Mind blown!!!!!!!!

[Sossigpoker]

GET HIS BACK Xrayed .

She has

 

[flying_high]

Another who isn’t sure about this. Can you get a second opinion local to you / maybe speak to your vet, ask for a phone discussion.

I would expect any horse that has been out of work to be slowly strengthened, and brought back into work. I wouldn’t expect 3 different riders, and the standing on his back on day one.

And it is huge red flag for a horse with kissing spine showing on the x-rays.

How much back muscle and topline does he have at the moment? How confident are you that his facial expressions and eyes are happy with this process?

What does your physio / bodyworker of choice think about his back at the moment, and his back after being ridden? Is there any muscle soreness? Do they think he is strong enough for ridden work?

I *do* think it is possible he has learnt (maybe through pain) some bad behaviour, and the pain may or may not still be there. He might massively benefit from a clear, firm, decisive, fair approach and clear leadership. He might be happy to be ridden now, or he might not.

Some horses have terrible kissing spine x-rays and don’t have pain. Some have moderate x-rays and have violent pain.

 

[GrassChop]

GET HIS BACK Xrayed .

It has been I believe on a previous thread.

 

[Keira 8888]

Another who isn’t sure about this. Can you get a second opinion local to you / maybe speak to your vet, ask for a phone discussion.

I would expect any horse that has been out of work to be slowly strengthened, and brought back into work. I wouldn’t expect 3 different riders, and the standing on his back on day one.

And it is huge red flag for a horse with kissing spine showing on the x-rays.

How much back muscle and topline does he have at the moment? How confident are you that his facial expressions and eyes are happy with this process?

What does your physio / bodyworker of choice think about his back at the moment, and his back after being ridden? Is there any muscle soreness? Do they think he is strong enough for ridden work?

I *do* think it is possible he has learnt (maybe through pain) some bad behaviour, and the pain may or may not still be there. He might massively benefit from a clear, firm, decisive, fair approach and clear leadership. He might be happy to be ridden now, or he might not.

Some horses have terrible kissing spine x-rays and don’t have pain. Some have moderate x-rays and have violent pain.

Yes completely understand. Leading up to yesterday I have been working with him every day (over the past few months) doing in hand walks up hills and lots of pole work recommended by his physio.

Over the time I’ve had Prince I’ve learnt that his facial expressions are very indicative of how he is feeling - if he is in pain (say with the farrier, before I had his shoes taken off) his lower lip moves very quickly and his eyes widen. I was watching him closely yesterday and he showed none of those signs which led me to think he was comfortable with things. Obviously I 100% accept now that the standing in the back, whether he showed discomfort or not, was a bad move.

I will call my vet today to explain everything that has gone on. The next step is for them to come and inject his back.

I’m sorry now for posting these pictures, it was very ignorant of me. I’m embarrassed to say I got extremely overwhelmed and excited with seeing him ridden again.

Ive always tried to put Prince first in our journey of ups and downs, I got it wrong yesterday when I didn’t immediately appreciate the potential consequences of someone standing on his back.

Another lesson learned. Xx

 

[paddi22]

it can be easy to kind of get carried along with the flow, especially with very forceful professionals. and in hindsight you can look back at something that happened over a few seconds and think it mightn't be the wisest choice looking back.

one of the most important lesson I ever learnt was that I am the person who advocates for my horse. so I'm a lot stronger now in situations standing my ground and pushing back on something that in my gut I know isn't in the best interest of my horse.

I'd be another just gently suggesting that 'being more forceful' isn't always a good thing. I got told SO many times by professionals to ride my rearing horse through bad behaviour and not be so soft on him. I cringe now when I think how he was trying to communicate his discomfort and I was ignoring it and making it worse. You can only learn these things through experience though, and you are learning so much as you go through this process with Prince.

 

[LegOn]

I think we have experienced a moment of madness when it comes to horses and done something that only with hindsight (and usually some helpful friends!) you realise might not have been the best idea!

I think everyone has covered all the bases here on opinions about 'professionals' etc and I do think you have taken it all on board. Its hard when you want something so much and you see it happening before your eyes that your brain gets a load of stupid happy hormones and you go along with it - its part of the human condition, dont beat yourself up over and I think everyone has given good helpful advice, sometimes we need to take a breath and just assess things a bit quicker & also say when we arent happy but its not easy!

I had a lesson with some 'pro' riders and she offered to ride my horse to 'figure him out' - 45 mins later, I had tears streaming down my face and her aggressively telling me everything he & me are doing wrong & barely a squeak came out my mouth - I should have stopped her about 30 mins before it did but when someone is shouting aggressive about all the horrible things you are & he is & how to make it all better, I actually was so unbelievably crushed I could barely speak. So look it happens to us, we dont say things when we should.

Take some time to write everything down that you want for Prince - work out the best way to get there with people you trust while still questioning everything & learning as much as you can from them - dont take everything as the correct action without just questioning very action and what its purpose is, its intended outcome and expectations etc - just be thorough, even if it sounds stupid, ask it! Or even imagine to yourself - if you had to explain this on H&H forum, would you be able to answer every question thrown at you!!! LOL! Just be the objective person for yourself, it can help you see it from all angles.

 

[babymare]

Hey Keira. Let’s draw a line under the weekend and move on ? it’s great you are speaking with your vet about what happened. You have done so damn well with Prince. I think all of us have got carried away in a “moment” at some point and made a “wrong” decision. So onwards and upwards and carry on giving Prince the wonderful love and care that you do ?xx

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I just have to add this (I am sure you have read quite enough!) You are probably one of the most caring owners on here Keira and also come across as so eager to learn and improve your knowledge with horse ownership. If only there were more like you out there.

I have the experience of nearly 7 decades with horses and I managed to get swept up in awe by a so called professional rider just a few short years ago. It didn't end well for the rider when I realised what was going on with my poor horse. I got that very wrong and it still fills me with guilt.

Don't beat yourself up over this, perhaps a bit of misjudgement on your part that is all, but I am sure nothing earth shattering has happened because of it. Good luck with where you go with it all from here, but I am sure you will do what is right for Prince as you always have done.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

GET HIS BACK Xrayed .

It has been, YCBM has posted a link to the x-rays up thread.

I am with everyone else on this one. You don't need a pro to work with you every day if you are riding him with the sole intention of diagnosis for the vet, and he certainly doesn't need to be mounting from the floor which I think is more insane than standing on him (or equally, insane all the same). He surely needs to ride him once before and once after. I don't see the sense in this method of diagnosis anyway, as you can train a horse not to be too reactive to something if you are a good enough rider, to a certain extent anyway as a poster up thread has said re: grade 4 ulcers. So what evidence does it show, unless you have a horse flip with you before and stay up right after anaesthetic. But then again I am no vet so..

Nothing against you as an owner Keira, you are wonderful and always do your best. Everyone has been criminal of putting a little too much faith in a pro at times, myself included.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'm surprised the vet needs to see horse ridden for a KS diagnosis. Is that SOP? One at my yard was recently taken to the vet school for a KS diagnosis. She's been out of ridden work for a while, and I don't believe that the vets asked to see her ridden. Don't think her owner would have been keen to get on.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Novice owners (I hope you don’t mind me referring to you as one, I am one too!) can go one of two ways I find. They’re either pig ignorant and ignore advice (both well meaning and not) or they are well aware of their inexperience and rely perhaps too much on advice purely because it is from someone they deem more experienced.

the fact you are the latter is testament to your kind character and desire for the best for Prince. Chalk it up to experience, have a chat with your vet and keep putting Prince first

 

[ycbm]

GET HIS BACK Xrayed .

The x rays are clear, the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company, I believe, is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet.
.

 

[Caol Ila]

The x rays are clear, the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company, I believe, is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet.
.

Has Keira started a 'loss of use' claim? I don't quite get why the insurance company would need proof that the kissing spines are causing behaviour issues. "Let's get on its back and see if it rears over backwards...Whoops." Seems like a dangerous approach. Surely, if the x-rays show KS, then he has KS.

 

[quizzie]

The x rays are clear, the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company, I believe, is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet.
.

The X-rays show evidence of impingement of the spinous processes, what they cannot determine is whether this is the cause of the behaviour problems...some horses with those level of changes may have major clinical issues, in others they may be largely asymptomatic.
Given that insurance companies frequently will not pay out for investigation of behavioural issues where no clinical reason is found, it is probable that the vet is looking to see the horse ridden, then inject local anaesthetic, and observe for changes in said behaviour to prove that that is the site of pain.
This is entirely separate from possible therapeutic injections to treat the issue.

 

[Keith_Beef]

just be thorough, even if it sounds stupid,

It can be hard to ask questions, but on the other hand you pay for expert advice, so the expert should be prepared to answer any and every question you want to ask.

 

[Upthecreek]

It’s always worth remembering that people give advice and make recommendations with good intentions, but sometimes without knowing the horse or the full story. I have learnt that the hard way over the years and there are very few people that I would now trust implicitly to give me advice about my horses.

What I am confused about though is the pro rode Prince and he did not show any discomfort or pain related behaviour to KS that showed on the x-rays, so if the vet now injects him with local anaesthetic it doesn’t prove anything. I must be missing something.

 

[I don’t like mondays]

If Prince has been reactive under saddle due to pain, please don’t feel you have to ride him (and put yourself at risk) so the vet can do a nerve block. Explain to the vet the previous issues you’ve had and I’m sure they can find another way to diagnose. My horse had KS (has had surgery). Can the vet do a bone scan instead? I would’ve thought X-rays showing close DSPs and white areas and a history of difficult behaviour under saddle should be enough to diagnose kissing spine. What X-rays won’t do is show whether the behaviour/pain is purely down to KS or something else too (KS tends to come hand in hand with other things like PSD, hocks, SI). Don’t be afraid to change vets because not all vets are kissing spine experts. Good luck, your horse is very lucky to have you

 

[poiuytrewq]

The x rays are clear, the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company, I believe, is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet.
.

Ahh that makes sense. All the KS horses I’ve known have been diagnosed with X-rays alone so I was confused as to the riding and injecting bit.

 

[Trouper]

When I was out of riding action and my horse needed a lameness work up, one of the vet nurses at the practice rode him so that the vet could do the "under saddle" part. Any good vet practice should be able to do this for you if you do not feel able to do it yourself.

 

[teddypops]

I'm surprised the vet needs to see horse ridden for a KS diagnosis. Is that SOP? One at my yard was recently taken to the vet school for a KS diagnosis. She's been out of ridden work for a while, and I don't believe that the vets asked to see her ridden. Don't think her owner would have been keen to get on.

That’s what I thought. I don’t know any vet who would willingly put a rider into a possibly dangerous situation. Vets diagnose from xrays all the time.

 

[Keira 8888]

I did think it was quite odd, but I didn’t really push the issue to be honest.

I’ve just returned from our second session and it was incredible - Prince walked out beautifully and I also rode with no fear for the first time.

I understand everyone’s misgivings - I think I should have shared all the great things that he achieved rather than that silly photo. For those that are interested I will continue to share our progress! Just wanted to say that I understand and appreciate every single opinion that I get on this forum, I may not always like it (like a stubborn child) but I do listen and take it onboard.

Thanks for your replies
Kx

 

[Annagain]

Keira, as ever you have really impressed me with the grace and humility with which you accept constructive criticism and advice from others. It pays ten fold as I've also noticed everybody offers that criticism and advice in a particularly kind way. If only all threads were as positive all round.

 

[ycbm]

Please be careful Keira, none of us want to see you hurt. This isn't about whether or not a man stood on Prince's back.

This is a picture of my horse with kissing spines.




The dressage judge's comment when she saw me in the cafe was "he needs a man on him". At this point in time, he regularly scored 7s and 8s for his work and he never did this at home, he was a gentle soul. It was only when he had the additional stress of competing and having to do things at particular markers rather than when he felt at a perfect point for me to ask, that he exploded like this. It would come out of nowhere, no warning.

The first time he showed obvious discomfort at home in spite of being warmed with heat lamps, I had him x rayed and kissing spines were found. They were injected with steroids and pain killers and for about a week he was a different horse. Then the painkillers wore off, and from that point on he was unrideable at home.

The only way I can interpret this is that he was used to a level of pain which had grown gradually over time. He thought it was normal, and unless he was stressed by competition, he tolerated it. Then it was taken away and he realised what life was supposed to be like, and refused to go back to accepting the pain like he had before.

I fear for you that Prince will one day reach the end of his stoicism and put you into orbit. I know I'm raining on your parade here Keira, and putting doubts into your mind that, if you are going to ride him, you need not to have in your head. I'm really sorry to do that to anyone. But Prince has a long history since before you bought him and continuing after you bought him which suggest to me and others on the forum that there is a real possibility that he is in pain and that it could result in you being hurt.

Please take care.
.

 

[I'm Dun]

I am really sorry to say this, but I have been asked by someone who is very local and doesnt want any backlash, to post about this.

This guy is to be avoided at all costs. The person has seen him at close quarters working with owners and horses. He can be ok when an owner is present, but definitely isnt when they arent. He is very heavy handed and rough. Not the sort of person you want to work with any horse, but definiely not one with a potential issue.

I have sent you a PM kiera and am happy to get you any more info you need, but I cannot say this strongly enough dont allow this man to work with Prince

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’ve just returned from our second session and it was incredible - Prince walked out beautifully and I also rode with no fear for the first time.

You intend to continue with this person? Oh dear.

I thought you'd had second thoughts. I hope that your personal accident insurance is fully up to date.

 

[Red-1]

I saw this yesterday and was taken aback. But, I didn't comment as I wasn't sure that I had anything positive to say.

No one can definitively say what is right and what is wrong.

Some horses get a lot better with rest, which Prince has had. Sometimes that improvement stays. Sometimes they get sore again and the bad behaviour returns. Sometimes it returns with a bang, without warning. That can sometimes cause injuries.

With others, I have ridden some 'naughty' horses for owners that, once I had squared them up, in the nicest possible way, they stayed 'fixed' as they had got into an unhelpful pattern of behaviour, I changed that pattern by riding the horse, I then worked with the owners to maintain it.

I have stood on my horse's back. It didn't seem to cause harm. I don't do it as a regular thing. I did it once with one horse.

I think you have acted to the best of your ability on all dealings with Prince. I, personally, think this current one is a dodgy course of action, but I am not there. What I do know though, is that this is another of those defining moments, where you are the one who owns Prince. You are the one watching the sessions. You are the one who rode him and can feel what is happening. This is horse ownership. You taking the responsibility, you making the decisions.

You wanted horse ownership. This is it. I am sometimes not sure what to do with my horses. All I can do, you can do, anyone can do, is their best. I would advise an open mind. Keep reviewing with every new piece of information.

 

[Laurac13]

Keira please be careful if Prince rears like Ycbm’s horse did in that photo a less experienced rider could easily pull the horse over onto of them whilst holding onto the reins trying to stay on. A 600kg horse landing on you could very likely have life changing injuries.

 

[Upthecreek]

It is easy (and sometimes dangerous) to be swept up in what ‘professionals’ say they can do for you. But we have to remember as an owner of any animal that we are ultimately responsible for everything that happens to them and all decisions regarding their care and training. We have to be their advocate because they cannot speak for themselves.

I’m not sure I’m explaining this very well Keira, but what I’m trying to say is you should never be afraid to speak up if someone is doing something you don’t agree with, whether that be vet or pro rider. Don’t feel you can’t say anything because they are supposedly more knowledgeable and experienced than you. You are paying them to provide a service and you should question anything you don’t understand or doesn’t seem right and put a stop to anything you are not happy with.

 

[Tihamandturkey]

I am really sorry to say this, but I have been asked by someone who is very local and doesnt want any backlash, to post about this.

This guy is to be avoided at all costs. The person has seen him at close quarters working with owners and horses. He can be ok when an owner is present, but definitely isnt when they arent. He is very heavy handed and rough. Not the sort of person you want to work with any horse, but definiely not one with a potential issue.

I have sent you a PM kiera and am happy to get you any more info you need, but I cannot say this strongly enough dont allow this man to work with Prince

Unfortunately that's exactly what I would have guessed looking the "standing on back picture" alone ?

 

[Nasicus]

Please be careful Keira, remember it was only just over a year ago you were writing this:

Everything went beautifully at first, he left the field without too much of a battle and happily picked his feet up for me to pick out. Stood calmly to be groomed and tacked up. It was all going so so well. Then I mounted in the yard and walked him down to the school - after a few steps he did two little bucks and then when I tried to gentle push him on he reared right up - all I could see was blue sky. My YO said I was a hairs breath from him coming over backwards.

I am too scared to try again as he has reared several times now. He has had his teeth checked, his back checked, a recent physical examination from the vet in which he Was given the all clear. ( this wasn’t a FULL vetting though, he just did some physical examinations eg legs, heart, ears, eyes.

My YO is now refusing to ride him again which I totally understand. He says he is a dangerous horse and something very bad will happen soon if we persist.

And I don't think any true action has been taken to resolve his kissing spines since then besides some x-rays. You are still sitting on that same horse.