Navicular Syndrome in a Connemara 5 YR old - how common?

[swellhillcottage]

Hi all

as it the title really - sadly my lovely just five 14.2 Dun Connie has just been diagnosed with Palma Foot Pain in both fronts also he seems to have an abnormality in the Right hock and I am awaiting more information re that from the " Specialist".
So I am just wondering if any one else has had anything similar and what was the outcome - This is a lovely pony with an excellent kind temperament and would probably be successful in whatever he does and I would spend the money on him if he was fixable but as with everything in this world especially with horses there are no guarantees. I am wondering whether the Front feet which are between 1/10 and 3/10 lame on 10 meter circles on Concrete are secondary lame because of the hock - there is discomfort upon the hind hock flexion and on the flexion test the residual lameness disappeared after 2/3 strides but he is 2/10 lame RH on upon blocking both fronts - so basically lame in 3 legs.
Once Navicular syndrome is diagnosed can it ever get fixed or is it just manageable and how much of a life can a horse go on to have bearing in mind this guy is just 5 and I don't believe he has had that much mileage - I have had him a year and he has done not a lot except grow and eat - it goes without saying I am gutted.


Thank you in advance Cookies if you get to here!!

Also posted in The Tack Room.

 

[AnShanDan]

If you are insured I'd be pressing for MRI of the front feet, that would give you so much more info. and let you know what the prognosis was more accurately.

Hocks and soft tissue damage in the front feet often go together, yes. Not to say that it can't be treated, certainly hocks are frequently successfully treated.

Is your pony shod and if so what are his feet like?

 

[Scarlett]

There are many schools of thought on this one - here's mine...

Google Rockley Farm, they rehab horses with feet issues. Their success rate is astonishing. The barefoot rehab can be done at home - my mare is back in full work after diagnosis 3 years ago, and there are many, many more on here with a similar story.

Remedial shoeing is also an option but, IMO, it only hides the problem and doesn't fix it. Many of the horse I know of who were remedial shod never returned to a full workload.

 

[tigger01]

I second Scarlett. Look at Rockley Farm - inspirational. I have a 15.1 show cob diagnosed with navicular syndrome 5 years ago. I went down the barefoot route - and have never looked back. He now hunts, wh, xc, shows and hacks happily. I do have to watch what he eats. But I know what he's like now and like it or not, he's in on soaked hay and out on a fairly bare paddock. Investigate barefoot - I know lots of people poo-poo it but it does work. But not an instant fix - it took a while for him to feel comfortable with the transition. Hoof boots will become your friend!! Good luck.

 

[swellhillcottage]

AnShanDan He is sadly not insured and I have set a £1000 limit on diagnostic treatment and already at £600!! but reading up what ever the outcome of the MRI the treatment is relatively the same. He is shod and has fabulous feet - I did try keeping shoes off him but he did get footsore so we had him shod - he is extremely naughty to shoe and now we know why.

Scarlett I will have a look at Rockley Farm.
Sadly this is almost the end of the road with me and horses after 3 years of a huge amount of bad luck and me still recovering from a very smashed left leg I thought buying a 3 year old it should be unspoilt and sound!

 

[criso]

I would also look at whether HWSS (Hoof Wall separation syndrome) is a factor. This is a genetic condition in Connemaras and could be an underlying factor. I believe there is a genetic test for it.

 

[Casey76]

Have you had xrays done of the front feet?

Navicular "syndrome" is an oft used term which basically related to "pain the back of the hoof" unless you have confirmed evidence of impar ligament involvement, or of changes to the navicular bone, then you can't really know what you are dealing with.

Yes, if you take his shoes off he may be a little footsore to start with, because he has no callous on the sole to protect him from sharp stones. However with a gradual build up of exercise, unless his feet are very distorted to begin with, then he should harden up quickly. You should see changes to the back portion of the foot as the digital cushion beefs up, and as the frog enlarges and spreads.

 

[ester]

AnShanDan He is sadly not insured and I have set a £1000 limit on diagnostic treatment and already at £600!! but reading up what ever the outcome of the MRI the treatment is relatively the same. He is shod and has fabulous feet - I did try keeping shoes off him but he did get footsore so we had him shod - he is extremely naughty to shoe and now we know why.

Scarlett I will have a look at Rockley Farm.
Sadly this is almost the end of the road with me and horses after 3 years of a huge amount of bad luck and me still recovering from a very smashed left leg I thought buying a 3 year old it should be unspoilt and sound!

If this is the situation please consider the barefoot route, with boots if necessary (they can be used for turnout if required). there is a lot of info, help and support out there now from diet onwards.
I'd think it probably secondary to the hock situation- but they do move differently if they have sore feet and I'd think it might well improve with the slow building up of walking usually done on a bf rehab too.

What are the state of his hooves generally? does he have long toes/under run heels/poor palmar hoof generally. Criso if HWSS would there have to be a certain amount of flakiness on the hoof wall visible to be a possible positive anyway?

 

[swellhillcottage]

Casey full Xrays feet, back and hocks were done all bar the hock were clear.
Criso - I am aware of HWSS and in this instance his feet are no way near a candidate for this disease.
Ester - This pony has fabulous feet with very good foot balance and he was barefoot for a good few months last summer including road work and schooling in a hard field and coped very well for a good 2 months until we started jumping then he got very obviously sore and rather than turn him sour and abuse his good nature we put shoes on him - I am not averse to bare foot and I did talk extensively to the vet about this but she felt in his case right now he needs support under that heel to diminish any inflamed areas - long term if his feet improve with the remedial farriery yes we will try again with barefoot but at the moment I have to go with what my vet recommends - it is not cut and dried a front foot issue as the hock I feel is the main issue and if that is not fixable the feet will never have a chance

 

[criso]

Once the Navicular syndrome is diagnosed can it ever get fixed or is it just manageable and how much of a life can a horse go on to have bearing in mind this guy is just 5 and I don't believe he has had that much mileage - .

In that case if you have x rayed the front feet and in the absence of any bone abnormalities, we can assume some sort of soft tissue damage. If you go down the traditional route of renedial farriery and current drug therapies, between about 10% and 20% (depending which specific tendons and ligaments are involved) back to full work according to recent studies.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2010.00081.x/pdf

Barefoot route has a much better success rate but is not necessarily an easy route and can involve rethinking some of the ways you keep horses.

I didn't know about barefoot as an approach for these sort of injuries so I followed the vets advice on shoeing which was much the same as yours, over 18 months his feet got worse and worse and he got lamer. He went to Rockley and came back into full work and stayed sound until a shoulder injury some years later.

I agree with you that the hock issue should be taken into account, as if it is causing him to load unevenly then that could be putting unnecessary strain on other areas. Have you x rayed that? That would be my first step. Find out what you are dealing with there.

I would also check how he is landing, take a video of him walking on a smooth surface from floor level to see if he is landing toe or heel first. The Rockley blog will have examples of what you are aiming for and what to look for.

 

[TPO]

Really sorry to hear this SWC, he's absolutely lovely and you deserve some fun.

If you post this in the hoof care and health section of the forum and/or read in there you'll find lots of posts about this and the majority, if not all, of the positive stories come from those that have gone barefoot.

It's not easy and you do have to remember that you are starting with "sick" feet. While they may look good they aren't simply because if they were he wouldn't have palmar foot pain...

They could have been many reasons why he went footsore without shoes before. Diet is often the main reason and grass is usually a very big factor. Also many "baby" horses get shod when they start work as they go footsore so "need" shoes to progress their work... there was a very good paper/article written about how "footsore" is actually them reaching a sort of breaking point where the (stresses of) work is reaching the breaking point for their bodies. Much in the same way ligaments and muscles need conditioning so do hoof and that is the body showing it's reached that point. Not just in youngster but in horses transitioning or coming into work this is the point people decide that shoes are "needed" to continue rather than reduce the work load. when you think about it logically nailing metal on does not/cannot cure anything, at best, as pointed out above, it can mask symoptoms.

Rockley Farm is an excellent start point for positive cases of horses returning to work and there are a handful of really good pages on Facebook (a lot more not very good ones!).

There is so much information available that it can be overwhelming. The Barefoot Horse by Lucy Nicholas and Feet First by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite are good books to get you started. Forage Plus (and it now has a link to another page of articles and features) explains about the diet and there are lots of well written pieces by Dr Kerry Ridgway.

I really didn't buy into the barefoot thing. I'd attempted it with a QH mare my mum had who was diagnosed as navicular. I knew nothing about BF and blindly followed the advice of the EP that, now I know a bit more, I know to be wrong. So I was quite happy to go to vet recommended remedial shoes. She was pts less than 9mths later... if I'd known more about BF and stuck with it who's to say.

I lost a second horse to navicular (Tanith - you might remember her). She had good quality hooves, was shod by vet recommended farrier and seen every 4-5wks by the farrier. Everything by the book. Even the day the vet pts he said she had good hoof balance and BF wouldn't be an option for me when I asked. Now I can see quite clearly that she had awful hoof balance. She'd had surgery before and had one slightly more upright foot (had surgery on that pastern previously) and a her good foot that was slightly flatter and more spread (this was riddled with navic more than the other). Yet the vets, the experts, the people I paid thousands of pounds too couldn't see something as obvious as that and couldn't see beyond shoes.

The reason people (who are barefoot) get on their "high horse" as such is because they know it works and if they'd known that then they might not have gone through what they've gone through to end up barefoot now. If that makes any sense at all!

It's rarely easy transitioning an already sick hoof/hooves but it is worth it to have a sound, comfortable horse that you can enjoy for many more years.

Really wishing you the very best of outcomes.

 

[ester]

when the vet said about supporting the heel, did they mean lifting it? The trouble with that is that the horses natural cushion/heel height will likely diminish further so you don't gain much long term.

Sounds like would be good to investigate the hock further if possible before deciding what to do.

 

[Bernster]

Very helpful thread this. It's tough though when your chosen vet, farrier etc all say shoe the horse. As if we owners don't feel bad enough already to then have to go against specialist advice. I've had shod horses all my horsey life with no issues and my new boy has shoes, however I've just made the transition for my mare and feel it's the right thing to do. Early days and there is a lot to learn and no quick fix but from what I've read it does seem like a good route. Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[[59668]]

My 6yo Connie was diagnosed with hock spavin in both hocks and also some kind of issue in his left shoulder. he was treated with Tildren and steroid injections for the spavin. Showed some improvement but still not comfortable in a school, and I didn't feel it was fair to keep pushing him - I wanted to event. I also didn't pursue diagnosing the shoulder issue.
I have turned him away for the past 3 months, and bought something else to fulfil my eventing dreams. So the Connie will retire now. If he comes hacking sound, which I think he probably is to be honest, I will try to find a loaner to hack him from my yard.
Sadly I think a lot of Connies are pushed too far too fast, and then break.

 

[Garnet]

I did talk extensively to the vet about this but she felt in his case right now he needs support under that heel to diminish any inflamed areas

Have you asked your vet if you can use hoof boots to provide this "magic" heel support?

 

[swellhillcottage]

thank you all for your input!!
Firstly the hock was x-rayed and to quote vet "osteophyte formation in the right hind tarso metatarsal joint" which is the front of the hock the upper joint there was a bony growth on the edge which needs to wear down ( I not sure if this will do naturally) and also some abnormalities in the distal tibia ( t'was a slightly different shape) my vet couldn't decide whether it was within normal parameters so the images have been sent to Jessica Kidd who is some one with more knowledge - we are awaiting her verdict before we go further - sadly I am not the bank of pony so I do hope the hock is within normal levels because I don't think operating is going to be an option financially especially as he has the front end issue also.
Re. the Heel support I think normal roll toe bar shoes with normal pads were the idea to see if we can simmer the pain down obviously we will be using anti-inflammatories (sp) - no raising of heels were mentioned.

Thank you all for your imput



This issue was only diagnosed yesterday and no decisions will be made but money is going to be the main contributing factor to any treatment I am sorry to say.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The reason people (who are barefoot) get on their "high horse" as such is because they know it works and if they'd known that then they might not have gone through what they've gone through to end up barefoot now. If that makes any sense at all!

I know what you mean, it's not really being on a high horse, rather having nearly had a horse PTS that then came sound and returned to full work after a BF rehab (which is not the same as just taking the shoes off - if only it was that simple), you want to shout from the rooftops and let everyone know that this option is a genuine one with a really good chance of having a sound, in full work horse again. So us folks that have been through it do sound a bit like a broken record, but we don't want others to have to go down the long hard road where a BF rehab is the last resort as the horse is about to be PTS.

 

[Farma]

when the vet said about supporting the heel, did they mean lifting it? The trouble with that is that the horses natural cushion/heel height will likely diminish further so you don't gain much long term.

Sounds like would be good to investigate the hock further if possible before deciding what to do.

Sorry to dispute my navicular horse was kept sound for 14 years having the heels raised absolutely no problem at all. I didn't have the option of tildren at the time of my horses diagnosis but if it was now I would definitely use it. With these navicular posts there is obviously alot of support for barefoot but this was a failed option for me and I wish I had just raised the heels sooner as she had a good quality of instant soundness for many many years after. Best of luck with whatever treatment route u decide x

 

[ycbm]

Sorry to dispute my navicular horse was kept sound for 14 years having the heels raised absolutely no problem at all. I didn't have the option of tildren at the time of my horses diagnosis but if it was now I would definitely use it. With these navicular posts there is obviously alot of support for barefoot but this was a failed option for me and I wish I had just raised the heels sooner as she had a good quality of instant soundness for many many years after. Best of luck with whatever treatment route u decide x

The thing is, you aren't disputing. Everyone agrees that some horses are resolved by remedial shoeing.

The fact is, though, that something like four times as many horses, even those already failed by remedial shoeing, are resolved by a barefoot rehab which done at home carries no significant cost.

If you would like to explain what barefoot rehab you did, I would love to discuss how and why it failed.

Can I also ask, was your horse performing for fourteen years at the same level as it was before it went lame, on all surfaces and on hard and soft ground?

 

[rara007]

How relevant is the hock pathology? In all honesty I'd look into that before the feet. Having spent the best part of 6 months walking my pony without shoes (and a few month walking with shoes before) , for him still to be lame, to then find DJD in both fetlocks, I'd recommend checking and double checking what you'll be left with if you do manage to fix the feet.

 

[Farma]

The thing is, you aren't disputing. Everyone agrees that some horses are resolved by remedial shoeing.

The fact is, though, that something like four times as many horses, even those already failed by remedial shoeing, are resolved by a barefoot rehab which done at home carries no significant cost.

If you would like to explain what barefoot rehab you did, I would love to discuss how and why it failed.

Can I also ask, was your horse performing for fourteen years at the same level as it was before it went lame, on all surfaces and on hard and soft ground?

Yes of course but as I said it was some time ago she was diagnosed 14 years before she passed and she passed some years ago now! I remember the vet and farrier and my yard manager working to get her barefoot I was so young then a teenager and didn't have the knowledge so relied on them what I do recall is many months of her being crippled lame with little improvement despite alot of effort on their part. I was then advised to put the shoes on with raised heel and she was instantly relieved I was glad to see her be able yo be a horse again and as I said she went on for 14 years she competed bd only up to novice but successfully also did low level show jumping and hacking including holidays and long distance and was fine, I did have to be careful riding down hills buy other than that she was in full work for that length of time.
I've only had one navicular horse so I don't claim to offer any expert opinion just my experience with my lovely horse x

 

[TPO]

I know what you mean, it's not really being on a high horse, rather having nearly had a horse PTS that then came sound and returned to full work after a BF rehab (which is not the same as just taking the shoes off - if only it was that simple), you want to shout from the rooftops and let everyone know that this option is a genuine one with a really good chance of having a sound, in full work horse again. So us folks that have been through it do sound a bit like a broken record, but we don't want others to have to go down the long hard road where a BF rehab is the last resort as the horse is about to be PTS.

That's more or less what I meant but clearly didn't word it very well.

I lost two to navicular. With the second (first bought with it) money wasn't an issue, nor time, but vets insisted barefoot wasn't an option and PTS so she didn't suffer was the best option. I chose that option because I didn't want her to suffer just so I could keep her and not suffer her loss.

If I'd just brought her home and Googled she would have been at Rockley before you could blink. Instead I trusted the "experts" who assured me they knew best. 5yrs so far living with that guilt...

The only silver lining, as such, is after being bullied on here by an ex-user for making that decision is it led to me finding out about this barefoit malarky properly. Now shoeing makes no sense and at a basic level is just bad science and physics.

I don't think it's a "high horse" rather that people know it works and are equally enthusiastic about it and frustrated that there is still so much resistance to the proof that it works and that shoeing causes damage.

Sorry to go off topic SWC. I hope you get good news about his hock

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm sorry that you were let down by the experts TPO. I long for the day that all Vets and Farriers understand BF rehabs, take it seriously and recommend it when appropriate.

 

[swellhillcottage]

Thank you all for your input, - I have spoken again to vet and apparently the hock x - rays are normal which means there is something else going on in that hind Vet has advised in short term to put him in bar shoes and pads to help support those crucial bits in the heel and above and to be reavaluated in 4 weeks, sadly she now is not as confident in his full recovery because of the hock result and seeing previous videos of his lameness behind - I and neither does she want him in bar shoes long term - yes it possibly is a quick fix but I think if he doesnt improve at all in these given the pathology the chances are he wont and a 5 yr old native field ornament is not ideal - IF that is the case and he doesnt improve I will hopefully find and speak to a recommended trimmer/ podiatrist in my area (West Oxfordshire) with the plan to remove his shoes and put him on the easy list for a 6/12 months - If he does improve with the bar shoes I will probably do the same transition and rest programme but only when I know his Plantar region is not so sore - I hope that all makes some sort of sense!!

 

[ester]

Just got myself confused, but I think it was that the second opinion (Jessica) thinks the hock xrays are normal. In some ways I think that is good because if he was showing arthritis there already, and having front feet issues, you probably weren't looking at very long term resolvable. It would nice if you could keep us updated OP as I do find it interesting how these cases pan out.

 

[swellhillcottage]

Just got myself confused, but I think it was that the second opinion (Jessica) thinks the hock xrays are normal. In some ways I think that is good because if he was showing arthritis there already, and having front feet issues, you probably weren't looking at very long term resolvable. It would nice if you could keep us updated OP as I do find it interesting how these cases pan out.

Yes Ester you are correct the 2nd opinion was good news re the hocks but the trouble is he is wrong elsewhere on that hind leg either high suspensory or stifle who knows nothing is evident so the idea is to fix if possible the front end and then if that done then try fixing whatever is wrong behind
Horses who would have em!

 

[ester]

Lol, at least the something else might be fixable with time, rather than degenerative.

 

[criso]

One thing I found really useful was to take regular photos of the feet to track progress. I did it when he was being shod, after trimming but before the shoe went on. Then again with the shoe I took a side, front, and sole view of each.

That way you can track progress objectively.

Good luck

 

[BethH]

My 4yr old connie cross TB had genetic KS - operated on 9yrs ago when he was 6 - it showed itself as a very short stiff back end. Bi-laterally lame at between 2/10th & 4/10ths behind depending on the day of the week and front end lame as he was sore from front loading. Took 2 years to diagnose as he was so inconsistent.

Sometimes they look lame because it transfers from elsewhere - has his back been ruled out of the equation, he tried his best but was very edgy/spooky and asking him to go downhill caused panic attacks!

Just wondering as mine was quite an unusual case considering his type & age - was very unlucky!

 

[swellhillcottage]

My 4yr old connie cross TB had genetic KS - operated on 9yrs ago when he was 6 - it showed itself as a very short stiff back end. Bi-laterally lame at between 2/10th & 4/10ths behind depending on the day of the week and front end lame as he was sore from front loading. Took 2 years to diagnose as he was so inconsistent.

Sometimes they look lame because it transfers from elsewhere - has his back been ruled out of the equation, he tried his best but was very edgy/spooky and asking him to go downhill caused panic attacks!

Just wondering as mine was quite an unusual case considering his type & age - was very unlucky!

I think I have been unlucky too Back x- rays were done 4 weeks ago and all clear.
there does seem to be a lot of ideas coming forward of hind gut issues and lameness and He is being treated for that now with Succeed and Equisure which both have made a lot of difference I think.