Mind blown!!!!!!!!

[Keira 8888]

Hi guys,

Happy Sunday! Hope you are all well.

What a day I have had!!!!! I enlisted the help of a jockey to help me with Prince - I wanted to see how he reacted with someone confident!

This guy had him trotting around a busy roundabout with 30 minutes of meeting him! I couldn’t believe my eyes! He stood on his back, mounted from the floor with no stirrups, flapped a branch of leaves around him while riding and Prince didn’t bat an eye lid!

Then he asked me to get my hat, and I rode him for the first time in 6 months!

Am so happy! He is going to work with us every day from now on and said that Prince was a wonderful sort who just needed firm handling. Even my daughter rode him again!

It’s been the most amazing day. ???

 

[TheOldTrout]

Congratulations! You must be so pleased and proud.

 

[EllenJay]

Good news.
Not critising but what was he achieving by standing on his back? ?‍

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

wonderful!

 

[poiuytrewq]

Amazing news! You must be thrilled.
The standing on backs thing I know is a real bug bear with everyone but let’s face it no one would attempt to stand on a lunatics back and if someone does it on a horse I think it can give the owner confidence in thinking “if x stood up on him and he didn’t bat an eyelid then he’s pretty tolerant” ?‍
All these little things can help install confidence, I imagine that’s what this guy was trying to do…. and did by the sounds of it!

 

[Fjord]

Yay!!!

 

[paddy555]

Good news.
Not critising but what was he achieving by standing on his back? ?‍

for a horse that reared he probably achieved everything in Keira's eyes.

well done to both of you Keira. Did you think this would ever happen? He's done you proud, many would have given up.

 

[Laurac13]

Hi Keira

firstly i want to say you are the most amazing owner and I know you love Prince more than anything ? but if Prince has kissing spines, a guy ‘with a firm approach’ is not the way forward eventually if your horse is in pain he will explode and hurt someone
Sorry if I missed anything I am not on the forum all the time
I was expecting an update with a rehab approach to the kissing spines ie long lining getting him building muscle and building his top line etc
I hope I haven’t upset you but seeing some bloke standing on his back isn’t what I was expecting
I do think you are wonderful but maybe misguided with the chap x

 

[Keith_Beef]

Hi guys,

Happy Sunday! Hope you are all well.

What a day I have had!!!!! I enlisted the help of a jockey to help me with Prince - I wanted to see how he reacted with someone confident!

This guy had him trotting around a busy roundabout with 30 minutes of meeting him! I couldn’t believe my eyes! He stood on his back, mounted from the floor with no stirrups, flapped a branch of leaves around him while riding and Prince didn’t bat an eye lid!

Then he asked me to get my hat, and I rode him for the first time in 6 months!

Am so happy! He is going to work with us every day from now on and said that Prince was a wonderful sort who just needed firm handling. Even my daughter rode him again!

It’s been the most amazing day. ???

What a great turnaround!

Who's that jumping onto Prince's back in a skirt?

 

[Dasher66]

Confidence.
Go girl go!

 

[ycbm]

Hi Keira

firstly i want to say you are the most amazing owner and I know you love Prince more than anything ? but if Prince has kissing spines, a guy ‘with a firm approach’ is not the way forward eventually if your horse is in pain he will explode and hurt someone
Sorry if I missed anything I am not on the forum all the time
I was expecting an update with a rehab approach to the kissing spines ie long lining getting him building muscle and building his top line etc
I hope I haven’t upset you but seeing some bloke standing on his back isn’t what I was expecting
I do think you are wonderful but maybe misguided with the chap x

I'm really sorry Keira, I too think you have been a wonderful owner for Prince, but this is not the way to rehab a horse with kissing spines which were about to be medicated by your vet, you've been badly advised there.

 

[Tihamandturkey]

I'm really sorry Keira, I too think you have been a wonderful owner for Prince, but this is not the way to rehab a horse with kissing spines which were about to be medicated by your vet, you've been badly advised there.

Oh dear - I agree with this ?

 

[poiuytrewq]

I didn’t realise he has KS
That changes things but I wouldn’t diss the guy instantly for standing. Did he know the horse had back issues?

 

[nikicb]

Oh, I actually thought you had been hacked when you posted this. This just doesn't sit right. I thought you had retired Prince.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Kissing spine? And he stood on his back? What did the vet say to do? I would be unhappy with anyone standing on him, even if he was perfectly healthy. Just why? Do you think the bloke was too strong with him? I’ve known horses in pain that do as asked when the rider is just really strong/forceful.

 

[GrassChop]

Haven't kept up with the other threads but I thought he was retired too or is he being rehabbed? Either way, well done for getting back on and helping him!

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

You have been an absolute star with Prince from the word go but I do have concerns that you may be being swayed off course a little here. Though Prince may appear to be tolerating all of this at present there is a very real chance that this could go very, very wrong. I would hate for you to have all of your wonderful work undone, even with the best of intentions xx

 

[Keira 8888]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your replies, yes, totally get where you’re coming from.

Basically he hasn’t been diagnosed yet with kissing spines, in order to get the diagnosis the vet needs to see him ridden before and after local anaesthetic is injected into the spine.

Because I was too nervous to get on I enlisted the help of a professional rider - the lady I had been hoping to do it said she was too booked up so I happened to mention to my local feed shop lady (someone very well known in the area and trusted) what I was looking for. She also knows my entire journey with Prince which is great.

To be honest, when the chap arrived I wasn’t expecting him to even get on, just to come and meet us. But he was absolutely amazing with Prince, I’ve never seen him so calm while being handled and tacked up.

I was stupid to show you guys those particular photos without explaining more - I’m sorry guys. The chap had ridden him and warmed him up in many many ways before this - he was firm but very kind with Prince and assessing his response to things at all points.

But yes, I can completely understand that this is not the kind of photo one would expect to see with a horse under back investigation. I can assure you that he was completely warmed up and handled with great care throughout the session.

Completely my fault to hit you all with that photo! If I had shown more videos of what went on previously I think it would give you all a slightly clearer idea of the rider in question and his horsemanship.

I will keep you posted on how we get on as he is going to work with us every day now.

Thanks again for all your replies
Kxx



Because

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I’m glad you like the trainer but the phrase ‘just needs firm handling’ rings alarm bells in a horse with Prince’s history. If a horse shows a pain response and receives ‘firm handling’ they very often stoically accept it - a sort of learned helplessness. Until one day sometimes they don’t and explode. And even if that doesn’t happen I would never want my horses to stop expressing how they feel in the only way they can - via behaviours.

3 previous horses of mine became unrideable through injury - I initially was told all 3 just needed a firm hand. Max went from apparent acceptance of a rider to rearing over backwards on concrete seconds after being mounted (with a pro on board) with almost no warning.

Of course a brief post and one line in a long conversation can’t possibly tell the whole story. Perhaps Prince is now pain free and he is being helped with remembered pain? But it is very, very common for pain behaviour to be seen as needing correction rather than understanding and investigations so just be careful. Good luck and I hope it works out for you all.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I will keep you posted on how we get on as he is going to work with us every day now.

Oh dear . You really have been led up the garden path with this new 'professional'. I, too, thought that Prince was in happy retirement.

Standing on the horse's back? Pure 'look at me' machismo, nothing to do with rehab.

This is not going to end well for you or for Prince unless you sack this person off right now. Prince will maybe handle the 'firm' handling until his break point is reached, and then he will explode.

 

[J&S]

I'm mind blown too. I cannot imagine why you would let some man stand on your horse's back.

 

[ycbm]

Basically he hasn’t been diagnosed yet with kissing spines, in order to get the diagnosis the vet needs to see him ridden before and after local anaesthetic is injected into the spine.

Keira you have recently posted x rays showing close dorsal spinal processes and the white spots caused by DSP impingement.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/any-ks-x-ray-experts-out-there.810476/

Kissing spines is not in doubt, the only thing in doubt is whether he is pain free enough now to ride him.

Please don't trust this man. Vaulting on from the floor and standing on the back with a two point loading is not the way to rehab kissing spines to bring a retired horse with a history of kissing spines and explosive behaviour back into work.
.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Oh I remember your post now - why are tou kidding yourself into thinking that your horse doesn't have a kissing spine when the x ray was rather clear?
You've allowed this horse to be bullied into behaving, despite the pain he is in. Mind blown , indeed.

If you've changed your mind about retiring him , you need his spine treated (surgery ?) And then rehabbed. Firm handling has no place in this!

Injecting the spine is nothing to do with diagnosing a kissing spine. It is a fork of treatment to try and control the pain and inflammation in the spine.

Very disappointed by this post.

 

[Trouper]

Oh Keira - I am afraid that I am with everyone else who has expressed concerns about this approach to Prince.

I know when we feel under-confident or under-qualified to do things with our horses it is all too easy to attribute "hero" status to others who seem to be able to do it with ease. I am sure your rider did warm him up properly and all the other good things but, as @Ambers Echo has so clearly outlined, horses are experts at hiding discomfort and pain. Prince may not be feeling it now but more regular work may ignite it, so please be careful.

Are you familiar with the work done on how horses express pain through their facial expressions and subtle behaviours? It is worth exploring and then, when Prince is ridden again, don't look at how his body is moving all the time - look at his face and see how he is reacting there.

Above all, be guided by your vet on the sort of work Prince can do - and no one else. Personally I would not stand on the spine of the healthiest, strongest horse in the world and anyone who did that to mine would never come near him again. The forces concentrated down through a single point of contact are far, far greater than the dispersed weight of the average rider..

I am sorry so many of us are raining on your parade - but we are truly supportive of the wonderful work you have done with Prince so far - and we all want that journey to continue!!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Oh Keira - I am afraid that I am with everyone else who has expressed concerns about this approach to Prince.

I know when we feel under-confident or under-qualified to do things with our horses it is all too easy to attribute "hero" status to others who seem to be able to do it with ease. I am sure your rider did warm him up properly and all the other good things but, as @Ambers Echo has so clearly outlined, horses are experts at hiding discomfort and pain. Prince may not be feeling it now but more regular work may ignite it, !!

I made exactly that mistake. Sent Amber away to a pro while I was injured, trusting his assessment of her being ‘wilful’ and me needing to be more firm. She came back totally stressed. And lame. She’s never been ridden again. He didn’t cause her injury but he aggravated it and caused her mental stress. All with a patient manner and the best of intentions. Please don’t make the same mistake.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

A friend had a pony who would plant with her but not with a pro rider so for a long time thought pony was taking the p with her. Turns out she had grade 4 ulcers. The pro rider was just more effective at riding the pony through it…

 

[Winters100]

Keira you are a really wonderful owner, but I'm afraid I echo the advice from the others that you have been taken in by this trainer. Standing on the back is never a good idea, and you risk doing great harm to a horse who you love very much. It is not firm handling he needs, but careful handling to make sure that he is not simply tolerating pain. Sorry to be negative, but I know that you are doing your best by him and would want to know x

 

[Upthecreek]

Any ‘pro’ that wanted to stand on a horse’s back would be shown the door immediately by me, but on a horse with Prince’s history…… my mind is blown. Horses will put up with all manner of unpleasant things when they are bullied into it and they don’t have the option to say no. But eventually most end up saying no in a big way, often with unpleasant consequences for themselves and the rider. If you are intent on riding Prince I absolutely definitely would not put your child on him until he has been in consistent ridden work with no issues for a lengthy period of time and certainly not after one session with this male rider.

 

[Keira 8888]

Hi guys,

I totally understand everything you are saying.

Just want to say, the point of this chap getting on Prince was purely so that I had someone to ride him as the vet won’t diagnose kissing spines on the X-rays alone. They have to see the difference in his ridden performance before and after local anaesthetic.

I didn’t ask this guy to ride him through his bad behaviour as a solution to it - it was merely a way for the vet to see someone on his back. And as he was recommended to me by someone I highly trust I thought I would give it a go.

I can’t claim for any further treatment for his back until I have a diagnosis. Everything way in which he interacted with Prince with the exception of the standing on his back and mounting without a block was kind and professional.

I do absolutely agree that standing on a horse with kissing spines is not good. Having read all your replies carefully I now have a lot to think about. He is due to come again today and I will discuss this with him.

I completely understand what you guys are saying about the standing on Princes back. To be honest, it all happened so quickly I had no time to question it. And this was after a highly successful session where I had utter trust in what the chap had been doing with Prince up to that point.

I will proceed with great caution and I take everything you have said on board.
Kx

 

[Goldenstar]

GET HIS BACK Xrayed .