Modern Dressage

[eahotson]

Think you need to take a trip to a showjumping show to see really out there strange tack fitting or a fun ride before you descend from on high to denounce dressage across the board .

At one time I would have agreed whole heartedly with you there.There was a fashion for the most bizarre combination of bits,nosebands and martingales that you could hope to find.Think it may have improved on that front at least now.Having said which I don't go to shows that often now.Went to Bolesworth and saw well known show jumper up end his stick, lean over and give his horse a massive blow on the ribs with it.If I hit my dog like that she would have screamed and half the show ground would have tried to kill me, but hey ho its only a horse.

 

[eahotson]

Maybe the steward doing "the noseband check" could tell it wasnt tight by doing what they did - if a noseband is clearly loose it's pretty obvious.
I'll support an issue with incorrect and/or inappropriate tack - that's just not ok. Equally I knew a 3 year old, never had tack on that had damage to its nose from either birth or an accident as a foal - prominent dip where a noseband would go. Definitely wasnt a tight halter or noseband that caused it.
You've got an axe to grind clearly OP but you're going to need some actual evidence really

Oh I think there is plenty of evidence out there really. Chip on shoulder about animal abuse.Absolutely and no not solely about dressage.

 

[eahotson]

Have you witnessed that happening?
I still find it a rather big leap from finding marks/disfiguration on one horse and blaming the whole dressage industry.

 

[eahotson]

Yes it was on camera at the Horse of the Year show.

 

[eahotson]

Lot of defensiveness isn't there? Is it because you feel that there is a lot to defend?

 

[oldie48]

It's a good job most of us are not in the police as every time we came across a crime, we'd apply our own particulI am starting to find the constant

I have to say that stewards have a tough job.Some of these people are very wealthy and intitled and their attitude to anyone who frustrates them in anyway could be summed up as "Do you know who I am you silly little man/woman?"Do you know how easily I could ruin your career? Sadly,this attitude is seen lower down the levels as well.

Really? Just not my experience at all! Sure there's not a bit of personal prejudice creeping in or perhaps you mix with the wrong people. I know a lot of amateur and pro riders, also trainers and owners and they just seem to reflect people in general. some I'd be happy to spend a weekend in a caravan with and others I wouldn't choose to dine at a posh restaurant (with them paying) nothing to do with dressage, modern or not.

 

[Roxylola]

Lot of defensiveness isn't there? Is it because you feel that there is a lot to defend?

Nope, just looking for some actual evidence for your claims. You dont even have evidence of the claim you're making about the horse you started the post with. I'm fully in support of animal welfare, and making improvements to the way we look after our horses but that doesnt seem to be your goal here.

 

[scats]

Yes it was on camera at the Horse of the Year show.

I was referring to the “do you know who I am” part. Have you witnessed that happening or is that what you associate with modern dressage?

I suppose I look at it a different way. The situation with Andy Kocher doesn’t automatically make me wonder what the problem is with modern showjumping, it makes me wonder what’s wrong with Andy Kocher.
There’s good and bad in all horse sports. I do think dressage is doing more than some other equestrian sports to try and address this.

 

[milliepops]

Lot of defensiveness isn't there? Is it because you feel that there is a lot to defend?

no, i think it's just an over reaction to write off a whole discipline based on the a couple of unconfirmed incidents.

 

[Goldenstar]

No don’t I have anything to defend at all .
In fact as soon as soon as anyone starts to complain about modern dressage I sort of know I am dealing with someone with blinkers I was involved with top class dressage horses forty years ago and welfare is so much better now.
Any one who has studied historical dressage knows it was a nightmare for the horses .
I know because I have worked at the sharp end there’s masses of horrible poor care and bad tack in non competitive horses .
I find the emphasis on a few nose bands on a few horses frankly ridiculous.
Grackles where allowed in dressage when stress testing showed that a grackle exerts less pressure than a flash noseband but it’s much more fun to ignore that and pretend there’s some sort of conspiracy to make it easy to abuse horses .

 

[ihatework]

Lot of defensiveness isn't there? Is it because you feel that there is a lot to defend?

Nope. I think there is a whole host of welfare concerns, in both competitive horse sport and amateur ownership.

I just prefer to debate those topics with people who have the ability to vocalise the arguments in a balanced and coherent way. It also helps if those people have plenty of experience to draw on, although I have no issue with people indicating they are uncomfortable with some practices in horse sport.

What gets my goat is absolutely awful riders banging about on their horses back and hanging into the reins for balance, whilst spouting off about horse welfare. Completely oblivious to the fact that they are a contributor.

Rabbit hole time ?

 

[dorsetladette]

Yes it was on camera at the Horse of the Year show.

I don't believe the tack checks are done on camera. I think they are also done before the test is ridden. I also don't think riders often give interviews before they have ridden their test - it would be very distracting.

 

[Goldenstar]

They are done in a secure place after a very nasty accident three or for yeas ago .

 

[Kahlua]

Many times I see a thread started and I think to myself, what was the point that the OP was trying to get across here? In this instance I’m trying to work out if the post was started to get people to agree that dressage is a cruel sport, or for some other reason?

Without seeing pictures, before / after as well as more information on the horses’ history, xrays or veterinary feedback, I just don’t see how anyone can confirm or deny that the dent was caused by a noseband ??‍ If you truly believe it was caused by a noseband, and you are so shocked by it that you wanted to highlight the abuse by a former owner / rider, or if you want to instill change in the sport (as certainly there are many riders across all levels of riding, from grass-roots to professional, not just dressage, that ride with extremely tight noseband, drops, hanovarians, cranks, drawreins, other tools) I may have missed that part, as in my observation, whilst initially you were asking the question if this injury could be caused by a bridle, you quickly moved into saying it was definitely caused by a noseband, and did not want to hear any other possible explanations - so it’s no wonder some people got their backs up.

Again, putting a random post on H&H is not going to make any change. So I’m genuinely interested in understanding what your point of putting the title of “Modern Dressage” and then associating it with facial damage is all for? With regards to horse welfare the discussion should always remain open, but if you are trying to highlight tight nosebands as an issue, there are probably more effective avenues than this forum. If you honestly just wanted to know if other people had seen facial changes from tight nosebands than perhaps just let everyone share their experience (which was overwhelmingly no) and let it be at that.

At the end of the day it sounds like you have ended up with a lovely, educated horse, who will be in a loving home. So enjoy your riding, with or without noseband ETA - after re-reading your initial post I’m not even sure it was your horse, so hopefully whomever the horse is with, is enjoying and taking good care of them.

 

[tristar]

Lot of defensiveness isn't there? Is it because you feel that there is a lot to defend?

yes

 

[shortstuff99]

In defence there has been a lot of use of serrata nosebands which leave some horrendous scars, but that is generally an Iberian use and is (thankfully) falling out of favour now. However, I'm going to say most top dressage riders don't use them and the scars are quite distinctive.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Went to Bolesworth and saw well known show jumper up end his stick, lean over and give his horse a massive blow on the ribs with it

Did you report the rider to the stewards?

 

[The Jokers Girl]

Unfortunately the practices of modern dressage encourage this practice.There has long been concerns about nosebands, among many things, at dressage competitions. I watched an interview at a top dressage competition and one of their top competitors was being interviewed by a mainstream interviewer. On camera the steward came to do "The nose band check".This consisted of lightly running his fingers over the top of the nose band.
I have to say that stewards have a tough job.Some of these people are very wealthy and intitled and their attitude to anyone who frustrates them in anyway could be summed up as "Do you know who I am you silly little man/woman?"Do you know how easily I could ruin your career? Sadly,this attitude is seen lower down the levels as well.

And some of the gadgets used to get a horse to jump clear are horrific. You have spiked boots, glass put in to dig into the horses legs, electrified spurs. The list goes on. Dressage is not the only sport that has cruel owners and handlers using equipment incorrectly or gadgets that should be banned; so to spit venom at one discipline, as you saw a dip in a horses nose, that you really have no idea how it got, is a little unfair.

 

[Sprat]

No of course tack issues are not solely related to dressage but I think there is more abuse there than anywhere.

I think that is a sweeping statement there OP. Do you have any factual evidence to back it up? I would be more inclined to look to the likes of endurance if we are talking wide scale abuse of the horse...

 

[Cortez]

I think that is a sweeping statement there OP. Do you have any factual evidence to back it up? I would be more inclined to look to the likes of endurance if we are talking wide scale abuse of the horse...

Indeed, if you'd like to get properly enraged why don't you include practises that REALLY need some help? Like endurance, TWH, or a sizeable proportion of leisure riders?

I am absolutely no fan of modern dressage and left the sport years ago because of abuses far, far worse than tight nosebands, but you do seem to be getting your underwear in a ruck over something that isn't entirely either proveable or significant.

 

[Leandy]

Really a fishing expedition no?

 

[stormox]

Unfortunately the practices of modern dressage encourage this practice.There has long been concerns about nosebands, among many things, at dressage competitions. I watched an interview at a top dressage competition and one of their top competitors was being interviewed by a mainstream interviewer. On camera the steward came to do "The nose band check".This consisted of lightly running his fingers over the top of the nose band.
I have to say that stewards have a tough job.Some of these people are very wealthy and intitled and their attitude to anyone who frustrates them in anyway could be summed up as "Do you know who I am you silly little man/woman?"Do you know how easily I could ruin your career? Sadly,this attitude is seen lower down the levels as well.

Well I am not a dressage fan but I do not think dressage encourages tight nosebands. There are stringent checks in place and a dressage horse is meant to have a soft responsive mouth which would not happen if the noseband was too tight. I have stewarded many times in dressage and have never come across the attitude that 'stewards are silly little people'

 

[Littlebear]

I meant crank sorry.The horse was bred at the yard she returned to.Was not born with this dip.Yes I know that dressage is not the only horse sport where abuse occurs but IMHO there is more there than in others.

More there that in others?
I used to be stabled fronting on to the lorry park of a huge competition centre I saw plenty of abuse going on there and it certainly wasn’t on dressage days. Not saying there is no abuse in dressage, of course there is, but spend every day for many years on a show ground that covers all disciplines and see what you think after that.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I have stewarded many times in dressage and have never come across the attitude that 'stewards are silly little people

Me too.

Wouldn’t matter who they were either, if anyone had tried to patronise me - they wouldn’t have tried it for long .

ETA Fully agree with others, there’s a lot that’s worse in the horse world than modern dressage.

 

[shortstuff99]

Me too.

Wouldn’t matter who they were either, if anyone had tried to patronise me - they wouldn’t have tried it for long .

I did once have someone call me a little jobsworth when I told them their daughter's spurs were illegal. I told her she either changed them, didn't wear them or was eliminated.

 

[WelshD]

I see more badly fitted, poorly adjusted, inappropriate and poor fitting tack on an average evening cruising through the horsey groups on Facebook than I have ever seen at a competition - dressage or otherwise

 

[Roxylola]

I think I might have found my role in life as a dressage steward, I'm dreadfully face blind - I dont spot myself in photos so I couldn't be intimidated by anyone because I literally wouldnt know who they were ?

 

[blitznbobs]

The most abuse happens where horses are never seen by the public ... in the ‘kindness’ of keeping horses alive too long , in poorly fitting tack and mainly in ignorance.... in organised sports checks can at least be made , in peoples back gardens and some yards it’s normal ...