Mis sold a pony?

[Franob]

OP, have you spoken the the 'real' owner at all - the breeder that loaned this pony out? If I was in your situation I would want to speak to that person - firstly to corroborate the 'sellers' story of her personality etc and the passing of the monies. But mainly to check that she did have the legal right to sell her.

I'm sorry, but the first thing that screamed at me from the changing story was that it would be very easy for this woman to have sold on a loan pony without the owners knowledge/consent. I don't see why she wouldn't have mentioned this previously if it was all above board - it wouldn't have put anyone off if it is a genuine story and could be checked out.

It sounds like your pony is coming good, which is wonderful, but having said that her latest 'reason' makes her more akin to a dealer - think of a sales livery - especially when you consider she is a stud etc already.

I would hate to see you do the work to settle her in, get attached and then find an issue of ownership rearing its head.

 

[Caol Ila]

I agree. This latest text makes it sound really dodgy. I'd contact the alleged "owner." If I had a horse given to me on loan or consignment or whatever for training and then selling, informing potential buyers that I wasn't the owner seems like one of those critical pieces of information that should be passed on. Conversely, if I bought a horse from someone who I *thought* was the owner and then learned weeks after I brought the horse home that they weren't, I'd be a little concerned. It is also a little bit worrying that the story seems to be rapidly changing in response to behaviour problems on the part of the pony and threats of legal action on your part.

Who's name is on the passport?

 

[AmyMay]

Who's name is on the passport?

How is this relevant?

 

[Honey08]

Even if she wasn't helpful, and is doing all she can to just get you off her back, it doesn't sound as though she was lying - the pony, as it has more time to settle, is turning out to be the pony that was sold, not a raving monster, just a sad, scared little thing that was pushed too far too soon in its new home. I don't think this would win now if it went to court.. Better to focus on the way forward, not the way back.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'm not from here so I may have to claim ignorance. All I know for sure about passports was that I had to get one when my horse had been in the UK for 30 days and my vet signs it when he vaccinates her.

Anyway, I thought that in addition to a vaccination history, they showed the current and previous owners of the horse. Am I wrong? I've never bought a horse in Britain so I haven't a clue if you would transfer the name on one or whatever.

 

[AmyMay]

I'm not from here so I may have to claim ignorance. All I know for sure about passports was that I had to get one when my horse had been in the UK for 30 days and my vet signs it when he vaccinates her.

Anyway, I thought that in addition to a vaccination history, they showed the current and previous owners of the horse. Am I wrong? I've never bought a horse in Britain so I haven't a clue if you would transfer the name on one or whatever.

A passport is not proof of ownership.

 

[Miss L Toe]

How is this relevant?

If the person you gave the money to [eeks], who first told you she had spent it , now says it was not her pony to sell !!!!! just make sure you ignore her response.
She is the person with whom you had a legal contract at the time of purchase, even if she is acting as an agent, there is no way she can wriggle out of her culpability.
Perhaps you could tell us the postcode!!!
Passport is not PROOF of ownership, legally, but it is a good guide as to history, as it should be altered when horse moves around.
You should advise the Inland Revenue of her activities, but wait for a few months as she can backtrack at this stage, it is quite likely she has used this "excuse" before with other ponies, I suspect if this is the case you will not get any update from the PC people.
As a trader she should have charged VAT, even on commission, I suspect she asked for CASH, Customs and Excise will be ecstatic!

 

[NeverSayNever]

given the pony is a sec c, the passport will require a signature from the actual owner in order to transfer ownership, hmmmm

 

[Miss L Toe]

given the pony is a sec c, the passport will require a signature from the actual owner in order to transfer ownership, hmmmm

Maybe, but only if the cob is registered, OP is not an experienced purchaser of Welsh Cobs. I do a good signature of my Dad!

 

[NeverSayNever]

Maybe, but only if the cob is registered, OP is not an experienced purchaser of Welsh Cobs. I do a good signature of my Dad!

of'c only if its registered... i meant it as a point of leverage for the OP

 

[Miss L Toe]

of'c only if its registered... i meant it as a point of leverage for the OP

Yes, I know, but unless OP wants to go to court, and I don't think many people would want to [this is what the "seller" is banking on], imho OP is best NOT to get involved in argy bargy, the horse was represented as for sale by the person who showed her the pony.
What I am saying is, that there will be one of two outcomes, the most likely is that OP will keep pony and will either have to sell/give it away, or will keep it. The second outcome is that she goes to court, in order to re-coup expenses and get shot of pony.
In my opinion IF she wants to get rid of the pony, and it may come to that, the best route is to threaten with IR and VAT man. AND if she wants to "get back" at "seller" she should inform Customs and Excise and IR. This will stop them doing this to other people, believe me, it will.

 

[Louisejane]

Firstly, I'm agreed on taking the softly softly approach, The 13 year old has agreed and really wants to work with my daughter so that they can gently work with her. My daughter is going to spend lots of time with her on the ground and we'll just see where we get. TBH, given what my daughter has seen, I'm not even 100% sure that she will ever want her to be her first pony as the confidence issue will always be there, there are times in the future when she will need to be strong with her and theres a good chance that she'll always be scared of kicking her on or using a whip incase this weeks behaviour happens again. Having said that, if she does "come good" over time, I can always look for an experienced home that will take the time to settle her in before riding her.

We would never have ridden her the day after she arrived had the previous owner not advised us to. She said the sooner the better as she likes to work and is very accustomed to being in different environments.

The passport does not have the previous owners name on! It has one name on who I assume is the breeder. The date of transfer was 2007 but there is no new owner name entered? Just gets stranger to me.

What I do find odd is the vaccination record, there is yearly records from 2010 for tet and flu but they all say that the location was Paddock Hall, Morpeth??? Do I get my detective cap on and call them?

 

[be positive]

This gets more complicated if she was sold by the breeder in 2007 she must be owned by someone during the time since, is the passport signed and stamped by the WPCS, she was only a yearling then. I assume Morpeth is not where you bought her from, where was she for her most recent jab and when was it?

The vets will not give out info on owners so probably not a route you can use but may tell your vet who and where the pony was at the time.
It is possible she was either sold from the ad as a 4 year old or been on loan during the last year or two and just come back to be sold but the story still does not add up there are too many loose ends.

 

[Louisejane]

No, Morpeth is not where we bought her from. The previous owner told me that she loaned her directly from the breeder in Dec 2007 and she has been with her since.

Paddock farm is an equestrian centre that also buys and sells horses from what I can see. Just tried calling them now and theres no answer but I'll keep on trying.

On her passport it has her registered name, foaled in May 2006 and signed by The Welsh Pony & Cob Society dated Nov 2006 and the breeder and owners name is the same as is on the transfer of ownership in December 2007.

 

[be positive]

I have just looked and see that it is an Equestrian centre, so phone them and see if they can tell you more about her.

 

[Louisejane]

Sorry, forgot to add that the only medical history on there is for Flu and tet in 2010, and then in 2011, all at this Paddock Hall, Morpeth.

 

[be positive]

Sorry cross posted, keep trying there is something wrong here and the more info the better, whichever way you go.

 

[Louisejane]

Its certainly teaching me to do my homework first next time!!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Not related to the thread, but is rearing in the field an arab thing? My new mare rears with her front legs out straight, I think she wants to audition for the next remake of The Lord of the Rings!!

.

In order of 'loving to rear' my old retired TB comes top. She can walk along on her back legs if she's particually excited.

Then the grey, who needed alot of training when she was a yearling because she would rear when you tried to lead her back to her field. However, she's being backed ATM and has never shown any signs (so far) of rearing under saddle.

My chestnut mare (anglo arab) much prefers to buck when she's having a good hooley, infact I've never seen her rear loose. It is very easy to make her rear under saddle however, through bad 'handy' riding. She will also rear if pressured too much when going past a scary object ('I don't want to go past it, but you're kicking me on, so I'll go up instead'), so knowing when to just wait and let her have a moment, before asking again, is important.

My chestnut gelding isn't a rearer - he's a prancer but as he's only two, I've no idea how he'll be under saddle.

Well aside from the previous owner being about as helpful as a chocolate fireguard, we have had an improvement!

We spent ages with her last night, she was laid in the field looking as miserable as sin when we turned up and I just felt absolutely rotten for her. She couldn't even be bothered to get up when I reached her So we spent a lot of pampering time with her, talking and grooming and just sypamthising with her I guess.

Our braveheart 13 year old has taken such a shine to her and asked if she could work slowly with her, so she took her into the arena and stood with her and watched while other riders worked with their horses. When she rode her she had no whip and just took things easy. She was lovely!! No rearing or bucking, no stresses and the biggest thing was she had lost that "look in her eye", not a hint of whiteness showing. They just had fun!! She popped a couple of small crosspoles and thoroughly praised her throughout for her great behaviour.

I know its not problem solved just yet but its a huge leap forward and I feel so relieved that it does look like a matter of a very unsettled little pony. She looked to actually enjoy herself last night though so hopefully she is gradually getting accustomed to her new surroundings.

I'm still miffed at the OS for the lack of help or assistance, she could have made things easier for us and the poor pony but I'm hoping now that there is promise of a nice future for the poor thing.

I am so glad to read this. Well done for not giving up on her. I hope that with time she feels totally secure with you and that your daughter gets the lovely sweet pony back that you tried. Please keep us updated and as Amymay said, a photo would be nice.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Its certainly teaching me to do my homework first next time!!

It matter little, if someone is out to "do you" they will have answers to everything you ask.

 

[Patterdale]

Sounding fishier than Seaworld.....can you talk to the breeder/'real' owner?

 

[Louisejane]

I've just spoken to the breeder and they confirmed that they SOLD her in 2007 as a yearling but is calling me back when she has the details of the person they sold her to.

 

[Patterdale]

Ok...but surely if they've sold her then why would the woman say shed handed the money straight to them?
She sounds VERY dodgy - my bullcrap radar would be on high!

FWIW OP I agree with the above poster - you can do all the homework you like but if someones out to do you then they will have all the answers ready

 

[Patterdale]

....so don't be too hard on yourself!

 

[Louisejane]

Well, if the breeder confirms she was sold on then the original owner has already lied to me about being on loan. Its more likely that she has been sold on a few times since the breeder but will have to wait and see.

I'm quickly turning from one of those people who see no reason for others to lie which is a shame for me, the bad are always the minority, they are just attracted to the mug sign on my forehead

 

[Louisejane]

It does help hearing everyones stories, even experienced people can have the wool pulled over their eyes, which I wouldn't wish on anyone but it does reassure me.

 

[PeterNatt]

The veterinary practice or vet would be obliged to divulge the name and contact details of the person who had instructed them to vacinate the horse if a crime is thought to have been commited.

 

[Kallibear]

It'll be interesting to get to the bottom of the issue, but it's not going to help the pony. I suspect that, even armed with evidence, you'll need to take legal action against the seller to get anywhere.

The seller might be scum of the earth but it's shouldn't reflect on the pony. By the sound of it you're getting the nice sweet little horse back now she's settling and, despite all the cloak and dagger nonsense, you'll have a nice pony for a decent price.

As for your daughter gaining confidence, it'll come. As she gets to know the pony better, she'll start to trust her. Your little 13yr old rider can deal with any imminent temper tantrums (they WILL happen, they always do) until your daughter is confident enough to do it herself.

 

[Fellewell]

you say in your OP that you trialled her twice at her owners.

Were you led to believe that this 'agent' was the owner, because this would certainly negate their obligation for full and frank disclosure regarding her history.

As Peter Natt says contact the vet, their practice stamp should be next to the jabs in her passport.

 

[Dexter]

I'm local to all of this I think. I dont recognise the pony particularly, but I bet I know someone who does! Do you want to PM me the sellers details and I'll have an ask about on the quiet see what I can find out?