NEED ADVICE! LOOSING HOPE!

[Lana.H05]

I do appreciate the point being made about Spanish horses. I have a part bred Spanish. He has just about the same symptoms as OP's. When he is right you only have to breathe and he understands the command. However when the problems kick in (which I think is muscle pain) it puts a totally different complexion on it.

I suspect mine may have PSSM. He hasn't been tested but I know it occurs in Spanish horses and it fits a lot. I don't think there is a simple or cheap answer to the original post.
Poor handling causes stress of course but so does pain and ulcers are simply the knock one effect. So are hind gut ulcers.

If you treat the ulcers you may see better results but the cause will still be there unless you can find it. Muscle pain (PSSM or any other) causes stress with the knock on effect.

I can see you are trying your best and that is a lovely pic of both you and your horse and the vegetation.

If you put your hands on his hind quarters (standing at the side of him) and wobble them. Does his backside wobble or does it feel more solid like a board?

A physio,vet or chiro won't diagnose PSSM and most may not even know much about it.

As a very cheap suggestion I would consider sodium bicarb. (link below) After feeding that twice daily for a few days you may see improvement. That would give an indication as to where your problems lie.



If he was mine I would give 10000iu natural vit E and equishure (equishure is sodium bicarbonate that has been treated to reach the hind gut) and see if that could change him. Those supplements however are not cheap. I would also make sure he is kept warm at all times. In this current wet and windy weather (UK) I would make sure he is rugged, his back is kept dry and warm and also that he is kept moving ie not stabled but allowed to either wander around a yard or out 24/7 and given gentle exercise daily. That could be walking in hand, long reining or gentle ridden walking.

The above is all part of PSSM management.

From your last post you say he has been going well for a while and has only recently brought up some issues. Can you be a lot more precise? When he was going well did you have problems or was he OK for most of the time? When he started with issues what exactly happened? I am looking specifically at weather. Was he OK for example when it was warm and dry and when the wind and rain started problems started? Was he OK when the grass was dry but then problems happened when it grew and became richer.
(it may help if you keep a diary of exactly what his management is in detail each day, what the weather is like, how much grazing he had that day)

I don't think he is necessarily the horse for what you want but I do congratulate you for not selling him. I have been in your position several times and I wouldn't have sold them.





https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Sodium-Bicarbonate-BP-Powder-5kg/productinfo/SOD5/

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the helpful advice. So Kraka was 10 when we bought him. It was very early March. We viewed him a week previous and to be honest it was awful. He couldn't walk properly or trot at all and he was quite clearly in need of some love. Something drew me to him and so I decided he was the one. He arrived stressed and anxious. He looked like 3 different horses all mixed matched into one because his muscles were all in weird places. I got on and walked for a few months and then began trotting and cantering after having more of a bond. As it got hotter and there was more grass he became happier and when it got colder he seemed uncomfortable. Thats when we got him scoped and treated for ulcers. So after he was all clear he was still bolting and has put me in some very dangerous situations. But we was achieving some really good things he did a Hunter Trial and we went showjumping with friends and joined my schools equ team. Then coming into winter we were still keeping him at an extremely stressful yard with over 100 horses and stressy people. It was rubbing off on me and Kraka the amount of pressure we were feeling but progress was still happening. Fast forward to the beginning of lock down a stables on a home farm came up for livery only a 10 minute walk from my house. So moved. He is out 24/7 and is fed and hayed before riding to line his stomach. He eats Thunderbrooks chaff and soaked grass nuts. Supplements he has daily are Silent 4, Gut balancer, Corn Oil and a hormone calmer. So before all this heat wave he was doing well and during also. Ive been doing lots of group hacking that was a dream come. However there are moments like XC yesterday and also schooling him previously he just didnt want to work. A few of my friends had ridden him and he was fine but it is like something hurts again. If i try with the ulcers again because he probably had them for years before we treated him and they probably started his bolting from what a previous owner told me. And then if that doesnt change anything i will look into PSSM. But we don't have a lot of money to splash around and insurance was used up on the last lot of treatment.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I admire your wish to give him a forever home and to ask for help, have regular lessons, look at physical issues etc. So I do undertand your reluctance to sell on in case he gets passed around. But maybe another way of looking at it is to recognise that you are not an appropriate home for him either. And I mean that in the nicest possible way - you are doing everything you can for him but you just don't have the experience. You are probably too young to retrain a stressy, confused horse. Kids often ride brilliantly but very few are good trainers! You can only learn how to tain horses by training horses and the first few you train should be very very easy to get you going. Which this one isn't. You want to jump which probably does not suit him. You are not familiar with the breed and while horses are horses - this breed IS a bit different.

The market is strong right now and a sensitive PRE will be EXACTY what someone wants and that person will have far more chance of helping the horse relax, learn, enjoy life. And you can buy a horse who wants to jump and is already pretty chilled.

If you really can't sell him then I would ditch all thoughts of jumping for now, have as many lessons as you can afford on the ground and on the flat and try and find trainers who understand that you need their help in re-training a horse not just giving you riding lessons. It is totally different.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Having read your most recent post - it sounds more positive than what you had written earlier if you had several settled months and managed to work him in a variety of settings and he was calm & willing. So maybe it is an ulcer flare up and he will be ok with more treatment. I hope so. x

 

[Lana.H05]

Having read your most recent post - it sounds more positive than what you had written earlier if you had several settled months and managed to work him in a variety of settings and he was calm & willing. So maybe it is an ulcer flare up and he will be ok with more treatment. I hope so. x

Thank you. I won't probably ever sell him but if ulcers aren't the answer maybe loan him out. But he is my only horse and my entire world. I jump once a week and no bigger than 90cm. I have quite a lot of experience as my whole life I've had naughty ponies to bring on but the Spanish Breed is so different however I would rather learn and continue the incredible bond that I have with him than just send him off because I wasn't good enough. I know it sounds selfish but when you have come so far and he is so special to me.

 

[Lana.H05]

Thank you. I won't probably ever sell him but if ulcers aren't the answer maybe loan him out. But he is my only horse and my entire world. I jump once a week and no bigger than 90cm. I have quite a lot of experience as my whole life I've had naughty ponies to bring on but the Spanish Breed is so different however I would rather learn and continue the incredible bond that I have with him than just send him off because I wasn't good enough. I know it sounds selfish but when you have come so far and he is so special to me.

I will take on board however that jumping maybe isn't for him. Would he shame but I don't care as long as he is happy.

 

[paddy555]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the helpful advice. So Kraka was 10 when we bought him. It was very early March. We viewed him a week previous and to be honest it was awful. He couldn't walk properly or trot at all and he was quite clearly in need of some love. Something drew me to him and so I decided he was the one. He arrived stressed and anxious. He looked like 3 different horses all mixed matched into one because his muscles were all in weird places. I got on and walked for a few months and then began trotting and cantering after having more of a bond. As it got hotter and there was more grass he became happier and when it got colder he seemed uncomfortable. Thats when we got him scoped and treated for ulcers. So after he was all clear he was still bolting and has put me in some very dangerous situations. But we was achieving some really good things he did a Hunter Trial and we went showjumping with friends and joined my schools equ team. Then coming into winter we were still keeping him at an extremely stressful yard with over 100 horses and stressy people. It was rubbing off on me and Kraka the amount of pressure we were feeling but progress was still happening. Fast forward to the beginning of lock down a stables on a home farm came up for livery only a 10 minute walk from my house. So moved. He is out 24/7 and is fed and hayed before riding to line his stomach. He eats Thunderbrooks chaff and soaked grass nuts. Supplements he has daily are Silent 4, Gut balancer, Corn Oil and a hormone calmer. So before all this heat wave he was doing well and during also. Ive been doing lots of group hacking that was a dream come. However there are moments like XC yesterday and also schooling him previously he just didnt want to work. A few of my friends had ridden him and he was fine but it is like something hurts again. If i try with the ulcers again because he probably had them for years before we treated him and they probably started his bolting from what a previous owner told me. And then if that doesnt change anything i will look into PSSM. But we don't have a lot of money to splash around and insurance was used up on the last lot of treatment.

I think you are doing incredibly well if you are only 14. you seem to be on the right track with a lot of insight and patience.. Good luck with him.

 

[Cortez]

Thank you. I won't probably ever sell him but if ulcers aren't the answer maybe loan him out. But he is my only horse and my entire world. I jump once a week and no bigger than 90cm. I have quite a lot of experience as my whole life I've had naughty ponies to bring on but the Spanish Breed is so different however I would rather learn and continue the incredible bond that I have with him than just send him off because I wasn't good enough. I know it sounds selfish but when you have come so far and he is so special to me.

He may be "special" to you, but he deserves to have the best possible life, and being your entire world doesn't sound like it's much fun for him. I admire your commitment to learning, but if you don't have the experience or money to be able to help him, well, that is being selfish.

 

[shortstuff99]

Is he a pure ANCCE registered PRE? I believe and @Cortez might remember more then me, that horses with PSSM are not allowed into the stud book and are genetically tested for it? If he is by registered parents then it might be a lower chance then if he is non-registered or a part-bred.

 

[Lana.H05]

He may be "special" to you, but he deserves to have the best possible life, and being your entire world doesn't sound like it's much fun for him. I admire your commitment to learning, but if you don't have the experience or money to be able to help him, well, that is being selfish.

Sorry and thank you for your advice

 

[Lana.H05]

Is he a pure ANCCE registered PRE? I believe and @Cortez might remember more then me, that horses with PSSM are not allowed into the stud book and are genetically tested for it? If he is by registered parents then it might be a lower chance then if he is non-registered or a part-bred.

He is a registered PRE. His parents were also registered.

 

[Lana.H05]

I think you are doing incredibly well if you are only 14. you seem to be on the right track with a lot of insight and patience.. Good luck with him.

Thank you hopefully this is something I can sort and I am so glad I now know about PSSM and will educate myself more.

 

[Cortez]

Thank you hopefully this is something I can sort and I am so glad I now know about PSSM and will educate myself more.

Horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered in the ANCCE studbook, so it will be rare in the breed.

 

[TPO]

I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order.

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E.

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.

 

[shortstuff99]

Horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered in the ANCCE studbook, so it will be rare in the breed.

I thought that was the case!

 

[Ambers Echo]

TPO, I agree I think OP is doing amazingly well and is clearly a thoughtful and committed owner. Far more so than many adults! I sometimes think people would like to sell on a difficult horse but feel that persevering and sticking with the 'forever home' ideal is the right thing to do. Which is where my post was coming from in suggesting a different perspective on that. I think 'right' homes are more important than 'forever' homes. But subsequent posts have made it clear that she has come on a long way and also just how much the horse means to her. So I wish you all the luck, OP. Hope it all works out well for you both.

 

[paddy555]

Horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered in the ANCCE studbook, so it will be rare in the breed.

how have they been tested for PSSM2? ie which test

 

[D66]

Just a thought but as your horse was going well before lockdown and has since had reduced work he may have changed shape enough to need the saddle refitting.

 

[Fellewell]

We stopped for lunch at a Spanish finca years ago. It was also a stud and beyond the terrace there was a mixed ability lesson taking place with about half a dozen PREs. It was clear that these beautiful horses were the most important beings in the arena, the instructor was taking no prisoners. He was definitely a 'pee or get off the pot' type of trainer and his pupils weren't allowed even the smallest mistakes.
We got talking to a man nearby who seemed to be part of the team. I noted that all the horses there were in sand paddocks with ad-lib hay/alfalfa and I commented that people seem to have problems with PREs in the uk and maybe it was the diet/rich grazing. He shook his head sadly and said 'creo que no'. I didn't pursue the subject because my Spanish is limited and I might have been nodding along enthusiastically while he was saying we were a bunch of electric-bummed losers!
H&H have put up their top 9 dressage vids. Fuego is there (naturalmente!) you only have to note his reaction at the end when he thinks Dad has stopped paying attention. They are such sensitive souls. Es una lastima.

 

[paddy555]

I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order.

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E.

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.

I totally agree. I thought Cortez post 37 was incredibly mean. Everyone has to start somewhere and this young lady seems to be ahead of her years. If people cannot come on here and ask for advice, whatever age they are, how are they ever going to learn and improve?

Of course all horses deserve to have the best possible lives. If we start on that basis, from some of the posts on here in the past, we would be removing half of the horses from their owners.

 

[Cortez]

I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order.

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E.

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.

TPO, as I suspect this post is aimed at me may I answer some of your points? Spanish horses are not the "special of the day", they are horses which are routinely coming up as "problem horses" with depressing regularity; I nearly always have one or more in as "rescues" from kind hearted, bedazzled, over-horsed owners who cannot handle them - some don't make it because their behavioral problems are so severe and the kindest thing is to put them down. There are few people in the UK who really know how to train these horses: they are different, and require knowledge of the breed and a very different training approach to that endemic here. Some do OK, some fall apart and those are the ones that are in need of specialist help.

14 year old me would have got a clip around the ear if I didn't keep the welfare of my horse at the forefront of my mind at all times (I think the OP is trying to do her best, BTW), if I couldn't ride or take care of the horse properly it would be removed forthwith.

OP, you sound like a nice, concerned person who wants to help your horse, but the reality is that having a "bond", or insisting that you'll never sell because you're not good enough to ride him isn't going to do the trick for the horse.

how have they been tested for PSSM2? ie which test

I have no idea, you'll have to ask the licensing authority.

 

[shortstuff99]

how have they been tested for PSSM2? ie which test

The genetic test for PSSM2 from what I've researched is a little bit sketchy. A lot of the horses that were positive from muscle biopsies etc did not have the PSSM2 genes that had been identified, unlike PSSM1. Rather then a test any horse that was to show symptoms would be removed from the studbook. When foals are registered they have to have bloods taken for their DNA profile.

 

[paddy555]

When foals are registered they have to have bloods taken for their DNA profile.

but that doesn't test for PSSM2 does it?

 

[shortstuff99]

but that doesn't test for PSSM2 does it?

Testing for PSSM2 (genetically) is not a definitive test at all for PSSM2 so I wouldn't massively rely on it full stop.

 

[Cortez]

I totally agree. I thought Cortez post 37 was incredibly mean. Everyone has to start somewhere and this young lady seems to be ahead of her years. If people cannot come on here and ask for advice, whatever age they are, how are they ever going to learn and improve?

Of course all horses deserve to have the best possible lives. If we start on that basis, from some of the posts on here in the past, we would be removing half of the horses from their owners.

Ah you see, I don't subscribe to the theory that one has to be nice to children just because they are young, especially not when they are likely to get (or cause) hurt. I wasn't being mean, just speaking from long years of experience in dealing with precisely this situation. Telling someone they are doing a great job when plainly it isn't working is not helpful at best and dishonest at worst.

 

[paddy555]

Testing for PSSM2 (genetically) is not a definitive test at all for PSSM2 so I wouldn't massively rely on it full stop.

so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing.

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.

 

[shortstuff99]

so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing.

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.

If they end up diagnosed, then they wouldn't be allowed to be bred anymore (and any youngstock wouldn't be allowed to be registered).

 

[Cortez]

so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing.

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.

Goodness, you do seem to be concerned about this: why don't you contact the ANCCE and ask them?

 

[paddy555]

Ah you see, I don't subscribe to the theory that one has to be nice to children just because they are young, especially not when they are likely to get (or cause) hurt. I wasn't being mean, just speaking from long years of experience in dealing with precisely this situation. Telling someone they are doing a great job when plainly it isn't working is not helpful at best and dishonest at worst.

ah, I believe in encouraging children especially if they are trying to work out how to solve a problem. I see so many thrashing around with their equines, hard hands, whips at the ready who are not willing to look any further. So when one comes along, who is trying to solve their horse's problem, I feel helping them (as I would do with an adult) is the most beneficial for the horse.

In this case of course we have a horse that seems to have come from his previous home with problems. Now we have someone who is trying to find out how to help him. Alternatively she could just sell the horse on and get a better jumping machine. The horse could then go onto his next home, take his problems with it and would be no better for it. Perhaps another home after that as he gets passed along as a problem horse.

 

[paddy555]

If they end up diagnosed, then they wouldn't be allowed to be bred anymore (and any youngstock wouldn't be allowed to be registered).

true but by that stage the parents could already have produced many youngsters.

 

[paddy555]

Goodness, you do seem to be concerned about this: why don't you contact the ANCCE and ask them?

I was merely commenting on your original remark which appears to have no accuracy.