall be doing a lot of reading and watching in the coming months.

And going to see a breeder in the next few weeks to meet her doglets and get some hands on experience with her whippets so will obviously be asking her a massive amount of questions as well.

Cookies and crumpets for reading that waffle, I hope it made sense :)
 
Do you not have puppy classes in Holland? I wouldn't have Cesar Milan 'train' my dog if you paid me. I find his methods harsh, if admittedly effective, and think there are much better ways out there.
I love clicker training, you have to have good timing but if you have then you can train very easily with a clicker and pocket full of food/toy depending on your dog. Besides the basics are quite easy to teach, I only took my dog to puppy classes for socialisation really.
 
The thinking now on dog training is positive reinforcement and CM dosnt come into that category. Rolling the dog and talking alpha male and dominence is considered by lots of knowledgeable dog people as belonging to the ice age. Negative reinforcement does work but why would anyone want to do that to train your dog with fear.

One of the most popular training books at the moment is Jean Donaldson The Culture Clash or any or her books and she is well respected world wide.

I think most people agree with the merits of clicker training which is clicking when you get the behaviour you want and rewarding.
 
For your fluffy pooch with basic training issues, then no, his methods dont neccesarily need to be implimented, on a puppy such as yourself will be taking on. Except the encouragement of exercise (which I think he has definately encouraged)
For more serious issues inc aggression, then I personally don't have an issue, but then I dont mind taking on board a range of training methods, that dont include, scented candles and endless amounts of food and hugs;)
Some shows I certainly have cringed, others I have been impressed with.
He does deal with complete plebs who have indeed created the ridiculous issues the dogs have:rolleyes:
I would say have a read up and make your own informed choices.
Whippets are pretty cool/clever little dogs, I dont think you will have any cesar style issues if you have one from a baby:D
 
I agree with the point about negative reinforcement being outdated and un-needed, but to my eye the majority of what he does seems to be using body language and 'blocking' unwanted behaviour and only the extreme cases he uses physical force - which is something I would never do. It's more the calm assertiveness and body language of what he says that interests me. I am more than happy to be corrected, I am just wanting to hear the reasoning behind people's strong dislike of him (rather like the Parelli threads in NL). I by no means think he's the be all and end all but as I said, my experience of him is only from his shows and is really the only dog training I've been exposed to in a v long time.

We do have puppy training classes over here which they do in English so will def be doing that and most probably be doing clicker training as well (weirdly, this worked really well with my last horse - strange girly).

Thanks Dobiegirl, will have a look at that book recommendation :)
 
CAYLA said:
For your fluffy pooch with basic training issues, then no, his methods dont neccesarily need to be implimented, on a puppy such as yourself will be taking on. Except the encouragement of exercise (which I think he has definately encouraged)
For more serious issues inc aggression, then I personally don't have an issue, but then I dont mind taking on board a range of training methods, that dont include, scented candles and endless amounts of food and hugs;)
Some shows I certainly have cringed, others I have been impressed with.
He does deal with complete plebs who have indeed created the ridiculous issues the dogs have:rolleyes:
I would say have a read up and make your own informed choices.
Whippets are pretty cool/clever little dogs, I dont think you will have any cesar style issues if you have one from a baby:D
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Oooh, so glad you replied Cayla, I was hoping you would.

I fully agree with a lot of what you said, most episodes I sit there going... you created that problem, and that one, and that one... WHY ARE YOU HUGGING IT WHILE ITS TRYING TO BITE YOU!! Etc etc.

It just seems a lot of people have an intensely strong dislike to his methods which I couldn't really get my head around. But yes, starting a puppy from scratch I'm hoping I won't have any of those kinds of issues, I just want to make sure my 'toolbox' is as fully equipped as possible before ickle one joins the household. Plus, I am 10 mins on the tram from the beach so I really don't think that lack of exercise will be an issue in our case :)
 
The trouble is, people DO apply the extreme stuff to 'normal' dogs. On another forum I go on, someone who is a great CM fan posted about how they had rolled their young puppy and pinned her on her back for some small misdemeanor - and was then surprised that their relationship seemed to have suffered as a result! Many people pointed out why this might be but he was convinced she had needed putting in her place and dominating. Poor puppy:(

A good trainer should be able to help you with your body language, it's not a special CM method to be honest. Ditto with calmness, assertiveness etc, this is not something new and revolutionary IMO.
 
Spudlet said:
The trouble is, people DO apply the extreme stuff to 'normal' dogs. On another forum I go on, someone who is a great CM fan posted about how they had rolled their young puppy and pinned her on her back for some small misdemeanor - and was then surprised that their relationship seemed to have suffered as a result! Many people pointed out why this might be but he was convinced she had needed putting in her place and dominating. Poor puppy:(

A good trainer should be able to help you with your body language, it's not a special CM method to be honest. Ditto with calmness, assertiveness etc, this is not something new and revolutionary IMO.
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I don't get the rolling malarky (which a large dog, u are going to put ya back out for sure):rolleyes:, but can see how some clueless ones may think it looks impressive lol or makes them look like they have a clue, and with a truely aggressive dog, you are doing to end up with serious injuries;), I cannot keep my laugh in when Im talking to folk and they say when your dogs gets bolchy/bites "get down and look him/her in the eye" or roll him over blahhh":D
Also to be a reprimand, I still believe in those things:p should be quick, then forgotten, not a prolonged roll around the floor or cowboy style stand off, or full on grappling with a dog.
 
Katikins said:
Oooh, so glad you replied Cayla, I was hoping you would.

I fully agree with a lot of what you said, most episodes I sit there going... you created that problem, and that one, and that one... WHY ARE YOU HUGGING IT WHILE ITS TRYING TO BITE YOU!! Etc etc.

It just seems a lot of people have an intensely strong dislike to his methods which I couldn't really get my head around. But yes, starting a puppy from scratch I'm hoping I won't have any of those kinds of issues, I just want to make sure my 'toolbox' is as fully equipped as possible before ickle one joins the household. Plus, I am 10 mins on the tram from the beach so I really don't think that lack of exercise will be an issue in our case :)
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I don't have a strong dislike, I agree with some stuff and don't with others, same with other trainers I have seen on the tv.
I have notice some people have completely changed tune to when his shows 1st came about and they adored the fella/his methods but now hate him.
Like I say, some things I cringed at, one being a cat an a large dog (he went about that all wrong):D I suspect he has little experience with cat and dog issues:D I have never gasped and thought "dear god that barbaric" , more lik.....well that could have been dealt with that a little differently. The folk he deals with..........now they really do alarm me!:rolleyes:
I think the dog on dog aggression he deals with is very effective, but maybe because I deal with that alot and im not dissimilar in my methods, although they varie a bit from dog to dog an I will indeed correct a dog if need be.

An that i for me, there CM posts are to time consuming:p
 
Cayla, we are actually agreeing with one another I think;) If someone is to use positive punishment, such as a sharp verbal correction, then it needs to be timed absolutely spot-on and over in a second, not as you say look like a wrestling bout minus the lycra. I certainly correct Henry verbally, as people in the next county can confirm:o

However for most 'normal' dogs, I do think positive reinforcement of one kind or another is generally best to train new desirable behaviours, even ones that overlay and replace undesirable behaviours (for example, teaching a dog to sit when you greet it because it cannot then jump up at you). Rather than shouting etc.
 
Go and find the expose on youtube. Most of the dogs they went back to were worse if not dead from his "training".

He's no more doing dog psychology than my ass.

Study some dog body language and then re-watch the show. Its a party of shut down, over stimulated dogs.

The dominance theory has bee debunked time and time again even by the people that first came up with it. And anyone that thinks you prove dominance by alpha rolling, "tshhh"ing, walking through the door first, kneeing your dog for jumping ect is quite frankly an idiot.

If you watch wolves the dominant one shows no violence beyond sound. They are calm quiet leaders.
 
Spudlet said:
Cayla, we are actually agreeing with one another I think;) If someone is to use positive punishment, such as a sharp verbal correction, then it needs to be timed absolutely spot-on and over in a second, not as you say look like a wrestling bout minus the lycra. I certainly correct Henry verbally, as people in the next county can confirm:o

However for most 'normal' dogs, I do think positive reinforcement of one kind or another is generally best to train new desirable behaviours, even ones that overlay and replace undesirable behaviours (for example, teaching a dog to sit when you greet it because it cannot then jump up at you). Rather than shouting etc.
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Yep we are:D see how time consuming it is though, I said I was not coming back:p
 
CAYLA said:
Yep we are:D see how time consuming it is though, I said I was not coming back:p
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Hahaaaa you will never leave:p

BUT I also think KatieLou has a point, the guy is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy:p As you say Cayla, I do not watch his shows from behind a cushion, but I do think 'good grief, what a confrontational way to address this, that could have been done in a much simpler and quieter way'. Or 'Hmmmm, wonder how long that will last when he goes home'.

I also think there is great confusion over dominance generally - you can be a leader, and the 'dominant' one without stomping about in size 14 boots all over the place but many people seem to hear 'dominant' and think that means they need to become Herr Flick of the Gestapo:rolleyes: Which is rather unfortunate for their dogs:(
 
MMmmm..well I`m fine with CM,but with my breed it needs combining with positive..food!..reinforcement too. So for me it is a bit of this,and a bit of that..but then my breed is remarkably stubborn and blessed with very selective hearing.
Never tryed clicker training ,cannot see it working with the breed I have ..they are ,shall we say,unique.
 
EAST KENT said:
MMmmm..well I`m fine with CM,but with my breed it needs combining with positive..food!..reinforcement too. So for me it is a bit of this,and a bit of that..but then my breed is remarkably stubborn and blessed with very selective hearing.
Never tryed clicker training ,cannot see it working with the breed I have ..they are ,shall we say,unique.
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I've seen clickers work time and time again with bullys.

I think people have a misconception about clickers. They are not some magic training technique. They simply replace our voices as a more accurate "yes" a more accurate marker of "that was what i wanted". There is really nothing for a dog to "get".
 
I cannot believe Im back:eek::D I have never gone with the whole, door first, feed first malarky so yeah thats pants, but your dog diving on folk as they walk through the door, bouncing up like a spring lamb continually (plain bad manners)and yes the answers are simple and although a knee is no warranted when you can simply turn away its not barbarick either, but then in that breath, VB also has me sitting saying "I whatever" and I still see dogs raging like bulls on the end of their lead at the end of her programme;) but then they may say the same to me lol, and I don't believe a miracle has been thrust upon us with CM lol, most of that is simply dogs that have never been corrected or reprimanded in any way shape or form throughout their life, be it raised voice to a snap of the finger, so they react to it immediately, hence you see a miracle unfold;):D
However I fully expect the dogs to revert back to the unwanted behaviour cos frankly the owners are full on tits and you can see from the get go they ain't growing no brain power whilst he is visiting:D
However like I say, the methods that work best are maybe the more extreme cases of aggression, maybe nothing in there for the average pet owner with a basic behavioural issue.
As with anything though folk will copy certain methods when they are not warranted. They see a wolf bearing teeth too young and do the same to their dog lol, what can we do, ban wildlife programmes;)
I dont believe all issues can be resolved with a hug or clicker, just like they can't with a fist or boot.
Im not coming back:p
 
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And thats what i don't like is people insinuating that people who clicker train want to fix everything with a hug.
I have seen some wonderful things done with dogs that most people wouldn't even looked at before they told you the dog needs to be PTS and all were done without violence or force. So just because you see them working on crazy aggressive cases doesn't mean it by far the only way.

Also there is quite a simply way to stop a dog jumping that has nothing to do with proving your alpha status.

And with that i am done :D
 
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katielou said:
And thats what i don't like is people insinuating that people who clicker train want to fix everything with a hug.
I have seen some wonderful things done with dogs that most people wouldn't even looked at before they told you the dog needs to be PTS and all were done without violence or force. So just because you see them working on crazy aggressive cases doesn't mean it by far the only way.

Also there is quite a simply way to stop a dog jumping that has nothing to do with proving your alpha status.

And with that i am done :D
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Not sure if aimed at me, did you mean me? I never insinuated all people that clicker train = hug!
I often recommend clicker training on here where I have thought it suitable, but there are instances where it won't cut it, or a hug, like we see so often on the CM show with the crazy owners.
I have dealt with plenty of dogs that where destined for a yellow bag , I never used a clicker or violence:) there are many methods to train a dog, just think we should seek and find what we deem "right for us, our dog" and not have certain opinions rammed down our throats like the cesar style training or any other or be made to feel like bad owners (obs not me) Im not so easily offended or take other peoples opinions to heart:D .

You will be back.............I said the same thing:p:D:D
 
EAST KENT said:
MMmmm..well I`m fine with CM,but with my breed it needs combining with positive..food!..reinforcement too. So for me it is a bit of this,and a bit of that..but then my breed is remarkably stubborn and blessed with very selective hearing.
Never tryed clicker training ,cannot see it working with the breed I have ..they are ,shall we say,unique.
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Valid point, not one fits all (is that even the saying):o:D it's somthing similar, I wote it the other way at 1st, and it looked daft:D
 
Well I have to say I am in the minority and enjoy his shows but he is working with dogs that have serious behaviourial issues. Ones that, quite frankly, I would not have a clue how to manage. I am also in favour of his very basic mantra which is to exercise the dog properly and consistently and the point that a lot of poor behaviour comes from dogs that have too much energy. I do also so listen to the points made in various situations that the work done needed to be done with a proper trainer.

As for the rolling on back/dominance thing, I never applied it and wouldn't work on my bitch anyway. She rolls on her back for a tummy scratch as a reward (think it might be due to having pups before she came to me)

In reality, despite having my own dogs for best part of 16 years, and family owned before, my actual experience, like most dog owners is pretty narrow. I have had a lab and then always staffs. I have never had to deal with a truly tricky dog so would be as stuck as someone completely new!
 
Luci07 said:
Well I have to say I am in the minority and enjoy his shows but he is working with dogs that have serious behaviourial issues. Ones that, quite frankly, I would not have a clue how to manage. I am also in favour of his very basic mantra which is to exercise the dog properly and consistently and the point that a lot of poor behaviour comes from dogs that have too much energy. I do also so listen to the points made in various situations that the work done needed to be done with a proper trainer.

As for the rolling on back/dominance thing, I never applied it and wouldn't work on my bitch anyway. She rolls on her back for a tummy scratch as a reward (think it might be due to having pups before she came to me)

In reality, despite having my own dogs for best part of 16 years, and family owned before, my actual experience, like most dog owners is pretty narrow. I have had a lab and then always staffs. I have never had to deal with a truly tricky dog so would be as stuck as someone completely new!
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Good point.

Im not returning now.........No , im not, I bet I don't:p
 
For a pet whippet puppy, you won't need CM methods.

I use a clicker, it helps to eliminate any emotion I might transfer in my voice if I am ratty, tired, bored etc :p

I second the Jane Donaldson book but I do pick and choose what I like from it, I do have my dogs in choke chains (again, you won't need one with a whippy :p), which she balks at, but generally talks a lot of sense.
 
To quote Floofster - HAHAHAHAHAHA Cayla and KatieLou are well and truly TRAPPED:D

Any method is only as good as the person on the end of the lead... if your timing is godawful then whether you use a clicker or a ninety thousand volt collar you will not succeed. I think the most interesting point in The Culture Clash is the study where she talks about rates of feedback - basically they compared professional and keen hobbyist trainers with inexperienced trainers, and they found that whatever method was used, the first group were giving feedback more often, and with better timing, than the second group and so were achieving better results.

So often - in fact nearly always - the problem is with the people, not the dogs.
 
I think the saying there is more than one way to skin a cat comes to mind, very approiate on a dog forum:D

Darcy has come on in leaps and bounds for clicker training but I can understand if people dont like it. What ever method you use (and Im talking positive here) its what suits you and your dog.

The thing is with all these programmes they are very cleverly edited so doubt we get a very clear picture. I know other dog forums have CM as spawn of the devil but if it makes just one person think I would like to take my dog to a training class I think thats got to be good.
 
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