Monty Roberts yesterday - thoughts?

[Rowreach]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_N18QWfJxWw&feature=youtu.be

 

[Red-1]

I went to see Monty Roberts once live, and I did see some wonderful timing and progress BUT I also thought that although the man had "it" he did not share enough with the audience to allow them to get similar results. In this way it was a great piece of entertainment, and eye opening as regards what is possible, and it did make me look wider for my experience.

However, even though he has been local to me since I have not been back. I felt uncomfortable at the way the horses are progressed as quickly as possible in such a highly distracting environment. It felt like it was not 100% to the horses' interests. Not that I thought it was 'cruel' or anything, just that I would not personally put my horse through this experience, but having see what he did, I had the impetus to study further.

Some other people I have enjoyed either watching or having lessons with very much. Mark Rashid (been to America to ride with him several times), Richard Maxwell (watched several demos), Andrew and Manu McLean (had private lessons with my horse) and several more were great and expanded my thinking greatly. I have also found some, who I won't name, where I sadly took my horse and found that they were all about the video, and in real life it was not a great experience.

With this video I was sad for the horse, the owner and the rider too. In my eyes the horse never lost the snatchy way of moving that would have signalled readiness to progress. The body language was all wrong to think she was comfortable to do more.

The rider was a great jockey, only came off when the saddle slipped (twice). I think she was incredibly lucky to be able to dis-tangle herself from the stirrup or rein, whatever she was tangled in. But, the attendants did not panic and rush up and panic the horse, so that was due to their experience.

For the saddle to slip twice I think they could do with a better saddle and/or tighter girth! But most of all to give the horse more time.

Would I go view another Monty Roberts performance? No.
Would I give a horse for him to demo on? No.
Am I angry for the horse? No, not really, I bet a whole lot more horses have a lot worse treatment than that.

I am grateful that watching his demo years ago gave me the kick to go look at other stuff.

I do feel for the horse's owner. I hope Monty did a bit more work in private with the horse as I would not fancy taking her home and starting again, or indeed trying to persuade someone else to pick it up from there.

 

[tristar]

no way was that horse ready to be backed or got on, learn a big lesson from watching that horses body language and never forget that a horse will tell when it is ready to be mounted.

anyone with experience of backing horses would have seen it like a red flag, don`t give horses bad experiences.

i have never trusted monty roberts methods, a case of people thicker than him following, that horse meant to get that rider off, he has taught that horse the worst thing, that it can dump the rider.

and as for not helping the rider when tangled just shows a lack of instinctive response to a bad situation, with horses i think sometimes you need to act instantly.

i can see clearly that the horse is tense in the back, that transfers to stiff movements of its legs, it is a timebomb ready to explode.

thanks for putting that up, reminds me to next time when backing or mounting to listen and take notice.

 

[Red-1]

I just read the bottom of the Youtube write up for the video...

"Kerri-Anne fitzpatrick
Published on 24 Mar 2018
The first of the Equine Welfare Network charity horses to be chosen to take part in the Monty Roberts 2018 Tour at Cavan Equestrian Center was Freisian X EWN Miss Mia Wallace. We asked could Monty and his team tame her feisty nature? Mia has a “sharp temperament and if fresh is not easy to handle. She looks pretty but her attitude is not pink! Monty and (amazing to say the least ) Jo Lowes are going to continue with Mia on day 2 tomorrow a small number of tickets are still available."

 

[Cortez]

I might pop over today, but having seen Monty a couple of times it's not really something I feel the need to watch over and over. He's a great showman and communicator, but this is really just a "show"; neither the audience nor the horses are going to take anything lasting away from it. He doesn't do anything "wrong" per se, interesting yes, but I'm not sure that is wildly useful for the average viewer

 

[DabDab]

Red's analysis is pretty spot on doe me.

TBH, I'm surprised that hasn't happened before at one of his demos. Most horses aren't too reactive and they can cope with the speed of learning, but this horse was reactive and was just pushed along too quick for its temperament so it was hitting the panic button.

 

[junglefairy]

Why do horsey audiences never have the common sense to keep calm and quiet?

I’ve seen Monty Roberts live and was impressed. However, for these types of demos I think you need horses with a less sharp/sensitive temperament than the mare in the video. He misjudged it and I expect that, as a consequence, the mare will need more work than she may otherwise.

As with most things, I take the bits of Monty’s methods that I like and leave the rest.

 

[Fellewell]

Well there's one for the craic.

What's that famous quote from 'Lethal Weapon' ;-)

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Red's analysis is pretty spot on doe me.

TBH, I'm surprised that hasn't happened before at one of his demos. Most horses aren't too reactive and they can cope with the speed of learning, but this horse was reactive and was just pushed along too quick for its temperament so it was hitting the panic button.

it has. and I know how long it took to get that horse back on track.

 

[holeymoley]

3 minutes in and you can see that horse isn't ready for anyone on its back. I've seen him live twice- he's alright I don't 'do' the sob stories. I feel the types he works with on the night are usually good tempered and biddable to work with so with a bit of time the result is usually positive. The atmosphere itself is a big ask of horses that aren't 100%.

 

[Rowreach]

I was uncomfortable when I heard that the charity was taking four horses to be used at the demo. I have no idea whether this is normal? It seems to me that putting rescued horses and ponies through travel, staying in a strange place, being handled by strangers in a stressful atmosphere in front of hundreds of reactive people might not be the best thing for any of them?

When I saw the video I was speechless.

 

[HashRouge]

I actually didn't see anything much to dislike in the video. The horse was fine initially with the rider on her back, but I think scared herself slightly in the trot. Had she just walked, I suspect she would have been fine. The rider then got back on, no problem. I think Monty has a really nice way with horses - they obviously react well to him. The big issue of course is that he generally does not work with them long term - the work will have to be carried on by someone else afterwards, and not every rider/ handler is capable, especially with a sharper horse.

 

[Rowreach]

I actually didn't see anything much to dislike in the video. The horse was fine initially with the rider on her back, but I think scared herself slightly in the trot. Had she just walked, I suspect she would have been fine. The rider then got back on, no problem. I think Monty has a really nice way with horses - they obviously react well to him. The big issue of course is that he generally does not work with them long term - the work will have to be carried on by someone else afterwards, and not every rider/ handler is capable, especially with a sharper horse.

The rider came off twice ...

 

[HashRouge]

The rider came off twice ...

Oops, I skipped through a bit so must have missed the second fall!

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I think it's unforgivable that the saddle slipped and that the rider became tangled. She could have easily been seriously injured or even killed. A reactive horse with a person falling off and 'trapped' by their feet can go nuclear. **** can and does happen with horses but what happened here was absolutely preventable.

 

[ester]

I wonder why they are using a LW saddle and a polypad which of all set ups seems fairly likely to roll sideways fairly quick and not give them a good experience if it goes wrong.

I didn't like the 'she learned all this before' without seemingly any evidnce for that, it seemed like passing the buck.

 

[JillA]

I felt he was being unnecessarily rough on leading the mare around - she was stressed and afraid to really express that it all worried her, until it had to erupt. A bit more time leading her in a relaxed manner (and I have seen Mark Rashid do that in less than 5 minutes) would have been a better investment - but isn't so showy
I also think he should stress so much more that he can do it because this is many many years in the making, so the "local experts" don't all go out and try backing their young horses without the preparation we all know is essential

 

[Orangehorse]

That horse was on high alert, wasn't it? In his book he wrote that he did a demo in Ireland once, supposingly starting an unbroken horse that went to attack him - obviously someone had tried previously to break it and failed, so he is up against things like that.

I helped at a Demo once and Monty Roberts was a real gent, he spent quite a long time speaking to us helpers. The demo horses do get extra help and follow up if it needed, and they are all examined for soundness before being used for the demos.

 

[milliepops]

I wonder why they are using a LW saddle and a polypad which of all set ups seems fairly likely to roll sideways fairly quick and not give them a good experience if it goes wrong.

I didn't like the 'she learned all this before' without seemingly any evidnce for that, it seemed like passing the buck.

Yup, and what's more, they've added to anything she already knew - as mentioned by another poster above this horse now knows what to do to remove its rider. Good reminder to all of us with green horses to progress absolutely at their pace and make every experience a good one (as much as possible! ) Set them up to succeed.

 

[TheMule]

What a shame for the horse, just what you really dont need to happen in those precious first few moments on its back. Unfortunately they've now created a problem thats very hard to un-do.
Personally I don't really like the pressurised time frame and the stressful environment for starting a young horse and wouldn't choose it myself

 

[Goldenstar]

Horse not ready and was saying it was not ready .
In a non entertainment suitation you might have leant across the horse then put away for the next session .
So they then rushed the rider on board who then promptly sat up and down on the horses back and surprise surprise the horse bucked the rider off and of course because they are compressing what most of us do over a period of weeks into minutesand they have no voice training in place when it goes wrong there’s nothing you can do to save the situation.
The rider was lucky not to hurt .
Backing as entertainment is something that makes me very very cross it betrays the horse .

 

[be positive]

Yup, and what's more, they've added to anything she already knew - as mentioned by another poster above this horse now knows what to do to remove its rider. Good reminder to all of us with green horses to progress absolutely at their pace and make every experience a good one (as much as possible! )


Set them up to succeed.

This mare was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but MR should be more than aware of body language it is supposed to be what he is all about, he did not read her at all, continued without doing anything to help, the second explosion was obviously going to happen and then finished without at least getting her settled without a rider, I wonder what happened later after everyone went home as it is extremely unlikely he will bring her in today without trying to work her out of sight.

None of it sits well with me, I have never felt backing young horses is a spectator sport, sorting loading issues and some other problems maybe but not something that should be done quietly without fuss, at the right time for the individual, set them up to succeed and set them up for life.

 

[Cortez]

It is entirely likely that the horse was a failed breaker in the first place. Having broken horses for a living I have experience - it is a very Irish thing to do; bring along a supposedly "unbroken" animal and then let you find out the hard way it is a problem horse that someone else has tried and failed to train. That session will have firmly cemented in her mind that getting people off is the way to go, so next time it will be even more difficult to get her on-side. Sad for the horse, dangerous for the rider. Maybe Monty is losing his touch.

 

[DabDab]

This mare was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but MR should be more than aware of body language it is supposed to be what he is all about, he did not read her at all, continued without doing anything to help, the second explosion was obviously going to happen and then finished without at least getting her settled without a rider, I wonder what happened later after everyone went home as it is extremely unlikely he will bring her in today without trying to work her out of sight.

None of it sits well with me, I have never felt backing young horses is a spectator sport, sorting loading issues and some other problems maybe but not something that should be done quietly without fuss, at the right time for the individual, set them up to succeed and set them up for life.

The first time the horse trotted I thought it must've been by accident, then I realised they were trying to trot and chasing her on and my heart just jumped into my mouth. The whole situation, while not ideal, was save able up to that point. If they had just done a couple of circuits in walk and called it a day, but he pretty much chased her into that second broncing fit

It certainly seems like it was a case of the show must go on over and above a proper assessment of the horse's needs.

I would've been mortified if the horse was mine

 

[ester]

I don't understand why they trotted, he specifically said for most they would just walk but because she had had the incident if she wanted to trot they would let her, I'm not sure how much she wanted that 'trot'.

All the horses are usually worked and assess prior to the show so enough time to know she might be a bit hot about it.

I guess it does also show that the Ardall is not a total substitute for a real person. Would be interesting to see her reaction to that previously.

 

[Turitea]

Not the best of MR's displays but I still think he actually knows what he does. Still not a fan of all this "horse whispery" stuff but there are certain elements in his work that strike a chord with me.

 

[Apercrumbie]

That horse has a hell of a buck and has unfortunately just learned twice in quick succession the worst lesson for a baby to learn - how to get a human off its back. I was unfortunately once caught unawares by a youngster and it took a long, long time to get rid of the rodeo pony reaction once the damage was done. You need a gutsy rider with a very, very sticky bum so they eventually learn that it doesn't work. I think MR misread the horse here - she wasn't calm enough before the rider got on and was never comfortable with the situation.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Maybe Monty is losing his touch.

You could well be right. The Monty I saw when H&H first brough him over to Stoneleigh in 1989 would not have proceeded as he did in the video. There was a 'remedial' 3yo there for backing and Monty scaled right back on his 'get them ridden away in 30 mins' pitch, he told the owner that it would not be appropriate at all for their horse. Instead, he worked on the horse behind the scenes for the three days of the demo.

My own late chesnut git (sec DxTB) was there as a genuinely unbacked 3yo. I volunteered him for the demo because he was brash and opinionated, and he caved in to the Monty magic in an embarrasingly easy fashion. However, he remained brash and opinionated for the rest of his 25 years.

 

[daffy44]

I dont think backing should be entertainment.

That was a very brave rider, and that first fall was potentially lethal. They proceeded way too fast for that particular horse, and all it has learnt is that it can get rid of its rider when it wants. I struggle to see that that particular horse came away with anything positive from that session, and I certainly wouldnt call it backed.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Blimey, the cob spoke and no one listened to her. She reminded me of Ted, very similar reactive and panicky behaviour.

It was days before Ted's breaker sat up and weeks before trotting started. These types simply cannot be rushed.