My teenager wants to offer horse care service - some questions for you all

Mari said:
I injured myself (not horse related) & haven’t been able to do the basic horse care but could be there & supervise. 3 retirees kept at home. I found a great girl to come 1-2 hours a day, on my insurance, to muck out, poo pick, do nets & keep everything tidy, just whatever needed doing. I paid £12 an hour. She was so good that I’m keeping her on for 2 hrs one day a week with a view to maybe getting away for a few days & her doing the “holiday” cover. I would suggest your daughter target the horses kept at home situations, it took me ages to find the girl I’ve got & she only agreed initially to help me while I was injured but has now agreed to keep me on as the set up is good & well organised. Good luck.
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A perfect example of the kind of scenario she envisages.
 
I have a youngster help me out for a few hours a week. She does poo-picking but also handles my ponies. She has her own pony and wants to eventually train to be a vet, but lacks experience. I am around to supervise 90% of the time. I am a teacher so I enjoy teaching her while she helps me out. Also, my ponies are mainly Shetlands (stud farm) so although they can be cheeky, the risks are much lower than someone dealing with huge horses!
 
bonnysmum said:
In particular I wonder if placing such emphasis (in England) on kids staying in education until they're at least 18 is altering societal perceptions. As someone mentioned above, by law 16 year olds can drive a tractor on the roads among many other things. They aren't babies and I'm not sure it does them any favours to treat them as such. (And in my experience teenagers who are daft at 16 are still equally daft at 18, probably because no one will let them grow up!)
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in our area there are no kids to work any longer. Either they don't want to work, are not capable or it is too scary to employ them. Our area is fairly remote and we have gone in the last 50 years from a surplus of farm kids on a lot of small farms to yuppie land with a lot less farms and a lot of people moving in with far too much money. The yuppy kids don't want to or expect to work so that rules them out. The reduced number of farm kids are working on their own farms and as for the rest then either they don't want to venture outside because the computer is indoors or alternatively they are not capable or it is too scary to employ them. I would happily in the past have paid teenagers to do stuff like help unload hay but it's just not safe to do so. When you paid farm kids they had learnt about machinery and animals from a very early age and were very safe with either. We unload hay with a tractor loader and it is simply too worrying to try and keep kids who have absolutely no idea safe. I always feel the parents and their solicitors will be just round the corner if anything goes wrong.

I remember someone employing a 16 yo to do odd jobs part time. If the lad didn't fancy the job he just downed tools and refused to do it. Very easy work but "whatever" not really interested, CBA.

So I suppose I am one of those at fault who won't let them grow up and work because of the risks even with insurance. I used to let kids sit on the horses, I used to let them stroke the horses but not any longer. Now unless they have their own horses I don't. Too much risk.

so different from the past sadly. I agree we aren't doing them any favours. When the leaving age was 16 and there wasn't this push for every kid to go to uni whether they were suitable or not then they left at 16 and went into a job/apprenticeship with adults who didn't take any nonsense, they were expected to do a days work, CBA didn't come into it and they grew up fast.
 
paddy555 said:
in our area there are no kids to work any longer. Either they don't want to work, are not capable or it is too scary to employ them. Our area is fairly remote and we have gone in the last 50 years from a surplus of farm kids on a lot of small farms to yuppie land with a lot less farms and a lot of people moving in with far too much money. The yuppy kids don't want to or expect to work so that rules them out. The reduced number of farm kids are working on their own farms and as for the rest then either they don't want to venture outside because the computer is indoors or alternatively they are not capable or it is too scary to employ them. I would happily in the past have paid teenagers to do stuff like help unload hay but it's just not safe to do so. When you paid farm kids they had learnt about machinery and animals from a very early age and were very safe with either. We unload hay with a tractor loader and it is simply too worrying to try and keep kids who have absolutely no idea safe. I always feel the parents and their solicitors will be just round the corner if anything goes wrong.

I remember someone employing a 16 yo to do odd jobs part time. If the lad didn't fancy the job he just downed tools and refused to do it. Very easy work but "whatever" not really interested, CBA.

So I suppose I am one of those at fault who won't let them grow up and work because of the risks even with insurance. I used to let kids sit on the horses, I used to let them stroke the horses but not any longer. Now unless they have their own horses I don't. Too much risk.

so different from the past sadly. I agree we aren't doing them any favours. When the leaving age was 16 and there wasn't this push for every kid to go to uni whether they were suitable or not then they left at 16 and went into a job/apprenticeship with adults who didn't take any nonsense, they were expected to do a days work, CBA didn't come into it and they grew up fast.
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Yup, it's actually very very sad, for them and the resilience of our future society. No one can blame individual adults for being cautious, as you say it's this prolonged mollycoddling preventing kids who just want to get on with their lives from doing so, and giving others an excuse to procrastinate forever.

My son sees this in his work too. He's not long 19 and was promoted to supervisor less than six months after starting the job, he really cares about his work and has a great work ethic but he seems to be in the minority. They're really struggling to employ new staff who are even vaguely competent or reliable.

But no, being able to (digitally) wave a bit of paper with some dubious national qualifications is far more important than letting youngsters flourish at what they are good at. Grrrr.
 
Now I have time, I thought I'd give you an idea of what I've seen with other people handling my horses, so you have an understanding of the responses there have been (and an idea of what she's potentially getting herself into!).

Under supervision with me on the yard, visible to my ponies - generally ok. That's ranging from my own children when they were aged 7/8 upwards, to teen sharers, novice parents of sharers etc. The ponies know I'm there and behave nicely. Anything that starts to go wrong, I see and step in. Poo picking, giving out hay and feeds, picking out hooves - all goes according to plan. This is the scenario you ideally need. Owner in the background doing their own thing, teen employee doing the chores they don't have time for (poo picking, mucking out, haynet making/hanging, water buckets and troughs, sweeping, weed removal in the summer). I did that kind of thing too as a teen, including two weeks of work experience with a friend aged 16 where we stayed onsite without parents and worked as unpaid yard help essentially for someone my friend's mother knew. It was great fun and we both learned loads - but hard work! We didn't handle any horses as they were fit competition horses so huge and spicy, but did do a ton of yard work.

When I'm not there, there are three categories:
1) My children - who handle and ride daily alongside me. Generally, the ponies behave so long as they're not asking too much of them. They can feed, hay and poo pick independently with me a few minutes down the road and easily available by phone. They can ride the easy ones and pick out feet, tack up etc as usual. I don’t let them handle or ride anything that isn’t sweet or small without me present though.

2) My husband (novice) who doesn't ride at the moment, or teen/younger adults. In general, they see behaviours that just do not happen with me there. That story up thread of the girl poo picking with a shetland and a retired pony and them going nuts resonates so much! One night my husband went to feed (in the days when he did ride) and he got knocked over (literally) as they all came charging towards him, through the electric fence and through him. I can literally stand in the middle of the field with the sea of them charging towards me and they part like the Red Sea in the bible story. I didn't believe him when he told me! They fight at feed time for him and he gets kicked or they get hurt (we feed in the field, have always done, when I'm there there are NO issues!). They fight over hay and frighten the person putting it out. The other day two of them decided to bolt their dinners and get choke. Someone forgets to fully shut the gate and they barge through, or they won't let the person in with the wheelbarrow or push past them and get out. They have a zoom moment and don't respect the person. Basically, on a bad day they decide to be little hooligans because 'mum' isn't there.

Those with more ‘interesting’ pasts have similar opinions of equine professionals. I now request an older, maternal woman vet because I can either do that and have a calm, easy experience or be chasing a pony round in the stable while we try to get anything done. The ponies learned to trust me - a mid 40s female with children. They transfer that trust to similar humans more easily. The stories my sharers used to tell me of what happened when I wasn’t there - and the stories my friend’s sharers tell her! I know those horses well and I’m like…really? He really did that? Can’t imagine it!

3) Older, confident adults. Someone tries it on, gets told off, they all go, 'Oh. Ok.' and service as normal resumes. My competent, confident friend can walk into the field and they all treat her as they do me - they are polite and respectful and let her do whatever she needs to without issue. The vets I prefer are the same. Pony goes to react, they give the ‘mum look’, pony relaxes and that’s that. Or the ‘dad look’ in the case of my equine dentist!

Then you have the injuries. Always at the wrong time! In my 20+ years with horses I have seen: lots of cuts ranging from tea tree and ignore to call the vet to properly panic; choke, colic, sycamore poisoning, squits from changes in grass, bits of thorn/burr stuck in eyelids, simple bashes on an eye, limping due to a myriad of causes (ranging from removing a stone to leaving out to stabling to vet emergency to call the vet the next day… or the farrier incl removal of a shoe hanging half off yourself because they cannot even really put the foot down it’s twisted that badly). Infections like viral conjunctivitis, strangles. Dental issues, sudden onset neurological issues, laminitis, EMS, simple thrush, canker, a mare dying because the foal died inside and she had septicaemia, unexpected foaling and on and on. Not all those were mine. That’s 20 years of my horses, other people’s on yards, friends’ horses.

I once, on a very memorable occasion, had a holiday booked and my TB decided a couple of days before to crack open her head (to the bone) a few days before, in double digit minus temperatures with snow on the ground. My very lovely freelancer got the short straw as I went away just as the horse was feeling better but was still meant to stay safely on box rest. She could go out for 10-20min twice a day. So she opened the door (thankfully straight onto the field) and my antsy TB charged past her - halt to gallop, and proceeded to career around like a loon for the whole time she mucked out and did her chores - then calmed down just about as it was time to go back in. Freelancer had attempted to catch and lead out on day 1 and given that up as dangerous to find the better option she used. Apparently mum was absent and so was the horse’s ability to have good manners and cope with life! I arrived home a week later to a goody two shoes mare who batted her eyelids and denied it all… 🙄 I will also never forget being a young child and seeing a mare with her lower leg swinging, snapped in half due to standing in a rabbit hole in her own field, foal at foot. It happened in a moment.
 
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bonnysmum said:
It's hard to imagine anyone who owns horses being cushioned from basic choices about life's necessities... Walking money pits so they are 😩
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I have a copy of Country Life, picked up by accident with a half page colour ad from when the estate was sold. Funny thing was although the beds were deep, you were encouraged to save on shavings, every time you passed a box it was picked out.
The music room in a friends house had a floor area bigger than the house I grew up in.
 
maya2008 said:
Now I have time, I thought I'd give you an idea of what I've seen with other people handling my horses, so you have an understanding of the responses there have been (and an idea of what she's potentially getting herself into!).

Under supervision with me on the yard, visible to my ponies - generally ok. That's ranging from my own children when they were aged 7/8 upwards, to teen sharers, novice parents of sharers etc. The ponies know I'm there and behave nicely. Anything that starts to go wrong, I see and step in. Poo picking, giving out hay and feeds, picking out hooves - all goes according to plan. This is the scenario you ideally need. Owner in the background doing their own thing, teen employee doing the chores they don't have time for (poo picking, mucking out, haynet making/hanging, water buckets and troughs, sweeping, weed removal in the summer). I did that kind of thing too as a teen, including two weeks of work experience with a friend aged 16 where we stayed onsite without parents and worked as unpaid yard help essentially for someone my friend's mother knew. It was great fun and we both learned loads - but hard work! We didn't handle any horses as they were fit competition horses so huge and spicy, but did do a ton of yard work.

When I'm not there, there are three categories:
1) My children - who handle and ride daily alongside me. Generally, the ponies behave so long as they're not asking too much of them. They can feed, hay and poo pick independently with me a few minutes down the road and easily available by phone. They can ride the easy ones and pick out feet, tack up etc as usual. I don’t let them handle or ride anything that isn’t sweet or small without me present though.

2) My husband (novice) who doesn't ride at the moment, or teen/younger adults. In general, they see behaviours that just do not happen with me there. That story up thread of the girl poo picking with a shetland and a retired pony and them going nuts resonates so much! One night my husband went to feed (in the days when he did ride) and he got knocked over (literally) as they all came charging towards him, through the electric fence and through him. I can literally stand in the middle of the field with the sea of them charging towards me and they part like the Red Sea in the bible story. I didn't believe him when he told me! They fight at feed time for him and he gets kicked or they get hurt (we feed in the field, have always done, when I'm there there are NO issues!). They fight over hay and frighten the person putting it out. The other day two of them decided to bolt their dinners and get choke. Someone forgets to fully shut the gate and they barge through, or they won't let the person in with the wheelbarrow or push past them and get out. They have a zoom moment and don't respect the person. Basically, on a bad day they decide to be little hooligans because 'mum' isn't there.

Those with more ‘interesting’ pasts have similar opinions of equine professionals. I now request an older, maternal woman vet because I can either do that and have a calm, easy experience or be chasing a pony round in the stable while we try to get anything done. The ponies learned to trust me - a mid 40s female with children. They transfer that trust to similar humans more easily. The stories my sharers used to tell me of what happened when I wasn’t there - and the stories my friend’s sharers tell her! I know those horses well and I’m like…really? He really did that? Can’t imagine it!

3) Older, confident adults. Someone tries it on, gets told off, they all go, 'Oh. Ok.' and service as normal resumes. My competent, confident friend can walk into the field and they all treat her as they do me - they are polite and respectful and let her do whatever she needs to without issue. The vets I prefer are the same. Pony goes to react, they give the ‘mum look’, pony relaxes and that’s that. Or the ‘dad look’ in the case of my equine dentist!

Then you have the injuries. Always at the wrong time! In my 20+ years with horses I have seen: lots of cuts ranging from tea tree and ignore to call the vet to properly panic; choke, colic, sycamore poisoning, squits from changes in grass, bits of thorn/burr stuck in eyelids, simple bashes on an eye, limping due to a myriad of causes (ranging from removing a stone to leaving out to stabling to vet emergency to call the vet the next day… or the farrier incl removal of a shoe hanging half off yourself because they cannot even really put the foot down it’s twisted that badly). Infections like viral conjunctivitis, strangles. Dental issues, sudden onset neurological issues, laminitis, EMS, simple thrush, canker, a mare dying because the foal died inside and she had septicaemia, unexpected foaling and on and on. Not all those were mine. That’s 20 years of my horses, other people’s on yards, friends’ horses.

I once, on a very memorable occasion, had a holiday booked and my TB decided a couple of days before to crack open her head (to the bone) a few days before, in double digit minus temperatures with snow on the ground. My very lovely freelancer got the short straw as I went away just as the horse was feeling better but was still meant to stay safely on box rest. She could go out for 10-20min twice a day. So she opened the door (thankfully straight onto the field) and my antsy TB charged past her - halt to gallop, and proceeded to career around like a loon for the whole time she mucked out and did her chores - then calmed down just about as it was time to go back in. Freelancer had attempted to catch and lead out on day 1 and given that up as dangerous to find the better option she used. Apparently mum was absent and so was the horse’s ability to have good manners and cope with life! I arrived home a week later to a goody two shoes mare who batted her eyelids and denied it all… 🙄 I will also never forget being a young child and seeing a mare with her lower leg swinging, snapped in half due to standing in a rabbit hole in her own field, foal at foot. It happened in a moment.
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Oh I get it honestly. I am in no
way saying that I would want, or think she is capable of dealing with such things on her own, but with reference to your list she does have direct experience of helping with or in some cases dealing with (in no particular order)

impaction colic
EMS/laminitis watch
mum getting badly kicked out in the middle of nowhere 🫣
pony getting stuck in a bog
acute equine asthma attacks
nasty hoof abscess (middle of winter, no shelter)
multiple bouts of lameness, some due to injury, some with extended diagnosis
rehabilitation from said lameness
stone bruise
18hh horse getting stuck in a gate

That's all I can think of right now. There are plenty more things (some really awful) that she has been aware of in respect of friends' horses. My point being that her horse experience has not consisted of pony club games, unicorns and glitter. Thankfully not all the same horse (well not quite, but there is a reason my insurance covers barely anything any more!). She's probably more aware than I am of what can happen (hence I was the one who broke ribs 🤣) and she is 100% more capable of calmly dealing with issues. Horses are far more likely to take the mickey with me than her!

All of which means NOT that she thinks or I think she can deal with any of these things by herself, but that she is 100% aware of what can happen, takes great care with everything she does, and knows her limitations. She has a knowledgeable and sensible head on her shoulders and will take great care not to be out of her depth.

Having said all that... this also depends on any potential customers being honest and fair about their expectations. For their horses' sake you would hope they would be, but it's an area of concern which is pushing me towards her only working when the owner is also present.
 
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bonnysmum said:
Having said all that... this also depends on any potential customers being honest and fair about their expectations. For their horses' sake you would hope they would be, but it's an area of concern which is pushing me towards her only working when the owner is also present.
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what Maya says in point 2 is very relevant. The horse/pony may be a totally respectful delight for it's owner but when "mum's" away that may not continue. My OH has been around horses most of his life, rides daily, can look after them all if needed but they mess him around more than they do me. They wouldn't dare run over me but they aren't so careful with him. So a customer may be honest and that is how her horse behaves with her but it may not be how it behaves with someone else. I've had for example horse vets come who haven't been able to handle my horses well and other horse vets who have been able to handle the same horse better than I can.

I'm sure your daughter may do better being around the horses when the owner is present. I appreciate she wants to work to earn money but there is also a lot of responsibility on the owner (if they are going to be present) both to continually safeguard her and also to teach her and to protect their own horses from any mistakes. I don't know what insurance the owner would need say your daughter got seriously kicked in the head, hospitalised for a long spell, had life changing injuries. Just a thought.
 
paddy555 said:
what Maya says in point 2 is very relevant. The horse/pony may be a totally respectful delight for it's owner but when "mum's" away that may not continue. My OH has been around horses most of his life, rides daily, can look after them all if needed but they mess him around more than they do me. They wouldn't dare run over me but they aren't so careful with him. So a customer may be honest and that is how her horse behaves with her but it may not be how it behaves with someone else. I've had for example horse vets come who haven't been able to handle my horses well and other horse vets who have been able to handle the same horse better than I can.

I'm sure your daughter may do better being around the horses when the owner is present. I appreciate she wants to work to earn money but there is also a lot of responsibility on the owner (if they are going to be present) both to continually safeguard her and also to teach her and to protect their own horses from any mistakes. I don't know what insurance the owner would need say your daughter got seriously kicked in the head, hospitalised for a long spell, had life changing injuries. Just a thought.
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I'm pretty sure that scenario is covered by her having personal accident insurance and the owner having public liability insurance, as you'd expect if they're using any freelancer. But anyhow, yes, all very true, although I don't think any of those points particularly change if she was a few years older. (I'm not sure why an owner should feel obliged to teach or continually safeguard someone who they're employing to help with menial jobs, but that's another story. She is not a novice.). What might change is her ability to assert herself if put under pressure to continue in what she considers to be a dangerous situation.

I'm thinking back to a few years ago. Keeping details scant for obvious reasons but she was helping out someone local - when she *was* a novice, and young - and for one reason or another she ended up having to feed and water three "not small" horses by herself. She felt uncomfortable and decided to withdraw from one of the stables rather than changing the water because the TB in question was being really fidgety and she was afraid she would be kicked Well the owner tore a strip off her for "panicking" and not pushing through the situation to do the job. I thought this was appalling and it was the beginning of the end of that arrangement. Personally I felt she should have been praised for reading the situation and keeping herself safe.

I realise this is coming at it from the opposite angle from most people here, who are understandably thinking about potential liabilities for the owners, but unfortunately my experience of the horse world is that there are a lot of cavalier attitudes like that. And the more this thread goes on the more I worry about the situations she could be put in through no fault of her own.

Now of course she would do her very best not to end up in this position, and obviously she has years more experience now, but now I've been reminded of that small incident and after the excellent points @maya2008 made, I do wonder. Perhaps I should be just as worried about her being exploited and put at risk as others are about their potential liabilities. Food for thought.
 
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bonnysmum said:
I don't dispute your logic at all, but having got some info I'm now interested in some of the general points raised in this thread.

In particular I wonder if placing such emphasis (in England) on kids staying in education until they're at least 18 is altering societal perceptions. As someone mentioned above, by law 16 year olds can drive a tractor on the roads among many other things. They aren't babies and I'm not sure it does them any favours to treat them as such. (And in my experience teenagers who are daft at 16 are still equally daft at 18, probably because no one will let them grow up!)
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Doubt it has done youngsters any favours in terms of taking responsibility, because socially they are no longer fully responsible: not held, judged nor expected to be. Back in 18thC, Defoe commented in all seriousness that every child over the age of six should be capable of earning his or her own bread. Infants went through a period of dependency, and by the time had gained control of their limbs, mastered language and social rudiments - were basically expected to contribute in an increasing way to their household. Times (and living standards) have certainly changed!
Historians view ‘childhood’ as more a social construction than a biological one: technical /industrial skills, Factory Acts, compulsory education have increasingly limited the spheres of activity for young people; the development of ‘youth culture’, successive legislation for children’s rights - all extend and foster actual dependency, even infantilisation. This significant for self perception. Universities arguably in loco parentis for undergraduates in their early twenties. Kids are kids for one helluva lot longer, and their ability to become independent is a helluva lot less - than ever before.
I’m all for education, sophisticated skills necessary for contemporary life, but it’s questionable how many of the ‘courses’ now offered in institutions are of genuine educational value, never mind actual employability, while the debt and loss of earnings accrued must be soul destroying. I’m not surprised your daughter’s digging her heels in, but think she’ll have to re think, and hopefully can find a suitable and promising avenue for experience and accreditation in the future.
 
Oh she will, she needs to rebuild her confidence in the education system after the time she's had this past few years. A period to find her feet in the world first will do her good, although with all the memories this thread is now stirring that may not be by helping out random people with their horses. I fear she will be taken advantage of and I think there are people out there who would think nothing of apportioning blame to a 16 year old for any incident, just because she's 16.
 
What an abysmal thing to say. Literally how dare you? I think I already said she's been struggling for years with an undiagnosed condition and yes, it's affected her whole life at times. Horse care (note not riding, two entirely different things) has been her respite. People like you @Andie02 are the reason why I'm having serious second thoughts about letting her near any other horse owners who would be in a position of power over her and more than likely abuse it. Some of you have mentally never left the school playground. Utterly shameful.
 
bonnysmum said:
I'm pretty sure that scenario is covered by her having personal accident insurance and the owner having public liability insurance, as you'd expect if they're using any freelancer. But anyhow, yes, all very true, although I don't think any of those points particularly change if she was a few years older. (I'm not sure why an owner should feel obliged to teach or continually safeguard someone who they're employing to help with menial jobs, but that's another story. She is not a novice.). What might change is her ability to assert herself if put under pressure to continue in what she considers to be a dangerous situation.

I'm thinking back to a few years ago. Keeping details scant for obvious reasons but she was helping out someone local - when she *was* a novice, and young - and for one reason or another she ended up having to feed and water three "not small" horses by herself. She felt uncomfortable and decided to withdraw from one of the stables rather than changing the water because the TB in question was being really fidgety and she was afraid she would be kicked Well the owner tore a strip off her for "panicking" and not pushing through the situation to do the job. I thought this was appalling and it was the beginning of the end of that arrangement. Personally I felt she should have been praised for reading the situation and keeping herself safe.

I realise this is coming at it from the opposite angle from most people here, who are understandably thinking about potential liabilities for the owners, but unfortunately my experience of the horse world is that there are a lot of cavalier attitudes like that. And the more this thread goes on the more I worry about the situations she could be put in through no fault of her own.

Now of course she would do her very best not to end up in this position, and obviously she has years more experience now, but now I've been reminded of that small incident and after the excellent points @maya2008 made, I do wonder. Perhaps I should be just as worried about her being exploited and put at risk as others are about their potential liabilities. Food for thought.
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Your example is actually brilliant because it illustrates the problem very well. She was asked to change the horse’s water and that job needed to be done by her. She did not have the skills or ‘presence’ to be able to do so and keep herself safe at the same time.

Paid work is a transaction. The person you hire should have the ability to complete the work safely in the time allowed. Equine work involves a live animal that may react completely differently to a 16 year old than to an experienced adult - so a job an adult can do with ease in 5 minutes might actually be dangerous for the teen. Teen can then not do the job (won’t be asked back and potentially putting the horse’s welfare at risk) or put themselves in danger trying to get it done. Neither of those are a good choice. That isn’t the fault of the adult who could do that job easily in 5 mins. That’s simply the wrong person for that job.
 
the problem here seems to be very simple. BM thinks her daughter is experienced. Owners realise from the comments that she is not. In fact possibly very far from experienced. They don't want to put their horses at risk and, certainly from my own POV I recognise that the daughter's lack of experience would very likely put herself at risk. It is not a cavalier attitude it is one of safety for both the horses and the daughter.

I'm afraid if your daughter works with horses she will be put in potentially dangerous situations as that is the nature of horses. Sometimes, however scared you are, you have to push on and deal with them. If you cannot do that then horse care may not be the right job.

I think from some of your comments BM that you yourself have little hands on experience of horses and are unaware of your daughter's lack of experience and the fact that, whatever her age, she would need supervision working with horses even doing small jobs around them. Whilst you want to do your best for her and that is admirable you are looking at this through rose tinted spectacles and many of us are looking at it through reality.
 
paddy555 said:
the problem here seems to be very simple. BM thinks her daughter is experienced. Owners realise from the comments that she is not. In fact possibly very far from experienced. They don't want to put their horses at risk and, certainly from my own POV I recognise that the daughter's lack of experience would very likely put herself at risk. It is not a cavalier attitude it is one of safety for both the horses and the daughter.

I'm afraid if your daughter works with horses she will be put in potentially dangerous situations as that is the nature of horses. Sometimes, however scared you are, you have to push on and deal with them. If you cannot do that then horse care may not be the right job.

I think from some of your comments BM that you yourself have little hands on experience of horses and are unaware of your daughter's lack of experience and the fact that, whatever her age, she would need supervision working with horses even doing small jobs around them. Whilst you want to do your best for her and that is admirable you are looking at this through rose tinted spectacles and many of us are looking at it through reality.
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No wonder you're all so panicked about liability. You bang on about risk and safety and then in the next breath spout nonsense like this. I'm glad you know my daughter so very well on the basis of a few posts on the internet. This thread has absolutely convinced me that she will be having nothing to do with other horse owners, end of. Anyone who thinks it's OK to tear a strip off a 10 year old for withdrawing from a situation in which she felt unsafe (and btw if she had got her head kicked in, the horse's owner would have been liable) is simply not worth listening to for another second.
 
Well this thread keeps taking weird turns.

I still think a decent FE college could have a role here, whether that's equine/animal care focused or other topics, in the end it might not matter too much if it builds life skills and confidence. FE can often be a place for young people to thrive despite having difficult school experiences, not least because you have more elements of choice about what you're spending your time studying. It really sounds like OP's daughter will benefit from the additional structure and support of FE. The world of work/adult life in general is full of people with weird and wonderful (or not!) expectations, that's not unique to the horse world, though I realise there is perhaps a particular brand of weird and wonderful there. The best we can do is learn different ways to manage that.

bonnysmum said:
No wonder you're all so panicked about liability. You bang on about risk and safety and then in the next breath spout nonsense like this. I'm glad you know my daughter so very well on the basis of a few posts on the internet. This thread has absolutely convinced me that she will be having nothing to do with other horse owners, end of. Anyone who thinks it's OK to tear a strip off a 10 year old for withdrawing from a situation in which she felt unsafe is simply not worth listening to for another second.
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In fairness, Maya didn't say that it was okay for your daughter to have been shouted at, and you haven't given a chance for her to respond to your post calling various people deranged and unpleasant. I think the point being made, was that the very nature of working with horses has risk - so if your daughter is looking to work professionally with them, there will be a fine balance between advocating for self when in difficult situations/feeling unsafe with needing to learn the skills to manage those situations.

In the example you gave, probably that was the right thing for a 10-year old child to do when she wasn't feeling safe, and no I don't agree with anyone 'tearing strips' off other people regardless of their age, but if this is something your daughter is thinking about taking forwards for work, it's going to involve learning what you do to give the fidgety horse it's water. Which again is why there are so many posts about learning the ropes via a professional/commercial yard, with or without a formal qualification structure alongside it.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
Well this thread keeps taking weird turns.

I still think a decent FE college could have a role here, whether that's equine/animal care focused or other topics, in the end it might not matter too much if it builds life skills and confidence. FE can often be a place for young people to thrive despite having difficult school experiences, not least because you have more elements of choice about what you're spending your time studying. It really sounds like OP's daughter will benefit from the additional structure and support of FE.


In fairness, Maya didn't say that it was okay for your daughter to have been shouted at, and you haven't given a chance for her to respond to your post calling various people deranged and unpleasant. I think the point being made, was that the very nature of working with horses has risk - so if your daughter is looking to work professionally with them, there will be a fine balance between advocating for self when in difficult situations/feeling unsafe with needing to learn the skills to manage those situations.

In the example you gave, probably that was the right thing for a 10-year old child to do when she wasn't feeling safe, and no I don't agree with anyone 'tearing strips' off other people regardless of their age, but if this is something your daughter is thinking about taking forwards for work, it's going to involve learning what you do to give the fidgety horse it's water. Which again is why there are so many posts about learning the ropes via a professional/commercial yard, with or without a formal qualification structure alongside it.
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Yes, which 5 years on, with a ton of volunteering, training and her own two horses, quite obviously she does!! If ever there was a straw man argument.

I have requested that this thread and my account is deleted. Against my better judgement I have shared too much personal info which others have turned against me to mock me AND my daughter. I will help her look after our horses, and I will help her find whatever training and experience she wants, but frankly this is yet more confirmation that in general I want nothing else to do with the horse world or a lot of the people in it.

Sorry to those who have been helpful and kind.
 
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bonnysmum said:
Yes, which 5 years on, with a ton of volunteering, training and her own two horses, quite obviously she does!! If ever there was a straw man argument.

I have requested that this thread and my account is deleted. I have shared too much info which others have turned against me to mock me AND my daughter. I will help her look after our horses, and I will help her find whatever training and experience she wants, but frankly this is yet more confirmation that in general I want nothing else to do with the horse world or a lot of the people in it.

Sorry to those who have been helpful and kind.
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Well I'm at a total loss as to how you have managed to take what I have posted in that way.

I have absolutely no idea why you are talking about straw man arguments; it has obviously escaped your attention that I'm not actually trying to argue with you?

Good luck to your daughter.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
Well I'm at a total loss as to how you have managed to take what I have posted in that way.

Good luck to your daughter.
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I didn't, I meant the thread in general. And I didn't mean you when I referred to the straw man. You have been helpful, thank you.

Much as I try I just don't fit in this world. But I am not her, I'm just the messenger and the bill payer, so any lack of experience detected in my posts is mine. It's unfair to judge her on my deficiencies, and she has plenty of professionals to advocate for her irl, she certainly doesn't need me. But thankfully a bunch of strangers on the internet with a tenth of the story don't actually matter.
 
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I hope you don't leave the forum, but I get why you're upset. I totally babysat horses on private yards as a teenager, probably with less of a clue than your daughter, and nobody died. The late-90s/early 2000s were a better time......

Like everyone, I've gotten spiky posts on the odd thread I've started, which either reflect unclear writing on my part or myopic reading comprehension on their part (doesn't matter), and in some cases, it's someone who just gets off on saying "you're wrong" and proving They Know More Than You And Are Probably A Better Person (this is the internet, after all). My wee trick is blanking it out. After a few minutes of getting upset, I pretend that post doesn't exist. My computer has a scroll function. Think of it as a mental user ignore button.
 
Caol Ila said:
I hope you don't leave the forum, but I get why you're upset. I totally babysat horses on private yards as a teenager, probably with less of a clue than your daughter, and nobody died. The late-90s/early 2000s were a better time......

My wee trick when I see spiky posts on one of my threads, which either reflect unclear writing on my part or myopic reading comprehension on their part (doesn't matter) or someone who just gets off on saying "you're wrong" (this is the internet, after all), I blank it out. After a few minutes of getting upset, I pretend that post doesn't exist. My computer has a scroll function. Think of it as a mental user ignore button.
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Thanks, but I've shared too much and users can't delete their own posts or threads so I don't see any other choice. I don't understand why people think it's OK to be so unpleasant, especially targeting a minor.
 
bonnysmum said:
I'm pretty sure that scenario is covered by her having personal accident insurance and the owner having public liability insurance, as you'd expect if they're using any freelancer.
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Most owners of private horses kept at home and who are only looking for occasional holiday care will not have their own public liability insurance covering people working for them.

Like many I have BHS Gold membership, and their full third party cover, but that does not cover people who are paid to handle my horses, it is for non paid people handling them with my permission. The freelancer is the one who needs to pro quality cover.

Your teenager would have to deal confidently and in an articulate way face to face with the owners of the horses she cares for in order to be briefed thoroughly and keep them in the loop. It’s not just the horse care. Would she be comfortable to do that?
 
I honestly think that a lot of the issue is the blurring between child you protect and trainee adult you send out into the world to learn via the route of hard knocks as it were.

I have a 10 year old. Would I have dreamed that anyone would have their 10 year old ‘helping’ with full sized horses that were not theirs on a yard? No. A ten year old child is still in primary school. They play still, with dolls or Lego or Breyer models or whatever. I assumed that the child in the water example was 13/14 minimum. The age I started helping others decades ago.

The crux of the matter is that a child needs safeguarding and care and supervision by someone knowledgeable. An adult does not. Teens can get jobs doing paper rounds and in shops out of school hours and in riding schools doing menial work but they are ever supervised as all entry level positions are. In England teens can get an apprenticeship which is part supervised work part study. Back through time apprenticeships started at 13 ish with a hefty dose of supervision and training over the ensuing years.

An adult can get a job that is unsupervised and be reasonably expected to complete it independently. They both earn more and have more responsibility. They are old enough to drive themselves, to figure out their own way round problems and keep themselves safe while getting the work done.

Adults can work freelance. Competent teens can poo pick and ragwort, muck out and sweep if horses out in the fields, dog walk for friendly dogs on the lead, wash cars, mow lawns, earn pocket money.
 
maya2008 said:
I have a 10 year old. Would I have dreamed that anyone would have their 10 year old ‘helping’ with full sized horses that were not theirs on a yard? No. A ten year old child is still in primary school. They play still, with dolls or Lego or Breyer models or whatever. I assumed that the child in the water example was 13/14 minimum. The age I started helping others decades ago.
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I wrongly trusted (so I thought) an experienced friend. I was horrified she was left on her own in that position.
maya2008 said:
Adults can work freelance. Competent teens can poo pick and ragwort, muck out and sweep if horses out in the fields, dog walk for friendly dogs on the lead, wash cars, mow lawns, earn pocket money.
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The latter being what this entire thread is about, and I don't know why so many people have insisted on twisting my words, and in a couple of cases been extremely cruel with it.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Most owners of private horses kept at home and who are only looking for occasional holiday care will not have their own public liability insurance covering people working for them
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The poster was musing about what insurance a horse owner would need to cover themselves if a dreadful accident happened. I answered. The question of insurance for the person working is already well covered.
 
I have a lovely teenager who helps me with my 3 girls! She was 16 and a complete novice when she started helping me. So if I went away, she would poo pick and I would get a friend to feed/ check them twice a day. She is now 19 and looks after them by herself although I do get my neighbour to glance over fence to check them periodically. If there are any problems, she calls my neighbour.
Mine are out 24/7 so fed twice a day, given soaked hay and poo picked so nothing too tricky. I think it depends on the situation! Could she look after (friend’s/ people you know) horses?
 
I left school at 16 and started working. I will admit that I agree with the poster who said it might be more helpful for a young person to have a boss or supervisor to get work ethic installed for a first proper job. I worked for my uncle and I thought he was a PITA at the time but he did install work ethic and how you should behave in a workplace.
I’ve worked with quite a few young people (and tbf several older folk) who don’t seem to see anything wrong with their behaviour at work. I could get away with the things they do in my current job but I know better that that is not how you should behave.

On the other hand the same as Caol Ila, me and my friend looked after several ponies at a trekking centre as well as the people’s dogs, cats and house when we were young teenagers. We didn’t ride obviously but we were left alone (with our parents along the road) and we wouldn’t have known all the ways horses could hurt themselves. Thankfully everything went great and we had a brilliant time.

I must admit when I leave my horses with other folk I go with the assumption that they will behave for a few days. A silly assumption for horses likely 😂 but I couldn’t enjoy having horses if I worry about every single eventually that might happen just because I’m away for a weekend
 
bonnysmum said:
The latter being what this entire thread is about, and I don't know why so many people have insisted on twisting my words, and in a couple of cases been extremely cruel with it.
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this is what you asked in your OP


She's just left school and she has her BHS Stage 1. The ideal would be a few regular customers spread across the week but holiday cover is an option too of course.

Firstly, insurance. What does she need? Public liability of course but I'm also thinking professional indemnity? What if, god forbid, someone's horse injures itself or colics and the owner blames her?

Secondly, do you use this kind of service yourself

that is what was answered. As we went along the story became very different.
 
Your daughter sounds to be the sort of teenager we need more of. Someone prepared to put the hard work in and earn a living for herself. I had a girl help me out at lambing this year, she wasn't quite 15 and absolutely excellent with a real work ethic. She was doing it for experience not pay as she wants to go into farmwork. She has problems at school so is part home schooled. Fantastic polite girl who can turn her hand to most things. I am sure both she and your daughter will go far in life. I wish your daughter all the luck in the world.
 
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