most shock absorbing half pads - gel, memory foam, wool , other ?

AlexHyde said:
MP the VIP sounds intriguing, how thick is it? I will admit I'd dismissed it to the 'new fad' category but maybe I've been hasty as I've not seen one in the flesh yet.
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no thicker than a standard acavallo, I have the thin one with sheepskin round the edge
Feels very different though, when you pinch it together between your fingers you can feel the gel move but you can't really pinch all the way through if you know what I mean? It's quite weird stuff, I don't know the physics but it was not the same! and not at all sticky so if you use gel to keep things in place it won't work. It sat nicely under the saddle for Salty, I might have to think again for Kira if she drops off at all over winter as the saddle will be a touch wide then and they don't recommend combining it with anything, though tbh if she needs a shim at the front then so be it.
 
milliepops said:
Really interesting discussion. I can't imagine we'll get to a position where all the various products are independently tested in a variety of ways though, it sounds like the cost would be sky high and when all is said and done, consumers will still probably pick based on the best marketing or best price, or something.

GS's post is a good one, horses pick unexpected things sometimes! I am pleased with my YHL splurge so far, 2 rides on 2 horses at opposite ends of the training spectrum, both feel softer in their backs. One previously wore either a prolite type or acavallo depending on the numnah thickness, the other wore nothing before... I would love to see the science but for now I will have to settle for my own anecdotes!
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Completely agree. I think often the most effective products, while they do have a scientific basis as a starting point, they're often designed with a large dose of just general good intuition.

And likewise, when we're buying and using them a lot of it is down to our intuition. We can get a pretty good idea of how a material will respond to a horse's back by touching/leaning on/squishing it ourselves, because our biological makeup is similar enough to a horse's to give us a good idea.
 
milliepops said:
no thicker than a standard acavallo, I have the thin one with sheepskin round the edge
Feels very different though, when you pinch it together between your fingers you can feel the gel move but you can't really pinch all the way through if you know what I mean? It's quite weird stuff, I don't know the physics but it was not the same! and not at all sticky so if you use gel to keep things in place it won't work. It sat nicely under the saddle for Salty, I might have to think again for Kira if she drops off at all over winter as the saddle will be a touch wide then and they don't recommend combining it with anything, though tbh if she needs a shim at the front then so be it.
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Hmm might have to try and see one in the flesh, only the best from the little carriage pests ;).
 
I'm curious about the VIP too, I use a prolite and a sheepskin half pad atm (one on each saddle). I did find the cheaper version of the VIP and emailed to see if they would ship to the UK but they haven't replied as yet, also found them ebay for a little bit more
 
DabDab said:
Sorry might be me being dense, but which manufacturer are you talking about? There have been quite a few mentioned on this thread.
What's the rider safety angle? Reducing impact up spine?
...
If used well this has the potential to be a seriously clever use of materials and piece of design. But not many of the advantages given by this design can be captured by a bowling ball drop test. And I'm just wary of corner cutting competitors who will cotton on that this is the only test that consumers look at, and therefore they just have to make something that does really well in that test (without any of the other big benefits).

Hope that's not too rambley and makes enough sense :cool:
Click to expand...

No, a great post. I am talking about XRD and D30 manufacturers specifically if you mean the products that really work. Rider safety you need to watch the vidoes, Jen Hegeman knows way more about it than I do, she has worked in this industry as a specialist for many years. I have commented a little more to Alex below.

And agreed, the bowling ball test cannot replace proper product development and testing, but at least it's a fraction more scientific than just BS marketing and rider sponsorship. Which is what most people base their buying decisions on.

Goldenstar said:
Sheepskin does not suit some horses I own one who lies down if you try to mount him when he’s got one on ,we call it the dead sheep effect.
Some horses also scald when they get hot in sheepskin you this a lot in hunters whose numahs get very hot and wet on a long day .
Horses vary enormously and it’s important you listern to the horse as some will react violently to pads they don’t like .
Of the shock absorbing type materials prolite came out as the best when some pressure testing was done .
Personally I don’t get on well with prolite pads I find unmalleable to work on with and I wish the thickness of the standard padding in the pad before you add the shims was thinner .Having said all that Mr I hate dead sheep wears one.
The best result I ever experianced from chafing a pad was from a memory foam pad that you will find on the Paul Fielder web site .
We put the pad between the saddle cloth and the saddle and the horse raised his back and trotted away transformed that horse taught me a lot .
All the sticky type pads need treating with care as many horse don’t like them and they can cause fascia damage if you put them directly on the horse .

For OP I would recommend the nu med Griffin numah with memory foam . They are thin don’t interfere with the saddle fit you can get them with sheepskin if you want to and you can add shims if you ever need them .
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Sheepskin - I do know some horses that do not get on with it, but I would suspect that the "scalding" is potentially rubs from dirt in the pad, they actually cool the back as they draw sweat away. Endurance horses have their pads changed as often as possible and are not going through the hot-cold cycles that hunt horses can, so I would not like to pin the issues down to heat. Heat readings can be sky high under the old tombstone gel pads, horrific things.

Prolite - I would like to know what the pressure testing was, what it was tested against. and how long ago it was tested. Even Prolite admits it only takes out 25% shock, the pads demonstrably absorb WAY more than that, 90%+ in most cases (Thinline, Poron XRD and D30). The thing I like the least is the shims, they leave a distinct edge under the middle of the saddle, especially when you choose the thicker shims. I use only felt and trim each shim to make a set into a wedge. 5mm edge which compresses to less than that. Foam shims that don't leave edges tend to be too soft to do a lot. Now SOME of that is personal style and fitting, just as saddle fitters fit saddles in different ways, but I don't like the set up. Nor the Le Mieux shims which I suspect are good old fashioned low performance EVA foam.

You can't get a NuuMed sheepskin pad. And I loathed the Paul Fielder pad I saw. The base pad, to take shims, was so hard you could literally knock it and make a noise. Sorry, not something I would ever recommend.

I do agree that you must listen to the horse, I have said that all the way along, I'm trying to avoid people wasting money on a product that doesn't really do what it implies it does, because of marketing.

AlexHyde said:
I agree a very interesting discussion!

I'm a little confused as to the rider safety aspect, as rotational falls were mentioned, if your horse is going to fall then surely 1. the pad you use is really of a very small consequence to what is about to happen and 2. you actually want to be pinged out and away from the saddle (being squished under the horse is ill advised). Sorry talking as someone who was very lucky to walk away from one.

Which materials used for pads are the non-newtonian fluids ones? It's a really interesting thought, as I use the acavallo gel pads currently as deadsheep was too thick under my saddle, but maybe I should be looking to have them fitted with deadsheep?

MP the VIP sounds intriguing, how thick is it? I will admit I'd dismissed it to the 'new fad' category but maybe I've been hasty as I've not seen one in the flesh yet.
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Rotational falls shouldn't have been mentioned, my mistake, but any time a rider is potentially going to have a fall (and we all know this is a DANGEROUS sport) you do not want your tack contributing to it. Please see the Truth Tack Review videos, some panel materials (French close contact brands especially, high end stuff) actually bounce, they actually add to the risk, not detract from it. So this is about reducing the odds, using high tech materials, as other sports do. We lag a long way behind.

I don't think Thinline is a non-Newtonian fluid, but Poron XRD and D30 both are, and it is these I allude to performing at the highest levels.

If the Acavallo works for you great, but there are much better options with better science behind them. Acavallo plus sheepskin will affect the fit of your saddle.
 
VIP is made from Akton, here is the shock absorption, from 2201lb to 941lb, a reduction of around 60%.

http://www.akton.com/files/physical-testing.pdf

For the scientists here are the datasheets for XRD and D30:

http://algeos.us/pdfs/PORONXRDDataSheet.pdf
https://www.d3o.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/set-foams.pdf (XT, second down on the table)

There is perhaps only one product mentioned so far that I would say is a bad product, but my experience of it seems to indicate there were perhaps different forms of it (the Paul Fielder pad), the rest are all okay products, but some are great products that the experts in the field are starting to embrace.
 
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The Paul Fielder pad I had was very soft memory foam no shims a very simple pad .
I should have said wool lined for the nu med numah with memory foam .
 
Totally different to the one I saw, it really was like cardboard. I always try and stress sheepskin versus wool as they are quite different products with different performance.

Memory foam is an interesting one. If thick enough it can pass a bowling ball test pretty well, but by definition it is usually slow recovery (think about how slowly your mattress "bounces back" as you move) so to me is contraindicated for a saddle pad that needs to react quickly. Again, if your horse likes it, no problem.

The only definition of a memory foam that I can find of is that it is a visco-elastic foam that becomes more pliable once warm. There is huge variation within the category, rate of recovery, open cell, closed cell, heat absorption...we think of Tempur and think it must always be a good product, but is it designed for the use you have in mind? I think lots of products can feel lovely to us, but not be any good to put on a saddle. XRD feels pretty firm, not that lovely feel you get from memory foam, yet it really is one of the best things you can put under your saddle.
 
Ah, great, thanks for links - 'tis interesting.

Akton is quite an old and well known product now. Just a standard visco elastic polymer (so turns most absorbed force into heat), but it is a high performing one that has been used successfully in lots of applications. Depending on how thick it is I possibly wouldn't want to use it for racing or xc, but can imagine it would be good on a dressage/hacking/etc horse. Really tempted to get one for my big pssm horse actually - I should think it would suit him.

XRD looks interesting....I assume they are soaking the foam in the non-newtonian fluid, much like they're starting to do with Kevlar for body armour applications. I'd be interested to see it if there is a stand at any shows. Which products have it in?
 
The thing that will most help your horses back is a well balanced saddle that’s the apporiate length no amount of clever pads will make that any less important.
But I am all for people thinking about and trying new things.
I have had great service out of the numed thin memory foam numahs with our hunters and hunting is in my experiance one of hardest tests of all kit getting a jumping saddle comfy for a twenty minute use for xc is one thing getting it comfy over a six hour days hunting where the horse will change shape through the day is quite another .
 
Goldenstar said:
The thing that will most help your horses back is a well balanced saddle that’s the apporiate length no amount of clever pads will make that any less important.
But I am all for people thinking about and trying new things.
I have had great service out of the numed thin memory foam numahs with our hunters and hunting is in my experiance one of hardest tests of all kit getting a jumping saddle comfy for a twenty minute use for xc is one thing getting it comfy over a six hour days hunting where the horse will change shape through the day is quite another .
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I agree with this ^, sheepskin would alter the fit of my saddles so I sought out an alternative that was thinner, as obviously the fit of the saddle is the most important.

For dressage and a bit a jumping, I'm not sure we 'really' need anything more high tech to be honest, and I'm still a little puzzled at a pad keeping you in the saddle when other forces must be stronger, but I'm enjoying the discussion :).

Off to nosy at the materials mentioned up-thread :).
 
There’s no doubt that that final three percent of performance can be affected by the prices of kit that come under the extras umbrella .
I dislike riding a horse with a lot between the saddle and the horse and I think I know which types of pads I am happiest with on each horse .
I have said on an earlier post I prefer the numed thin numahs with a thin layer of memory form .
I just feel my saddles sit well using these and the horses are happy one horse uses a prolite with a rear raiser I prefer the look of the fit without the rear raised but the horse has been adamant this what he likes .
 
wow - as OP want to thank you all for your contribution -

do we want to add the winderen pad into the mix?

seems the most expensive of them all but are made up of 4 different materials.

they have an impressive graph - but not being scientific or technical don't know what the key 'ms' or 'j' relate to
 
I must admit all this talk of pads etc mais me wonder if I’m missing out on anything! I usually ride with only a standard saddle cloth underneath them (with a nid d’abeille underside for preference). Blitz has a dead sheep (Mattes) half pad to use when he drops off at the autumn field change, but as soon as he picks up again I take it off.

I’ve ridden horses with assorted gel pads etc under them and I always feel too far from the horse and a bit unstable with then (though granted it could be a placebo effect!)
 
Casey76 said:
I must admit all this talk of pads etc mais me wonder if I’m missing out on anything! I usually ride with only a standard saddle cloth underneath them (with a nid d’abeille underside for preference). Blitz has a dead sheep (Mattes) half pad to use when he drops off at the autumn field change, but as soon as he picks up again I take it off.

I’ve ridden horses with assorted gel pads etc under them and I always feel too far from the horse and a bit unstable with then (though granted it could be a placebo effect!)
Click to expand...

Personally, I use a pad in the first instance to improve saddle fit. And then given that I need to have something, it might as well be the best thing I can choose for that horse.
At the moment, Kira and Salty are almost the same shaped back, K could probably do with a little shim in the front if we stick with the VIP and I will need to look at this as we go into winter (though if they have to be stabled as much as last year it may not be an issue, they eat hay ALL day!)
my dressage saddle has foam panels and is not adjustable, I know this is anathema to some but it works for my horses, physio always gives a clean bill of health and they are happy in their work so ultimately they are the best feedback to me.

I think the feel is a very personal thing, I really like my close contact saddle but also like the way the horses go under flair, others couldn't stand either :)
 
I was great fan of flair and had five flair dressage saddles in various sizes .
I quickly went off flair for jumping I found it ok for small jumps but over bigger things I think the air moves away from the points on landing causing a nip on senestive horses .
But for flat work I used these saddles for years they where ideal Jessica’s then as I had fewer horses and less turnover I went for customs flocked saddles I have now have fairfaxes which suit me so well and one Albion but there’s the odd time I regret not keeping one medium wide Jessica with flair .
 
DabDab said:
XRD looks interesting....I assume they are soaking the foam in the non-newtonian fluid, much like they're starting to do with Kevlar for body armour applications. I'd be interested to see it if there is a stand at any shows. Which products have it in?
Click to expand...

Hah the joys of a semi tecchie, me, talking to a full on tecchie, no the foams "behave as non-Newtonian fluids".

You have the links for the pads I think, Woofwear uses XRD in their top of the range overreach boots, otherwise you'd have to Google. They are expensive products and seem to be little used in equine products. Jen Hegeman calls them molecular foams, they do not fall into the regular categories.

Akton - I would be further slightly concerned by breathability.

Goldenstar said:
The thing that will most help your horses back is a well balanced saddle that’s the apporiate length no amount of clever pads will make that any less important.
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That is the most important thing. However I see what difference more shock absorption makes to many horses, panel materials are generally not great shock absorbers and that includes flocking. They do so much but a good pad can do much more.

minimex2 said:
wow - as OP want to thank you all for your contribution -

do we want to add the winderen pad into the mix?

seems the most expensive of them all but are made up of 4 different materials.

they have an impressive graph - but not being scientific or technical don't know what the key 'ms' or 'j' relate to
Click to expand...

The yellow I am sure is XRD, further to that I do not know.

Casey76 said:
I’ve ridden horses with assorted gel pads etc under them and I always feel too far from the horse and a bit unstable with then (though granted it could be a placebo effect!)
Click to expand...

I fit only wide horses, stability is my thing, and with the right saddle, fitted to accommodate it, you shouldn't feel like this, and most don't. Will depend on the pad though, as you are seeing there are good and not so good.
 
A very interesting read. I ride with a sheepskin pad with the saddle fitter to accommodate this. I wondered whay peoples opinions are of the premier equine sheepskin pads, and their shockproof pads. Are they actually shock absorbing? I rode in one borrowed from a friend and horse seemed to like It, it certainly was well ventilated and kept everything cool and dry
 
Rosiejazzandpia said:
I wondered whay peoples opinions are of the premier equine sheepskin pads, and their shockproof pads. Are they actually shock absorbing? I rode in one borrowed from a friend and horse seemed to like It, it certainly was well ventilated and kept everything cool and dry
Click to expand...

I suppose the aim is to get people to be more questioning, which you are with your question here, but what is the material? Can you go to the source material to see what it was designed for, how it preforms? If they don't tell you what it is then it's probably just an EVA foam and has only very mediocre shock absorbancy.

PE have always been great at marketing, some great products, but some downsides. Merino wool will probably not be as shock absorbiing as British wool (to do with microns of the fibres) but if 30mm medical grade then it will be good. The foam...hmmm...lots of flummoxy wording - "Airtechnology"?! I'm sorry but I'd be buying from companies that don't baffle with BS, not PE in this case. The company is trying to A stop anyone else using the foam if it's any good by rebranding it as their own, and B stopping anyone finding out if it IS any good.
 
minimex2 said:
do we want to add the winderen pad into the mix?

seems the most expensive of them all but are made up of 4 different materials.

they have an impressive graph - but not being scientific or technical don't know what the key 'ms' or 'j' relate to
Click to expand...
I wish they'd name the materials rather than just say a force equalising non-newtonian material, it makes it hard to directly compare it to other pads. The Invictus isn't much cheaper but you can at least research the D30 XT they use, they might both be good pads or one might be better than the other but you have no easy way of finding out.
 
I did link to the data sheets on both, one's US imperial and one metric but my OH has a background in materials engineering so at some point he'll do me a spreadsheet. Might need to search further on Akton because it doesn't seem to have as much info on the sheet I found However comparing them in the real world means buying one of each and testing them...but equally trying to suss out how many horses prefer each one. A lot of work!
 
Casey76 said:
I must admit all this talk of pads etc mais me wonder if I’m missing out on anything! I usually ride with only a standard saddle cloth underneath them (with a nid d’abeille underside for preference). Blitz has a dead sheep (Mattes) half pad to use when he drops off at the autumn field change, but as soon as he picks up again I take it off.

I’ve ridden horses with assorted gel pads etc under them and I always feel too far from the horse and a bit unstable with then (though granted it could be a placebo effect!)
Click to expand...

This is me too.
I have been trying to follow the post but I think I am missing something basic here.
I always thought that the aim was to get a well fitting saddle and then keep the saddle clean by having a minimal saddle cloth between the horse and the saddle.
I ride a pony and if the saddle pad/cloth is too thick it is very easy to feel perched on top.
Are you all saying that having additional shock absorbing material is something we should have?
 
I think that for many horses it's a great idea, but you do have to be in a position to potentially have your saddle adjusted to take it. Occasionally a thick pad isn't possible with a particular saddle, ie it can't be adjusted appropriately and fit well, but usually it can.

Now in the real world I fit at least 50% of the saddles I fit with a thin cotton numnah, and I will not try and persuade anyone to buy a pad like this unless their horse is a remedial fit, either with a lack of topine, or with actual muscle loss, or if especially sensitive. And in many of those cases I'll work with what they have - a merino pad, a Prolite, or an Acavallo (probably the most common that people own, hence my frustration with the marketing).

Some horses, many horses, go noticeably better with at least a sheepskin underneath but I have customers who can feel the difference in their horse's way of going from just a low density thin XRD layer put into the pockets of their top notch Mattes sheepskin pad, some stuff I got as samples.

There is a move across the industry, with back people too, to use these wonderful materials under saddles, to give a compressible layer for them to expand their soft tissue into (medical grade sheepskin probably being the best) or for shock absorption, where often the pads are a little firm for it to provide expansion space but more than make up for it with the technology as discussed.

All horses are different :)
 
Tarragon said:
This is me too.
I have been trying to follow the post but I think I am missing something basic here.
I always thought that the aim was to get a well fitting saddle and then keep the saddle clean by having a minimal saddle cloth between the horse and the saddle.
I ride a pony and if the saddle pad/cloth is too thick it is very easy to feel perched on top.
Are you all saying that having additional shock absorbing material is something we should have?
Click to expand...

Answering as a horse owner and dressage rider, I have a saddle that fits both horses "reasonably" and I tweak it with shims or pads. At the moment it's slightly too wide for one, and fits the other well with just a normal saddle pad. I can't afford to buy 2 saddles, they're spectacularly expensive and I don't consider it necessary tbh when the arrangement I have is working well. I would prefer to buy on the marginally wide side and pad anyway, to allow for seasonal changes in condition. Not everyone would agree, but I'm happy with how my horses feel.

I have had various pads for the narrower horse, my interest in experimenting with them is to find the optimum comfort for this horse who is competing at small tour and training higher, at this point, every little really does help...
the younger horse might get some benefit at her much lower level of training, if I have the kit available to try then it does no harm.
 
sbloom said:
Hah the joys of a semi tecchie, me, talking to a full on tecchie, no the foams "behave as non-Newtonian fluids".

You have the links for the pads I think, Woofwear uses XRD in their top of the range overreach boots, otherwise you'd have to Google. They are expensive products and seem to be little used in equine products. Jen Hegeman calls them molecular foams, they do not fall into the regular categories.

Akton - I would be further slightly concerned by breathability.



That is the most important thing. However I see what difference more shock absorption makes to many horses, panel materials are generally not great shock absorbers and that includes flocking. They do so much but a good pad can do much more.



The yellow I am sure is XRD, further to that I do not know.



I fit only wide horses, stability is my thing, and with the right saddle, fitted to accommodate it, you shouldn't feel like this, and most don't. Will depend on the pad though, as you are seeing there are good and not so good.
Click to expand...

Ah gotcha, yeah that makes sense.

Well I have just bought a VIP pad, and have two very different horses to play with it on, so will report back if anyone's interested
 
Ok, so VIP received and tried on one horse.

So far I am really pleased with it. It is a bit long for my mare's 16.5" saddle, and because it's coloured it will be very noticeable if I want to compete with it, so would probably have to make a pocket in a white saddle cloth for the back of it to tuck out of site.

Arty is only fairly young and uneducated, and has a very powerful back end so naturally tends to over rely on that when moving, with a high head carriage and not much swing and movement in her back. So the aim of her training at the moment is getting her to soften over her top line and swing through her back more. And then I can start educating her about seat aids ;). At the start today it wasn't the best circumstances to test a new thing as some horses had moved into the field next to my school overnight, so everything was a bit tense for the first 10 minutes. But then she flicked a switch and settled and the following work was really really lovely. We had a good 20 mins of soft and swingy, even when I was asking some new questions of her (which is where she usually reverts to type and tightens up). Don't know how much of that I could reliably put down to the pad, but it certainly wasn't doing any harm, and I'm conservatively pleased with it so far. There was also no noticeable heat difference under where the pad was sitting, but then it was blummin freezing this morning and she's not doing anything near sweat inducing.

I haven't dropped anything on it yet ;)

Hope that's helpful
 
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