Navicular/soft tissue changes and bar shoes - what are your thoughts/experiences?

Meowy Catkin

Meowy Catkin

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As title. :)

Has your horse been diagnosed with this problem, did you try bar shoes (egg or heart or both?) and was the treatment successful/unsuccessful?
 
Horse has been diagnosed with caudal hoof pain. Currently waiting for MRI scan results. Tried wedged pads for last 8wks but they dont seem be suiting him so they're now off. Waiting to see what we'll try next but it def wont be eggbars as cant find any articles recommending the use of those these days.
 
my vet hasn't even mentioned eggbars and hopefully wont! There was an article in InPractice magazine (vet mag) last month about navicular syndrome and they said eggbars were very much out these days. They mentioned heart bars, wedges etc and also were in support of barefoot as an alternative option.
 
She wont consider BF at the mo, as the horse was briefly BF but was never fully comfortable on smooth tarmac, this has made her worried about taking his shoes off again (the trimmer did take far too much hoof off IMO).
 
It's not an option for mine either at the moment. He is lame without shoes or hoofboots and has very thin soles. I haven't written it off as an option but there are other routes I want to explore first.
 
No thoughts, but interested in replies as we're going for mri next week. Took shoes off last week in preperation and thought any time barefoot may help. So far she is very comfortable, but I've already done too much googling considering I don't yet know the extent of the soft tissue damage!
 
My boy had graduated wedged heart bars and they didnt work for him. We also tried steroid injections which made no improvement so I took him the barefoot route and he was sound on a circle after 8 weeks. Not for everyone but its work for us :)

I hope you find success in your choices too :)
 
Mine is in egg bars and is sound, touches wood! Not sure why or how it works but while he is ok I am ok. Thanks to this place at least I know there are other options if this stops working. Been in egg bars since September last year.
 
I have a TB with navicular, I tried him in eggbars! Initially they seemed great and I thought it had been a good decision, but this was shortlived and after six months he was becoming more uncomfortable especially after shoeing and would stand and point a lot of the time!
I made the decision to go barefoot even though my vet thought it was a bad idea! The eggbars had ruined his feet, they were weak with paper thin soles.
Barefoot has not been an easy option for us, he was so sore to start off with that he had to be turned out in boots and pads for about eleven weeks, but he has slowly improved, much healthier feet which he can go out bare on , if its smooth tarmac and for anything else he is booted!
I also now have a much happier horse who does not point anymore and I think if he can do it, there are plenty more with "typical TB rubbish feet" that could too!!
It does require patience as in some cases it is not a quick fix!
 
Have been down the road of Eggbar shoes with and without wedges.

Have been down the road of injections into the joints etc.

Wasted all my Insurance money and have now taken my mares shoes off. Changed the diet etc. Todate nearly 4 weeks down the line and she is sound in walk, along the road and forest tracks up and down small hills to.

She is so much happier with out her shoes.
 
Leg_end said:
My boy had graduated wedged heart bars and they didnt work for him. We also tried steroid injections which made no improvement so I took him the barefoot route and he was sound on a circle after 8 weeks. Not for everyone but its work for us :)

I hope you find success in your choices too :)
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When you say they didn't work, what problems did they cause? Vet is now talking about graduated shoes and I'm just not convinced given the horse's reaction to graduated wedges.
 
Apologies in advance for any mistakes. On my phone and know this will be long!

My mum, against my advice, bought a mare unvetted and didn't insure. The mare was from down south, presented sound when we viewed and tried her. It was another fortnight before the transporter could bring her up the road.

She had a fairly long journey and came off the lorry walking short. We thought (hoped) she was just stiff but as it didn't improve vet was called, x rays taken and navicular diagnosed.

Time rolled on; she was retired to the field and managed on 1/3 sachet of bute that over 18mths ended up being one sachet.

Original practice was a mixed practice. Head vet said he couldn't really see anything on the x ray so had sent the plates to the vet uni hospital for a second opinion. A very small bone cyst was reported to be the reason for the navicular, so small our vet couldn't see it, and we were instructed to carry on as is until she broke down? Vet also said it was fine to take a foal off her and would be a shame not to given her breeding etc. We did not take a foal btw.

With no answers coming from any direction I figured there was nothing to lose by trying this barefoot shenanigans that I'd briefly read about on here.

I knew rock all and was of the impression that only ponies and cobs could be barefoot.

So trimmer came, pulled shoes, trimmed feet, sold me those really thick pads that you use alone ( they have them on Equine Podiatry Supplies and are the pads that aren't comfort pads, the big white things) and told me to buy boots. She took photos and advised me to feed Hi-Fi lite, mag ox heavy and Equimins Diamond Omega. I was told to have her out as much as possible ( she was a VERY good doer) and if she trotted in the field that was a good sign. Mare wasn't happy on anything apart from grass but I was told to walk her over stones.

I didn't know anything about barefoot but I hated seeing mare so uncomfortable and couldn't bring myself to walk her.

At this point I changed to a purely equine practice. They were ( are) vehemently anti- barefoot and advised ( told) me to shoe asap. Under vets instructions I had her shod with wedges (wedged eggbars). I was ridiculously happy as here I was, a good owner paying for a special vet and getting special expensive shoes on every 4 wks.

I should perhaps mention that despite asking for the original x rays for 2 yrs I was never shown them. When I moved practice the new practice requested and got the plates. New vet brought the plates with him and as he pulled them out of the envelope I could clearly see massive lollipop lesions on the edge of the navicular bone. It does make me wonder what original vet (& vet hospital) weren't seeing!

I can't remember the exact dates but think I moved to the equine practice at the end of feb 2009 and got the " remedial" shoes on around March time.

Mare was pts Nov 2009 as it had advanced. She was on two bute a day and rapidly going down hill.

The experience with the trimmer (EP) and subsequent advice and opinions from " expert" vets just reaffirmed to me that horses NEED shoes.

There is then another epic tale regarding my one in a million TB mare. The short version is, that despite passing a five stage vetting, I've never felt she was quite right. Other things happened that were blamed but even after they were treated I still felt that there was something going on. Again I prided myself in being a good owner. Never longer than 6wks between shoeing by a vet approved farrier, used equine vets and I fed according to expert opinions. No expense spared on cubes, mixes and supplements as instructed by expert nutritionists. I've always wanted to learn more and done all I could to further my knowledge; everything I learnt confirmed that I was doing the right thing for my horses.

So still thinking mare wasn't right I trotted her up for equine vets who found nothing. I'm sure they thought I was barmy. This trot up would be around oct 2009.

I moved to a different catchment area and certain things lead me to getting that yards vet out. This was march 2010. This vet said spavins and kissing spine.

I took mare to vet uni hospital in April 2010 for a full work up. Definitely no ks or spavins and she was passed sound.

May 2010 she was noticeably lame but initially it seemed to improve with box rest and hosing/icing. When it came back in June I got my vets back. Things weren't looking good... I took her back into their clinic the following week and advanced navicular was diagnosed. Vet said that based on the x rays it would have been under lying for at least 9 mths. You do the maths...

The options were limited; denerve, chemical denerve or bute her until she broke completely. I didn't agree wuth these " options" and despite my previous bad experience I asked about barefoot to be told absolutely not. I decided to have her pts so that she would not have any further pain or discomfort.

Although I was completely heart broken I had a small comfort that I'd done my best, had " experts" involved and there really was nothing that I could have done.

And then my path crossed CPTrayes...

Her posts lead to me starting one about barefoot "curing" navicular. In turn I went out and bought Pete Ramey, Jaime Jackson & Feet First books.

I could barely read them through my tears. Everything just made sense; just plain old common sense. How could shoes ever have fixed or saved my girls???

So my reason for this lengthy, and probably thread killing, post is that you said your horse CAN'T be bf, then really the question is WHY can't he/she?

I'd give anything for my time over. A chance to fix the root cause and not mask it.

Surely only a matter of time until it becomes accepted that shoes physically CAN'T help/fix/cure navicular and that barefoot really is the only option.

Tbh the best person to ask is someone who is completely non horsey. It just doesn't make any sense to nail a fixed metal rim onto a mobile load carrying concussion absorbing structure!
 
star said:
When you say they didn't work, what problems did they cause? Vet is now talking about graduated shoes and I'm just not convinced given the horse's reaction to graduated wedges.
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They compressed his heels further and made no improvement to his way of going or soundness. We tried for three shoeing rounds and although he initially improved it was only a couple of weeks before he went downhill again. He was ok in a straight line (but he was prior to any intervention!) but circles were an issue.

I wasn't willing to delay any further without action.
 
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Star- wedges will rotate the P3 angle. Especially with thin soles you can see why that's an issue...
 
His pedal bones are currently at one degree angle to his sole so maybe the vet wants the wedges to try and improve this? Not a good idea if it's gonna send his pedal bones through his soles though. I need to talk to vet and farrier tomorrow but not happy with the wedged anything idea.
 
So sad to think any horses suffer unnecessarily. Especially when (myself included) we are following strict veterinary guidance. Farriers too are not in the business of laming horses intentionally. I find the fors and against so baffling.
Guess we all just have to find out for ourselves. At least there are choices!
 
Very interesting post TPO, thanks for posting. I am very sorry that you lost two horses in such a heartbreaking way.

When the owner asked me what I would do with the horse if he was mine, I said that I would send him to Rockley, but she's worried by BF as he wasn't quite right without shoes before.

She has seen my own horse (who was nearly PTS with hoof problems causing tendon issues) recover fully once the shoes were off and a new Farrier was hired, but she wants to try remedial shoeing and as he is her horse, that is her decision to make.

ETA.
Guess we all just have to find out for ourselves.
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PP- this does seem to be the case.
 
My horse has impar ligament strain and me and my farrier both have a hatred for egg bars but after an MRI at leahurst the vet there recommended egg bars, we had tried graduated bar shoes with equipak, they helped but not for long so after discussion with my vet who also is not a fan, we decided to give them a go, now I have to say, although they did not make him sound, they made quite a difference to his feet in two shoeings, he grew quite a lot of heel, more than any other shoeings had managed. I decided to turn my horse away for a year so took them off, but I would put them back in if his feet deteriorated at any point.
 
I have returned two horses to full work after long term lameness with a barefoot rehab. One was still lame in bar shoes, the other was resolved for about six months, then lame again, in bar wedges.
 
I have posted a few times about this...

My little mare was bilaterally lame in front with reverse rotated pedal bones, collapsed heels and generally pretty knackered (not including the kissing spines and spavin...).

Vet suggested graduated heartbars. I was very sceptical esp. after reading up about them at length on the internet. I said we could try them but they were not to be a long term solution. She felt very, very strange with them on and I hated seeing her in them. She had 2 sets on and then I said enough.

She had her shoes taken off in March and is totally field sound. She has been retired now because I didn't think it was fair on her to try and get her right again. She is 17 though and has had a fairly hard life. I honestly believe it is a lifetime of shoeing that got her feet so bad in the first place.

My way of thinking now is that the day a horse can't be shod normally (i.e egg bars/heart bars/graduated wedges is suggested) is the day the shoes come off. I know how painful it is to wear high heels or wedges and how differently they make you walk. I refuse to put my horses through anything like that again. Sorry if that's not much help!!
 
I'll join in ;)

I have a horse recently diagnosed with ddft issues in both front feet with navicular type changes starting. This was on MRI about 6 weeks ago.

He has heart bar shoes on atm but I am planning to get them off in the next week or two and try him barefoot. The prognosis wasn't good for return to full work (jumping up to 1.20) and guarded for anything much, so rubbish really :(

However, I have a horse on the yard belonging to a livery client, and he is in heart bars with a mild navicular diagnosis from 2010. His symptoms are much improved and he is comfortable, but he is 21 and semi-retired anyway. My own horse is only 8, so I feel it is worth trying to get him sound for the long term, and the only realistic way of doing this is without shoes in the first instance. His feet don't look terrible externally, but obv. aren't healthy internally.

My own vet is supportive and positive about my plan, not so sure about my farrier.
 
TPO - what a wonderfully honest post!

My horse has navicular in both front feet - gone barefoot. Too much to go into, but yes it was the right decision for me. I never even tried remedial shoeing. And mine is a TB. Manages fine on tarmac but will boot for any stoney rides.
 
Now I'm on a PC I decided to look back for me "how does BF "cure" navic thread" so here it is: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=416024

Some very good replies on it.

In the interest of balance here's a post I made at the time of new equine vets (who funnily enough I am no longer with!) telling me to put shoes back on:http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=235081

You live and you learn... I just hope that by being honest that one day someone else can learn by my mistakes and either not put their horse(s) through it and ultimately not lose them.

Sorry to single you out WellyBaggins but I'm interested in your reply where you said if the feet deterioate you'd put eggbars back on. I'm genuinely interested in your view point. How do you think nailing on shoes will help the foot?

I've seen in several threads users say that either they shoe or shoes are needed to support and protect the foot yet no one, so far, has been able to elaborate on those statements as to the how and why. Would you be willing to share your view point? I'm genuinely interested as I can't understand the rationale behind it.

FWIW my point of view NOW (my previous posts clearly show that it wasn't always so!) is that if a foot deteroiates I need to look at what's going on inside and review feed and/or the stimulation that the foot receives. It if needs protection then a boot and pad offers that where as a shoe is only a rim approx 0.5cm depth and width; what about the rest of the foot?

Sorry to take it off topic and thank you in advance.
 
I agree with you about boots and pads TPO, I took my boy down a path today that had big stones along it, he managed well in his boots, where as previously he had struggled in eggbars! Boots give better protection than shoes.:)
 
Got the MRI results for my horse today and it is all good - no damage to any of the soft tissues so just have to try and sort out his foot balance a bit better. He is seeing Liphooks remedial farrier in a couple of weeks but if I have my way he won't be shod with anything wedged or barred.
 
TPO, great post. I was also a negative nelly on the whole BF thing too. I have done a complete turnaround. And I now have my older TB mare bare. If I look back on the history of when she started going lame I know realise she was mechanically foundered at 10months pregnant by a butcher of a BS. Mare had been bare all her life and and I was left with a crippled heavily pregnant mare with pony feet. It was horrific. 6 months later she had an abcess which at the time my vet thought could be an infection in the bone. We treated agressively and the boot I made out of sheet cotton, vet rap, and duck tape, and other materials was epic. She did not have an ifected joint but we shod with pads and she was better but she has deteriorated. She got to where she isn't holding weight and tests say nothing wrong but I felt it was low grade pain. I have kept shoes on her because she was so crippled without. For the first 2 weeks we made padded boots. Now she's out of them and doing ok. She was never in work so I hand walk but also let her out in the arena to have a run around on soft ground to encourage movement. She is letting her guarded posture down if that makes sense. Two nights ago she took off at a trot across the hard ground and had a buck. That was amazing because she wasn't doing that in shoes. So work in progress. This forum has been so helpful. Oberon, CP, Lucy, they all really help you see what's what.

Terri
 
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