natural horsemanship

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Patent...?

Oh dear..don't tell me you never got around to it? Oh well, lesson learnt

Sqip

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bugger..story of my life, eh.....

just haven't got it in me to be a story teller and a rip-off merchant......
 
Thanks to all for a very interesting discussion. Good to get an insight into why some people feel so opposed to Parelli and NH. Only wish others on here had felt able to join in and express their views. I guess I will just have to accept that some people have their reasons but just do not wish to explain them.

Good night all, don't have too troubled a night's sleep coming to terms JM07, it will pass in time!
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Sqip
 
I completely agree that horses are very different and that great horsepeople are usually the ones that can correctly identify the type of horse they have in front of them and know what kind of response will work best. Clearly knowing whether the horse is completely still because it is paralysed with fear or because it is taking the piss and napping is crucial, as a very pro-active approach might terrify the first animal further, but might sort out the second one. My problem is that the horsenality stuff seems entirely made up. It doesn't accurately describe horses, it doesn't correspond to any theory about what the animals are like, and it doesn't help with identifying your own animal (in fact some of it reads like a horoscope, something for everyone - but I don't like astrology either
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p.s. thanks Pirani (and Sqippa for moderating) for probably the best discussion on HHO since I joined!
 
I don't see why everyone makes a big deal of people having been practicing NH without knowing the term and buying the equipment. Many/most NH teachers acknowledge that their teachings have roots based in the horsemanship of"good horsemen/women," who understood and interacted with their horses to great effect.

For me, its all on a massive sliding scale, with two extremes, and most of us are somewhere in the middle. The only way to make a distinction is between the extreme that says its your responsibility to learn your horse's language and make your instructions clear to him in a way that is easy for him to understand, and the other which is he must learn your language, no meeting in the middle, and if he doesn't obey he must be punished as you must DOMINATE your horse!

As I say, most of us are somewhere in between!
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Good night all, don't have too troubled a night's sleep coming to terms JM07, it will pass in time!
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Sqip

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a troubled nights sleep due to the bollox that is mr and mrs parelli????

i think not.

but thank you for your concern squip....an old lady is deeply comforted..
 
I think it's debates like these that have got a lot of trainers dropping the word "natural". They are different to Parelli, and don't want to be associated with the bad press.
Put it this way, I know some trainers who look rather like "natural" horsemen, but they can't possibly be - because they continue to study whoever they feel is an interesting and good horseman, and they are not afraid to admit that they have learnt from them. That would be from whatever background, a cowboy, a classical rider, even heaven forbid BHS people.
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My experience of Monty Roberts trainers, and Parelli instructors, and Pat Parelli himself is that it is their way or the highway. I think to a certain extent they find it hard to avoid this as they want to be sure that there is continuity in what their associates teach. The trainers I respect are the ones who are not afraid to admit if they got something wrong, and who are constantly open to learning.
I do have problems with the Parelli method (and some Monty stuff too), but that involves detail and the post is too bloo*y long as it is!
 
For another point. I've found Parelli enthusiasts think they are the most open minded people in the equine world as they dont stick to BHS rules or classical rules. And as someone who has worked in the Parelli office with their instructors and managers. I actually find them to be extremely close minded. Like if you dont follow Parelli's way exactly then you dont belong there. Another way to put it.. if you dont follow Parelli's way exactly then you dont treat your horse good.

But thats just the way they made me feel as someone who at the time didnt have a horse therefore hadnt practised their methods. To be honest I felt discriminated against as there wasnt one other person who they employed that didnt do Parelli.
 
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I don't see why everyone makes a big deal of people having been practicing NH without knowing the term and buying the equipment. Many/most NH teachers acknowledge that their teachings have roots based in the horsemanship of"good horsemen/women," who understood and interacted with their horses to great effect.


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Well, hell yes. I mean, even these legendary horse people that some of the above learnt from 30-odd years ago didn't invent it did they? They learnt from someone too. Nothing is new under the sun.
 
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I don't see why everyone makes a big deal of people having been practicing NH without knowing the term and buying the equipment. Many/most NH teachers acknowledge that their teachings have roots based in the horsemanship of"good horsemen/women," who understood and interacted with their horses to great effect.

For me, its all on a massive sliding scale, with two extremes, and most of us are somewhere in the middle. The only way to make a distinction is between the extreme that says its your responsibility to learn your horse's language and make your instructions clear to him in a way that is easy for him to understand, and the other which is he must learn your language, no meeting in the middle, and if he doesn't obey he must be punished as you must DOMINATE your horse!

As I say, most of us are somewhere in between!
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Do I get to use the word 'continuum' yet?
S
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Well I have been asking that one myself S!

I'm guessing most people see it as training based on an understanding of how horses would behave naturally, so using techniques used in herds, working with an appreciation of how horses behave/think etc. I believe that Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell and Pat Parelli all base their methods on this understanding.

I therefore guess that non-natural horsemanship works by not taking these in to account and not trying to understand rather to tell the horse to do something and then make it do it if it doesn't.

The reality is that most of us would like to think that we try to understand our horses and to work with them. I'm not actually sure that non-natural horsemanship actaully exists anymore except in the hands of a very few evil, cruel individuals none of whom are on here.

So yes JM07, I hate to say it but I think you might be a NH. But I'm sure you'll get over it
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Squip

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I can't find the quote I mentioned and can't stay up all night looking for it. This is a link to a site with more information about xenophon and his teachings. Good horsemanship was never about cruelty or brute force. The way the modern day gurus claim to teach some kind of new revolutionary alterative to the ''cruel traditional meathods'' is what really gets peoples backs up.
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http://www.powerset.com/explore/go/On-Horsemanship-(Xenophon)
 
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So come on guys, I've asked before...what is your problem with Parelli and what is your opinion based on???


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If you've asked before then you've probably heard this before; Mostly I hate that the people who practise Parelli are so evangelical and smug about theirs being the only proper way to train horses.
I could go on, but I don't feel any need to justify my dislike of Parelli, any more than I give a sh:t why people think it's so bl**dy wonderful. I just disagree. Nothing personal.
 
Yes... I must admit, every time I settle down to type on a Parelli or NH thread I get this awful feeling of deja vu.
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p.s. What are my opinions based on? I've been there, done it and got all the T Shirts. Nothing like first-hand experience to clarify exactly why you don't do something any more.
 
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[quoteDo I get to use the word 'continuum' yet?
S
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Sigh. Oh, if you must.

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Please don't, I am unsure what it means.
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Thanks Sqippa for your suport I wasn't getting at anyone.Shilsdair, do you know I hadn't thought of a definition of natural horsemanship I just knew it was different from my old (and very good, totally none BHS instructor). He basically putthe fear of God into his horses and they behaved perfectly.His technical side was excellent though and he found me the most fabulous horse.He also gave me a lot of laughs BUT things did get very rough at times. However I always thought ALL horses led, loaded etc. and was very suprisedwhen I found out they didn't/ I had to find things out for myself. Some NH instructors are crap but I just came on a good one. Iwas lucky.
 
My local trainer is a very talented classical rider, she has studied with some of the great names. She spent some time as a Parelli student, has moved on to a less confrontational but similar approach, and combines all of this with Alexander training - with some lovely results.
That is what is so daft about any "system" that sets itself up as the only way, good horsemanship is just that, you might use slightly different tools and techniques, but the results should look the same shouldn't they?
 
QR:
You Parelli lot are like my god bothering relatives,just drop it- and quite frankly why have smartprice when you can have Heinz?
Parelli is bullshit, its for gullable people who have too much money.
NH is common sense, just repackaged, again for the gullable.
Me? I'm oldschool ponyclub/ daughter of the proper hardcore hunting type, and that is the only way to go honey- I spend my pennies on the port that goes in my hunting flask- not the rope sticks to tickle my horse's ears with...
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QR:
You Parelli lot are like my god bothering relatives,just drop it- and quite frankly why have smartprice when you can have Heinz?
Parelli is bullshit, its for gullable people who have too much money.
NH is common sense, just repackaged, again for the gullable.
Me? I'm oldschool ponyclub/ daughter of the proper hardcore hunting type, and that is the only way to go honey- I spend my pennies on the port that goes in my hunting flask- not the rope sticks to tickle my horse's ears with...
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Daughter..AMEN!!!!
 
Firstly congratulations for the debate- it has been very controlled!
My observations are based on my best friend who follows all P principles to the extend that both her and her 11 year old daughter use P ground work before (or in place of riding) every day. These sessions can last anything from 45 mins to 2 hours. She knows I don't agree with much of what she does and agree to disagree!
I went with her to a P demo and was not impressed as the horses all reacted the same- IMO much of P becomes taught behaviour rather than instinctive. There isn't any individuality, and no it wasn't because they were well trained; the horses were going through the motions. Playing the games becomes so reinforced they become automatic in the same way we who sin by 'lungeing' do.
However, my main issue is how the horses are not encouraged to use themselves physically in many of the ground games. Moving sideways is NOT lateral work- it is moving sideways (there is a huge difference). Encouraging your horse to run backwards with it's heads up (to show emotion and energy ) away from a shaking 20 metre line and a carrot stick with a plastic bag on the end of it shows no respect for your horses and could cause more physical problems in the back and neck than it could ever cure.
 
2 HOURS??

that is wrong.....

nobody should subject a horse/pony to 2 hours of schooling..whichever type its from...
 
Yep, that's the problem with Parelli, it's by no means the best example of this type of training. My problems with Parelli training:
Bull clips.
Yo Yo "game"
4 phases
Calling work "games"
Not teaching the true meaning of the "friendly game"
Failing to link groundwork with ridden work.
Working horses in patterns for too long
Encouraging the horses to work incorrectly.
Riding with Fluidity (aaargh!).
Shimming saddles up to compensate for poor fit.
Bits to fit "horsenalities"
Horsenalities
Forget the hype, the clothes, the music, the money-making... I don't care about that. I am only interested in the training method and what effect it has on the horses.
Am I against "NH" style training? Nope. Not the good stuff.
Grrr and goodnight.
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I agree that their DVD's/membership is quite pricey but there again so are a realy fab pair of Jods, a lovely pair of Ariat boots, a snuggly new Fal rug so why aren't people moaning about that.

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Probably because the fab pair of jods, the lovely ariat boots and the snuggly new fal rug are a lot more use than a carrot stick and a rope, then again those that are not into Parelli and actually ride their horses would prefer to spend their money on the clothing to actually ride in and put it to use!
Sorry not a parelli fan at all, have seen some real horrible things going on with "parelli people" who think their horses have issues which need sorting, when half the time spending two hours plus is the reason there are issues - the horse is fed up with doing the same thing over and over!
 
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Ahhh- but the horses have regular breaks where they graze and absorb the lesson and rest their minds...

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Classic!!!!
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OOOOOps:
Delete 'lesson' and enter 'game'.
Delete 'mind' and enter 'right brain/left brain'.
See how easy it is to speak horseanality?
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Ahhh- but the horses have regular breaks where they graze and absorb the lesson and rest their minds...

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I cannot believe you just wrote that. I would expect my barbie to come out with a quote like that- are you all there?
 
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