Meet Cards

[onliner]

Good thing too, I would be miffed if we didn't.

 

[L&M]

One of the packs we hunt with is no longer issuing meet cards at all, not even to subscribers. This is all due to an anti from a newly formed sab organisation coming out at OM.

However as op said, we buy an 8 day pack and like to plan our meets in advance, and have to consider work commitments etc. This luxury has been taken away from us and is extremely frustrating as there are certain meets we want to 'save' days for.

The Hon sec is emailing meets each fortnight which is a slight help but still gives us no indication of future meets.

I do not understand why subscribers should not be trusted with a meet card - fair enough not to issue it to any tom, dick and harry, but surely people who have paid a good chunk of their hard earned cash should be afforded the priviledge?

Frankly I find it patronising - after all in our country an anti only has to walk into a local rural pub to find out meet information!!!

 

[Fiagai]

Ihw, IMHO too that's how it should be, with meets published up front. I don't understand why hunts should be nervous of being monitored, unless they have something to hide. In fact, they should welcome monitors, to show that they are adhering to the law.

You don't understand "why hunts should be nervous of being monitored" Seriously?

The fact that 'monitor' and 'Anti' has become for all purposes an inseparable term

There is no basis in law for any private citizen or recreational group to submit to being policed by what is in effect a vigilante type movement

There is no basis ditto for being watched by a group of people who are not vetted or given leave to do so.

That it is unacceptable that any such individuals or group should fail to follow normal civil procedures with regard to the fact that the determination of whether something is lawfull or otherwise is soley determined by the Police and judicial authorities

That many 'monitors' may be in breach of the law though trespassing etc in carrying out such activities

That people are allowed to go about their normal business and daily activities with a presumption of innocence

That is just some of the reasons which I can shortlist in relation to the activities of such self appointed 'monitors'

Do you have anything "to hide" with regard to your private life that others should monitor? No? Why is that? Can you prove that?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Fiagai, I refer you to two posts from an earlier thread in Tack Room.

The new breed of hunt monitors are savvy. They video and photograph from areas where they are not trespassing like the road or a right of way. They do not interfere with or harrass the hunt, they simply collect photographic and video material which could be used as evidence if needed. They are nothing like the hunt sabs who do indeed do all sorts of illegal, violent and unpleasant things.

If a particular hunt is trail hunting legally, why on earth would they be afraid of being monitored? You'd think they'd welcome the chance to demonstrate they are indeed 'trail hunting' and not setting out to hunt as per pre ban.

Maybe this is a simplistic and naive view :rolleyes3:.

ETA I believe that monitors do not mask themselves. More brownie points for them.

I once by chance came across a monitor's website, they are so well organised its quite unbelievable,
it was all about the law regarding PRoW etc <written for them by lawyers> what they can and cannot do,
how to go about gaining useful footage, its was quite fascinating how well briefed they were, even who to contact and what to do if you were arrested

Being monitored is maybe uncomfortable for some, but if day in, day out all it proves is that hunts are hunting a trail and not a live scent, then surely the monitors will get pretty bored and will realise that there is nothing illegal going on?

ETA. Wrt to the original topic, I haven't been given a full meet card this season but I have been told which dates the hunt is or may be expected round here. At least I will know when to keep the horses in (and when to guard the grass verge!).

 

[PapaverFollis]

Completely irrelevant but every time this thread catches my eye I think someone is introducing their new horse... who goes by the name of Cards. :lol:

Sorry, as you were.

 

[Fiagai]

TP - yes I saw those posts. However they do not answer the points laid out as to why the actions of monitors/Antis remain unacceptable behaviour in a democratic society.

There is no rationale for any self selected group of citizens to set themselves up to monitor and by their actions effectively harass another group of citizens. It may happen elsewhere - that does not make it acceptable in this country.

By definition the actions of monitors/antis is harassment in that they persistently follow, watch and / or pester groups who are legally allowed to get together to persue what is in in effect a legal pastime.

If anyone individual believes a law has been broken - and they they are concerned - they should contact the relevant authorities.

It concerns me deeply that anyone would seek to rationalise the behaviour of such groups. I believe we should all be concerned. I have looked into a number of these groups and much of the founding philosophy appears to come from an extreme animal rights position.

I find hunt 'monitoring' a thin edge of the wedge. Dig deep and you will find a much wider movement against the use and ownership of animals whether that is farming or pet ownership.

And yes that includes the ownership and use of horses. Would you be ok with an organised group parked outside your premises on a 24/7 basis 'monitoring" your use and care of horses because you 'might' break the law and therefore evidence could be gatherered so that you could be prosecuted?

No? Well the future may not be too far from that. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Goldenstar]

Sorry, Spacefaer, but the attitude that it is impossible to card every landowner so that some horse owners will be missed is simply not good enough. I had words with a master who said he couldn't be expected to notify everyone with 'an acre and a pony'. Well, he could, if only he got organised. IIt’s

We used to have a brilliant local hunt supporter who made it her business to welcome all new people moving into the area, and enquire if they wished to receive a meet card. Plus she would phone round all of us a few days before hounds were expected. However, she got so demoralised after repeatedly being kept out of the loop by the relevant joint master that she gave it up in the end.

Asking 'nicely' round here gets you nowhere now, unless you are in the inner circle.

This simply not the case I let horse owners in this bit of the hunts area when the hunts coming here .
The farmers get a card so those with livery know in advance and I text the smaller places where people are keeping horses at home .
Anyone who wants a text only has to ask .

 

[Tiddlypom]

GS, that's how it should be done. It's fairly straightforward to cascade out the information so that it reaches the little people. However, that no longer happens hereabouts. I daren't pass on any info re meets to neighbours in case I no longer get notified myself .

Fiagai, there's always been the weird animal rights protesters who don't want people own any animal as a pet. We will have to disagree about most 'monitors' coming under that category, though. From what I understand, most would be delighted if all hunts changed from trail to drag hunting.

 

[Kat]

Fiagai, there's always been the weird animal rights protesters who don't want people own any animal as a pet. We will have to disagree about most 'monitors' coming under that category, though. From what I understand, most would be delighted if all hunts changed from trail to drag hunting.

So why do bloodhound packs get abuse then?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Abuse from hunt sabs, not from hunt monitors, I presume? Sabs/monitors are as different from each other as trail hunting is from drag hunting, though plenty of folk seem to get muddled with both categories :rolleyes3:.

Sabs have been about for donkey's years, they used to bus them out from Exeter University back when I was hunting in Devon in the 70s.

 

[popsdosh]

Abuse from hunt sabs, not from hunt monitors, I presume? Sabs/monitors are as different from each other as trail hunting is from drag hunting, though plenty of folk seem to get muddled with both categories :rolleyes3:.

Sabs have been about for donkey's years, they used to bus them out from Exeter University back when I was hunting in Devon in the 70s.

They are on the whole the same people at least in this part of the world all the monitors come from previously known sabbing groups. Hunt monitor just sounds a bit more acceptable they themselves must still operate within the law including civil laws which the police wont have anything to do with including filming people on private land. Their actions in any other situation would usually end up in arrest because the general public would not accept the intrusion.

 

[Fiagai]

...
Fiagai, there's always been the weird animal rights protesters who don't want people own any animal as a pet. We will have to disagree about most 'monitors' coming under that category, though. From what I understand, most would be delighted if all hunts changed from trail to drag hunting.

TP - you stated that you didnt understand "why hunts should be nervous of being monitored" and in reply I detailed why many people who hunt would indeed be uncomfortable being 'monitored' by individuals or groups whose are at best unvetted and have no bona fides to undertake any such self appointed role of 'monitoring' others who participate in what is in fact the legal activity of trail hunting.

In my experience 'monitors' share much the same space as 'Antis' and as other posters here have detailed many are indistinguishable from Sabs.

Of note - I did not specify that 'most' monitors were 'weird animal rights protestors'. What I did say was extreme animal rights beliefs appear to underpin the philosophy of many of these groups. Go online and track the names/ profiles of many of those involved setting and running such groups and you will see the same individuals repeatedly to the fore.

Personally I seriously doubt that monitor groups truly wish for a universal move to drag hunting. What I have observed is an evident objective of discrediting all forms of hunting (this despite very low rates of prosecutions under the Hunting Act)

As I stated - such attacks on hunting appear to form the thin edge of the wedge with repeated calls for all forms of hunting on horseback to be banned.

Clear the ground with regard to public opinion on hunting and whatever the next extreme animal rights objective becomes more achievable.

 

[Frumpoon]

Our 2 biggest local hunts have completely closed the books to new supporters

I've made enquiries to no avail so I can only assume they are flying under the radar of the ban and hunting illegally

I'm moving onto bloodhounding for the ease of planning in advance and so on

 

[Fiagai]

Our 2 biggest local hunts have completely closed the books to new supporters

I've made enquiries to no avail so I can only assume they are flying under the radar of the ban and hunting illegally

I'm moving onto bloodhounding for the ease of planning in advance and so on

I don't believe you can make that assumption. The increased activity of anti and sab groups and the anti-social activity that such groups entail now means that many hunts are having to be ultra careful as to their normal and - I mean hunting within the law - activities. I dont know the hunts to which you refer - my only advice would be to seek a personal recommendation by way of introduction. Best of luck.

 

[Frumpoon]

Both my vet and farrier hunt with one

When I asked quietly if there was a kill it was denied but my previous invitations dried up after that

 

[Fiagai]

Both my vet and farrier hunt with one
When I asked quietly if there was a kill it was denied but my previous invitations dried up after that

Perhaps that overt enquiry was enough to cause some concern that you were digging?

Remember you said previously

Our 2 biggest local hunts have completely closed the books to new supporters
I've made enquiries to no avail so I can only assume they are flying under the radar of the ban and hunting illegally
I'm moving onto bloodhounding for the ease of planning in advance and so on

Do you believe every hunt which you approach and do not get a positive response from - is up to nefarious activities lol?

 

[Frumpoon]

Probably yes

 

[Tiddlypom]

There's an interesting article in the current edition of H&H about meet cards. Wonder if the writer was prompted to cover the topic by this thread ! Apologies if the print comes up small.

 

[Manricko]

There's an interesting article in the current edition of H&H about meet cards. Wonder if the writer was prompted to cover the topic by this thread ! Apologies if the print comes up small.

It's all right! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I know that I'm bumping up an old thread, but after Saturday's antics, I feel even more strongly that hunt meet details should be readily available for all to know. Currently both the hunt and the antis seem to know exactly when/where the meets are taking place, but the poor neutral sods living in the countryside don't, and can't prepare for the chaos to come.

I was told of the meet a day in advance (I am a slightly special case) so I knew to get the horses in and to go into lockdown as usual. However, I daren't tip anyone else off, in case I get blacklisted.

Saturday was awful. It's the first time there have been sabs here. They seemed to target just about anybody, whether or not they had anything to do with the hunt. It was damn scary.

Ahh, not quite...

You were wise to go home. The same pack (I'm guessing) fetched up here after midday, complete with several car loads of balaclava wearing sabs right onto them. It all got very heated and there was lots of shouting, though I think it fell short of actual fisticuffs. At least 3 police cars turned up. A car load of sabs got lost and ran through a friend's garden while she was at home, which was alarming, as she knew nothing about the hunt and hadn't got a clue what all these balaclava wearing people were doing in her garden.

It's the first time I've seen any sabs anywhere. Scary.

She's making light of it, but it was horrible at the time. They made off before she could call the police. She's nothing at all to do with the hunt.

Indeed.

These are a couple of brief videos from a pro hunt fb page of the same group of sabs elsewhere on the same day. That's their black discovery in the background. The two lead aggressors are bare faced, the rest wore balaclavas. No wonder my friend was scared. This is all very close to where I live, ride and walk the dog.

https://www.facebook.com/127375934565341/posts/261629174473349

https://www.facebook.com/127375934565341/posts/261656731137260

This sort of thing is normally posted on the hunting board, but IMHO it's relevant as it spilled over into normal daily life for neutral folk here in the countryside. I believe that later on fighting did break out between pros and antis, and people were taken to hospital.

The fact that the whipper in from the same pack had been filmed in close up two days beforehand on a hunting day in woodland putting the corpse of a recently dead fox into a black bin bag didn't help to calm the situation.

Now you might say that having sabs out means it's all the more important to keep the dates secret. Yeah, great, so us poor sods who live here can venture out unwittingly into a war zone. This was NOT a day to be out for a walk or a hack, or otherwise to be enjoying the countryside. Local folk didn't even feel safe at home.

Advance warning is needed for all. As I said in the earlier thread, if you've nothing to hide, why would you mind being monitored? Though Saturday's sabs were just out for a fight.

 

[Fred66]

Advance warning is needed for all. As I said in the earlier thread, if you've nothing to hide, why would you mind being monitored? Though Saturday's sabs were just out for a fight.

Because more and more monitors/sabs are coming out and harassing and threatening people partaking, people hosting and even people with no actual links just perceived ones.

Historically pubs have frequently hosted meets and they are no finding their business trashed on social media, as are any hosts whose business is identifiable from their name. Quite often hosts and land owners are now asking the hunts not to publish meets or to make it secure in order to reduce the likelihood of this harassment.

Some pony clubs and their committees have found themselves targeted by hunt monitors/sabs despite the only link to the hunt being through an historic naming of the branch.

You say people shouldn't mind being monitored if they are doing nothing wrong, so you wouldn't mind if someone followed you round ?

Say you go to the butchers and it is picketed by a group of vegans campaigning to stop eating meat. They take it further, they call you a murderer, they follow you out of the butchers to your home, they find out your name, they post it all over social media, they bad mouth your business, you have your young children with you. How long before you stop frequenting that butcher ?

So you really wonder why hunts are being secretive about meets and controlling who gets the meet cards ?

 

[DiNozzo]

Because more and more monitors/sabs are coming out and harassing and threatening people partaking, people hosting and even people with no actual links just perceived ones.

Historically pubs have frequently hosted meets and they are no finding their business trashed on social media, as are any hosts whose business is identifiable from their name. Quite often hosts and land owners are now asking the hunts not to publish meets or to make it secure in order to reduce the likelihood of this harassment.

Some pony clubs and their committees have found themselves targeted by hunt monitors/sabs despite the only link to the hunt being through an historic naming of the branch.

You say people shouldn't mind being monitored if they are doing nothing wrong, so you wouldn't mind if someone followed you round ?

Say you go to the butchers and it is picketed by a group of vegans campaigning to stop eating meat. They take it further, they call you a murderer, they follow you out of the butchers to your home, they find out your name, they post it all over social media, they bad mouth your business, you have your young children with you. How long before you stop frequenting that butcher ?

So you really wonder why hunts are being secretive about meets and controlling who gets the meet cards ?

I think Tiddlypom's point is that those people who hunt put themselves at risk of their behaviour, those who live on neighbouring land, don't.

I agree Tiddlypom, that they should be published. It isn't fair for those not involved to be dragged into it without any warning, and as above, it's happening more and more frequently.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thank you, DiNozzo, that's exactly what I mean.

The antis already know when the meets are on, quite how they get their info I don't know. It's just most of us non hunt connected country dwellers who don't. One set of neighbours was stranded on Saturday out in a field opposite us whilst walking their dogs, caught in between the hunt and the antis. They were rescued by other neighbours who took them in. I'm sure that they would not have chosen to walk their dogs then if they knew the hunt was coming.

The video of the dead fox being bagged up and carried off by the whipper in was always going to be inflammatory. I did wonder if there would be some bother as a result on Saturday. There certainly was, as my innocent friends and neighbours found out for themselves.

 

[Fred66]

Thank you, DiNozzo, that's exactly what I mean.

The antis already know when the meets are on, quite how they get their info I don't know. It's just most of us non hunt connected country dwellers who don't. One set of neighbours was stranded on Saturday out in a field opposite us whilst walking their dogs, caught in between the hunt and the antis. They were rescued by other neighbours who took them in. I'm sure that they would not have chosen to walk their dogs then if they knew the hunt was coming.

The video of the dead fox being bagged up and carried off by the whipper in was always going to be inflammatory. I did wonder if there would be some bother as a result on Saturday. There certainly was, as my innocent friends and neighbours found out for themselves.

But the only way of trying to mitigate against the antis finding out is by restricting the issue of meet cards.

By issuing meet cards to anyone who asks or who lives in the location the information is not controlled and the probability of sabs/monitors finding out is increased. Obviously the landowners whose land they are going over will know as they will have given permission, so if your hunt isn't communicating meet dates but you have neighbours who allow hunting over their land then maybe ask them to let you know ?

It is not ideal but you can't really blame them

 

[ihatework]

But the only way of trying to mitigate against the antis finding out is by restricting the issue of meet cards.

By issuing meet cards to anyone who asks or who lives in the location the information is not controlled and the probability of sabs/monitors finding out is increased. Obviously the landowners whose land they are going over will know as they will have given permission, so if your hunt isn't communicating meet dates but you have neighbours who allow hunting over their land then maybe ask them to let you know ?

It is not ideal but you can't really blame them

I completely disagree.

Hunt monitors will always find a way to be out, the more secretive the hunts are, in my mind, the more it looks like they have something to hide.

I’m hunting neutral. I don’t particularly object to the act of hunting but can fully appreciate the chaos/inconvenience hunts cause locally. They may for the most part be on private land but they do also block up public roads and bridleways quite frequently.

It’s only common manners to enable local folk to easily find out when & where hunts will be meeting. Why should local residents be put in a situation where they are in fear for their safety when it could be easily avoided.

FWIW, my local (very big, well known and dare I say it, pretty arrogant) hunt publish their meets on their website.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don't directly know of which pack ihw is referring to, but I thought, let's think of a very posh pack and look them up.

Bingo. I doubt that you can get much posher than the Duke of Beaufort's Hunt, and they do indeed publish their meets on their website.

http://www.beauforthunt.com/

Along with the following blurb:-

The Beaufort Hunt, along with other hunts, have changed their rules to state:

• That we intend to carry out only legal activities.
• Farmers, Subscribers, Members and Followers have been informed to this effect.
• Along with other hunts, we regard this as a temporary ban.
• We will continue to campaign to prove that this ban is detrimental to animal welfare.
• The Beaufort will continue to raise funds to pay for legal challenges.
• We will continue to work towards maintaining employment both within the Hunt as well as related trades.
• The Beaufort Hunt intends to maintain a workable pack of hounds to keep the Beaufort bloodlines that are renowned across the United Kingdom and indeed worldwide.
• We are determined to keep our community together.
• We will continue to raise funds for local charities.

So if the Beaufort are happy to publicise their meets in advance, why aren't other packs?

ETA They also usefully publicise where the location of the second horses changeover is. This means that you can work out the general direction in which the hunt will be travelling on the day.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It gets more bonkers.

Today, being a Friday, is not a day on which my local pack usually hunts, barring odd times around Christmas and New Year depending on Bank Holiday dates. I laughingly said to OH as we set off walking the dog this morning 'Well, at least we won't bump into the hunt today!' Then a strange horsebox passes us on the lane at around 10.30am. I told myself not to get paranoid, there's plenty of other reasons for strange horseboxes to be on the road.

Well, it WAS the local hunt, who met in the next village today. This village is one which we often walk in, and (if I can get my mare sound/fit enough), is on my favourite hacking route. Not having access to a full meet card means I don't know if this was a scheduled meet or an extra of some sort.

I really don't want to ride or walk into the path of the hunt, so why make it so damn difficult for me to avoid it? ETA, and if the info on their website is correct, the monitors were out again. Changing the day didn't shake them off, did it.

 

[L&M]

One of our local packs that we like to buy 8 days with are not giving out a meet card either. They send an email with the meets for the coming fortnight instead now.

We have decided not to subscribe because of this - we have to organise our mid week hunting around work commitments/take days holiday, and want to attend certain meets, which we can't do without a meet card.

I have written to both the Hunt Sec and Chairman to ask if we could be allowed one, and have not even had a response, which makes me feel like they don't want our subscription anyhow. I also agree with whoever made the comment that the 'anti's are winning' as this pack has just lost 2 subscribers.

Interestingly from what I have seen of their meets on social media, the fields are getting smaller, so maybe we are not the only ones who are voting with their feet.

There are many ways around the meet card issue, such as secure websites with passwords, and think it is very sad that people who are well known to the hunt, (this pack used to hunt my land!), are deemed not trustworthy enough to have a meet card.

 

[Tiddlypom]

And again. Isn't it wonderful when the only way you can find out where the hunt met is by looking at the photos afterwards on the antis FB pages . I did suspect that there would be a meet nearby as historically there usually is one on that date, but I wasn't officially told.

It was less than 2 miles away. The antis are claiming that there were 9 police cars, a riot van and a police helicopter in attendance. Plus a dead fox. I only saw 2 police cars and the helicopter, which was circling for ages (how much did THAT cost?).

Now if the hunt want to go out and kill a fox in front of the antis then I can't stop you, but please warn us locals properly in advance so that we can keep out of your way. The Beaufort publish their meets in advance...

 

[Tiddlypom]

I was too damn right when I posted above that the hunt met less than two miles away from me last week. Allegedly they weren't coming this way. Closer inspection of an anti group's video showed that they came within 0.5 miles of home, on a quiet lane where I had been walking my elderly dog less than an hour beforehand. It's also a regular hacking route.

Just keep us all informed, you hunting lot, and stick to the trail hunting rules. If you can p1ss me off to the degree that you have, with me having hunted so much in the past, just think what you're doing to those who already dislike hunts and hunting.