Needing some thoughts on youngster

rhino said:
It could also be that the management just doesn’t suit him right now, some horses do much better in herds, with more space and more going on. Others seem to prefer a quieter life with perhaps one or two other settled horses.

I find the younger they are, the more they benefit from herd turnout. Their energy is taken up by playing, exploring and interacting with others and they are consistently being reminded of expectations when they step out of line with the older ones. They get used to comings and goings.
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This is my thought too. I can't offer him the set up he needs and I do think it contributes to the problem.

I'm just trying to put everything into consideration so I know my decision is the right thing.
 
GrassChop said:
Just so I know for my own peace of mind, would there be any other way I could stop him when he spins and tanks off? One rein does nothing and it's so quick, the bit doesn't really kick in. It's just a full cheek snaffle.
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When he spins rather than pulling against it can you try and pull him all the way round?

ETA - just thinking that as he spins he'll set his neck one way so it will be easier to get him round the direction of travel rather than fighting against it. Try to bring him all the way round in a tight circle and then really get behind him just as he's facing the right way. It might shock him enough to break the cycle. A bit of a 'oh sh#t mum means business' moment.
 
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GrassChop said:
This is my thought too. I can't offer him the set up he needs and I do think it contributes to the problem.

I'm just trying to put everything into consideration so I know my decision is the right thing.
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Sometimes, we can overthink decisions, when all we really need to do to make the "right" decision is go with our gut instinct xx

(there is no "right" decision or "wrong" decision - whatever you choose to do will be ok)
 
GrassChop said:
Just so I know for my own peace of mind, would there be any other way I could stop him when he spins and tanks off? One rein does nothing and it's so quick, the bit doesn't really kick in. It's just a full cheek snaffle.
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I can only tell you what works for mine though he's a bit different in he tends to do it when he see's something he's not keen on going past rather than just napping for home. The big thing I realised was I was 'leaving the back door open' for him to exit stage left at speed. When I felt him tense up at something, I'd also tense up and try to hold him as we went past it, what I was actually doing was making the most inviting option for him to go back the way we'd come. Instead now I ride him with wide low hands and a lot of leg whenever he's being hesitant or nappy about going past something, so I'm putting him between my leg and hand and saying the only option is forward. I don't really care if he shoots off forward or goes sideways past, but he has to go forward. Keeping my hands wide and low also means I can 'catch' the spin if he tries, and I'm quite firm about that. Even if all he does is argue for a minute about trying to spin and end up facing back the way we came that's fine, I'll praise him and give him a minute to relax and evaluate the situation then ask him to go forward again.

The biggest thing was just being very insistent that going back the way we'd come or running away from things he didn't like was never an option, I'd ask him to stand and look at something he was spooking at and reward him for standing calmly, then once his adrenaline had dropped I'd ask him again to walk past. And being very relaxed in myself making the whole thing a 'non event' so my tension didn't rise with his tension, always keeping the front door 'open' with a relaxed rein rather than tensing up and trying to hold him too much and rewarding him when he did go forward again.
 
GrassChop said:
Just so I know for my own peace of mind, would there be any other way I could stop him when he spins and tanks off? One rein does nothing and it's so quick, the bit doesn't really kick in. It's just a full cheek snaffle.
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Based on my NF experience, on the ground… you’re doomed until you establish enough trust and boundaries in hand. They should relax because you are there and they respect you. I like the techniques in ‘Dancing with Horses’ by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling for teaching ground manners/respect - quiet, easy, always work, don’t need fancy equipment or facilities.

On board you either need to be strong yourself and quick to catch it, or a little leverage completely changes the game. I switch from snaffle to universal and then back again when they grow up. I went hacking once with little NF in a snaffle when she was rising 5. Forgot to change it. All 12.3hh of her took a hold and WENT. Me…pulls on snaffle. Nothing. Pulls harder. Nothing. Both hands on the left rein and PULL. Stopped pony with head in my knee. Got off. Walked home. Next day - universal. Happy in control hack. Lesson learned!
 
dorsetladette said:
When he spins rather than pulling against it can you try and pull him all the way round?

ETA - just thinking that as he spins he'll set his neck one way so it will be easier to get him round the direction of travel rather than fighting against it. Try to bring him all the way round in a tight circle and then really get behind him just as he's facing the right way. It might shock him enough to break the cycle. A bit of a 'oh sh#t mum means business' moment.
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I can't, I've tried, unfortunately.
 
GC, I have been in a similar position to you, a dearly beloved horse raised from weanling to 5yo, and whilst we had no issues on the ground, ridden she was foot perfect for everyone else, nothing but compliments and praise from them all, but started to play up for me. It just got worse and worse, and I called it a day when she bucked and then tanked off with me at speed across a stony carpark and through onto the yard, because a pony in a nearby paddock moved. I was convinced she wasn't going to stop and I remember looking at the sharp rocks on the ground and thinking that I was about to get seriously injured.
It broke my heart as she was lovely in all other aspects and I loved her to bits, but I just knew that we were no longer compatible and that I was never going to get on her again, because I just didn't have the skills, physical strength or courage to handle that kind of situation.

I sold her with full disclosure, and have had the pleasure of watching her grow and develop over these years into a wonderful all rounder for her owner. And I have never once regretted my decision, because I knew she would never have grown into that wonderful all rounder with me.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Need more info?
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13.2
5 in June
New Forest Gelding
Walk, trot and cantering under saddle with pro rider out hacking alone
Has been schooled but not alot, mostly just hacked
Has seen cars, cyclists and all free roaming forest animals (includes pigs and sheep stampedes) and is unfazed so pretty bombproof, confident and independent.
Nicely forward, not a kick along. Needs confident rider with experience of youngsters and foresters as can have typical stubbornness.
 
I bought a 7yo 14hh NF gelding in February. Green out hacking but would go alone, well schooled on the flat but hadn’t jumped much, few quirks on the ground (mostly mannerly but would climb on top of you when scared and had been known to rear if pushed). No health issues, been backed 9 months or so. £1750. Think they had him up for £2.5k to start with but no one wanted the quirks. Respects fencing, ran on the forest until 6yo so used to all that - but tractors doing things in fields have been a surprise to him.

Bought a 6yo 12.2hh NF last summer for £500 who was amazing under saddle (jumps over 1m with ease while staying sane) but difficult on the ground (bit, squashed you). She was advertised for £2k but again no one wanted her.

I have an angelic 12.2hh who is probably worth only around a grand because she is newly backed - though safe and sweet tempered. Perfect on the ground, in the field, good out hacking solo and in company. Respects fencing and people and is a complete poppet. We’re schooling her on because she’ll need a summer under saddle to have a chance of finding a nice home.

If any of that helps.
 
Chief is a 4 yo 13.1 forest bred strawberry roan by Portmore Thundercloud x Limekiln Eternal Heaven. Paid £3,000 as he had been bought for me by my instructor and NF expert, and she kept and worked with him until we were both sure he was the right pony for me. Beautiful ground manners and as traffic proof as they come. Currently away being broken to harness and would be a complete doddle to back if I wanted to ride again.
 
New Forests Rock said:
Chief is a 4 yo 13.1 forest bred strawberry roan by Portmore Thundercloud x Limekiln Eternal Heaven. Paid £3,000 as he had been bought for me by my instructor and NF expert, and she kept and worked with him until we were both sure he was the right pony for me. Beautiful ground manners and as traffic proof as they come. Currently away being broken to harness and would be a complete doddle to back if I wanted to ride again.
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How much did the instructor pay for him out of interest??.vv obsessed with port more thundercloud😍😍😍😍
 
GrassChop said:
Just off the forest by an approved forest stallion! Nothing special unfortunately!
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I would say that's far too cheap & more can depend on his confirmation & way of going than his breeding, I assume he's full registered so could be shown?
If he's nicely put together, forward off your leg, behaving for a professional who could show him to viewers, more like circa £4000
 
bubsqueaks said:
I would say that's far too cheap & more can depend on his confirmation & way of going than his breeding, I assume he's full registered so could be shown?
If he's nicely put together, forward off your leg, behaving for a professional who could show him to viewers, more like circa £4000
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Mmm - a friend was looking at NFs a year or two ago and those prices seem very low for something that has had a good start, is registered, and apparently behaves nicely for everyone except his owner (sorry OP). I would've gone for a £2K+ as well. Particularly as he's a decent size for an adult.

OP can you look at adverts for NFs currently for sale? That should give you a feel for the market. It also depends exactly where in the country you are - presumably near the NF itself? That might drop his price a bit as there's more supply down there. We're in N Yorks so NFs are harder to find.
 
GrassChop said:
Ugh, I really don't want him to go. :(
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You don't have to sell him just because the hive mind thinks it's best.

If you didn't feel any sort of relief when you "decided" to sell, I think you might regret it. I'm going to bang my equine behaviourist drum again and suggest you get someone out less focused on results and more focused on what your pony is feeling. And you as well. You have very little to lose at this point from taking an alternative approach.
 
GrassChop said:
Ugh, I really don't want him to go. :(
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Mum gave me a fair piece of advice for making tough decisions - which option makes you cry less?

The 'logical' decision isn't always the right one. I second @smolmaus. If you're not ready to close this chapter, take a look at some alternative options 🫂
 
Widgeon said:
Mmm - a friend was looking at NFs a year or two ago and those prices seem very low for something that has had a good start, is registered, and apparently behaves nicely for everyone except his owner (sorry OP). I would've gone for a £2K+ as well. Particularly as he's a decent size for an adult.

OP can you look at adverts for NFs currently for sale? That should give you a feel for the market. It also depends exactly where in the country you are - presumably near the NF itself? That might drop his price a bit as there's more supply down there. We're in N Yorks so NFs are harder to find.
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It’s going to completely depend on how he behaves for a new rider I suspect!

It’s all very well for a pro to get on a pony that behaves, but your average joe bloggs is going to need to be able to ride too.

There is going to have to be some thought/balance between financial input to school/sell for more versus what he is with a little ? over temprement/rideability/greeness

(In addition to how correct he is for the showing market, if applicable)
 
You have a pony who knows he can pull out of a human’s hands and run home - and that he can do that under saddle too. Who knows if he runs at you in the field that you will run away. Who knows that he can run through electric fencing. He will never forget those things.

He doesn’t do them for the pro, no, because they are a competent strong adult. A pro isn’t going to want to buy a 13.2hh NF unless at trade prices as a project though. 13.2hh is child sized but he is not safe for even the most competent child right now. So not easy to sell - he is a project.

What he is not worth in that sale, is the same as an unspoilt pony who has learned none of that. It takes on average two years to train a pony out of bad habits reliably. Six weeks to back an unspoilt, nicely handed youngster. Three months to take a feral pony off the forest and get them handled and backed.

I would pay £3000 for a well bred, well handled unbacked NF. I paid approximately half that for a ridden, mostly safe in competent hands pony with self confidence issues. I saw plenty of unbacked feral NF ponies for £1000 or thereabouts this spring. Backed and going well without issues people are asking up to £5k.

Pick a price, advertise him. Too high and he won’t get any ‘bites’, you can always adjust. Or don’t and commit to spending out for the schooling. If you have the money, you can absolutely pay someone else to bring him up and wait. He will come good in the right hands.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
How much did the instructor pay for him out of interest??.vv obsessed with port more thundercloud😍😍😍😍
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@FieldOrnaments Instructor paid just £1,000 for him, and had a PSSM1 test thrown in as part of the sale. However it was via the great Commoning network that exists (they all buy ponies off each other all of the time) and I was fully aware that she had bought him to sell on. (She is a longstanding friend of some 35 years as well as my instructor and go to NF person)

Delighted you are interested in the lovely Portmore Thundercloud and his offspring. So far 🙏 🤞Chief has been everything (and more) that I could have possibly wanted. Kind, calm, soaks up everything he is taught and just gets on with life. Happy to post pics if you would like?
 
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GrassChop said:
I've had my boy from 6 months old and he is 5 in a couple of months. It's the first time I've had a horse from that age and completely started from scratch. He was straight off the forest so everything he knows up to now I have done myself which has all been completely new to me.

It hasn't been an easy journey and it has been a complete rollercoaster from being proud of him to honestly disliking him altogether. He's a very independent boy and brave. He's also always been extremely destructive though this has eased up slightly. I've had plenty of issues of him being bolshy and a total *ss, I hear this is typical boy behaviour and to be honest, I am more of a female animal person in general so this doesn't help. There has also been several occasions where he has just scared me because he has become too much to handle, gets too strong and forgets his boundaries. If I tell myself honestly, I have had too many occasions where I don't want anything to do with him because of his behaviour and that can't be normal. Obviously I have pushed through this and we have had lots of good experiences too. I have had all sorts of antics with my mare but never ever once considered not having her anymore, she could do anything and I'd still love her. For some reason, he has the ability to make me want nothing to do with him after he's been a complete idiot and I know in my heart that can't be right but I don't want to give up.

I've been slowly progressing into ridden work, I backed him in terms of taking a rider and doing short bouts of ridden work in walk and plan to get someone in to continue putting him through his paces because I'm no where near experienced enough to do that or to have even gotten this far but here we are.

I had my longest ridden hack on him recently, only about 20 minutes in walk down the lane and back and he was honestly brilliant, loved him to bits after that for being so good. However, today was completely different, just lost his head through excitement so I got off to lead and it was just hell for me, I lost my nerve because again, he forgot his boundaries and I was scared of getting hurt. Straight away, one bad experience and I regret spending all that money recently on getting him a decent saddle fitted and debating selling him again (this really isn't normal to feel this way is it?).

He is also showing a slight stubborn streak where he's not happy when I'm asking him to get on and do something, i.e. ride past the gate or walk on if he wants to stop and say hello to the horses so I don't want to end up losing confidence if he does something, I'd rather someone who knows what they're doing to train him through this.

I also have a potential issue that he has a learnt behaviour from my mare of panic reacting and this is one of the scariest bits for me because it puts me in a risky situation. She's not a nice companion and I have mentioned in a thread before that I have had to split them with an electric fence because I'd been mowed down twice by his panic running from a flick of her ears and I've been in the way. He's also got himself in situations before jumping through electric fences because he doesn't think before running from her so this was the safest option and also dietary requirements played a big part too. I'm concerned that this is now a behaviour with other things that scare him. He blindly panics and I know it's not something I can sort without help and I lose my nerve when he starts doing this because he's extremely strong and I don't want to get myself crushed, it's only been sheer luck of dodging it other than the other times. Will help even change this now?

The thing is, I've struggled to bond with him from the start. I've had more bad experiences than good that weigh on me more. I've tried so hard to push through and build my relationship with him but he doesn't make it easy. Is it possible for it to take 5 years and ongoing to know if a horse is right for you? I hate the thought of moving him on but I feel like I need to seriously consider it now before it is too late but I am stubborn and I also don't want to regret anything. Should I make the decision now or get him ridden away and then decide? Or is the ridden aspect not the issue, is it his personality that just doesn't click with me? Will he change as he grows up and works more? Will I bond with him more when he is riding out nicely and not losing his head when things get exciting? Or should I have already clicked with him by now?

I really need the hive mind of HHO to help me here. I'm really struggling with what to do.
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I'm afraid re reading this the hive mind tells me you are going to get seriously hurt if you carry on,

he needs someone with sufficient confidence when he gets nervous and upset to tell him it is all OK, I've done this lots of times before, you are going to be quite safe with me as your confident leader.
then he needs someone when he misbehaves (tries it on) to say to him "belt up and get on with the job" don't even think of spinning (or whatever) I am already a couple of steps ahead of you there.

he also needs someone who he will respect when he is on the ground so it won't occur to him to try and act the bully.

he is almost 5, year 5 and year 6 can often be difficult.

I think that this, sadly, isn't the horse for you. For me to do anything with this sort of horse I would start right back at the beginning in hand and around the yard, making sure that every step is in place. Unfortunately for anyone that means a work project and project price.
If you sell I think you will have to be very careful letting a buyer ride him. Make sure they have the skills. A novice rider could come very unstuck and get hurt and I'm sure some will overestimate their experience especially if they see a "cheaper" horse. Presumably he is insured iro this risk.

I agree with Maya's recent comments and advice. Please don't get hurt.
 
Thanks all.

He was up for £2.5 at the start of the week but got no enquiries so I changed it to £2k and have had 3 enquiries but I'm being completely transparent with what has been happening. I wouldn't entertain anyone that I feel isn't experienced and confident. I will still be having the pro out in the meantime so I'll still be spending out on him to keep him going because I can't just leave him sat doing nothing can I?

Prices are all over the place so it's really hard to come up with a figure. Some lightly handled 2yos are going up for £3k, some that have just been started under saddle are £5k and under 2yo are around £1000/£1500 but then you do get the odd one that is much less or a lot more. There doesn't seem to be much of an average price.

I was always so aware of not over handling him when he was much younger and I really did just do basics, I never smothered him, I always reinstated boundaries and left him to be a horse for the most part.

I backed him on my own because he was just so good, long reined him all around the forest, passed so many things without issues, led him down the road and rode him back etc. I genuinely don't know where we went wrong, the spinning came out of nowhere. After the first time he did it, he has tried it with me ever since even though I didn't let him get away with it either, I did pull him up the first time and we did turn back round to go the way we were heading. The second time he did it under saddle, he got pulled up then too, despite being aggy from being made to stand when he wanted to gallop back to the yard. The three times most recently long reining which was all in the same session, I pulled him up the first time and we turned back round and carried on but I couldn't pull him up the second 2 times as he was too fast with me being on foot and pulled the reins out of my hands so after going back to get him once, I decided to call it a day when he did it again and not mess it up even more. I really did try to get him going and not to do it, I really bloody tried. I was telling him to get on, talking loudly and firmly. There is no warning when it happens, we're walking forwards and then we're not so it's not like we have a protest beforehand that I can manage and push through and he's not scared or spooking at anything. I wasn't nervous so he wasn't feeding off me. Overall, he's done it twice under saddle and 3 times long reining but none with the trainer. He only got away with it twice out of all of those times and that was long reining.

I don't want to get hurt and a part of me knows that all of this just isn't worth it. Logically, I don't need a second right now and I don't need the stress, upset and anxiety that is coming with all of it. But my heart loves him and hates that it's come to this too.
 
I would send him to a pro yard to sell and let them decide on the price and take a percentage.
There is no rule you can't keep him as a pet though.
 
Gloi said:
I would send him to a pro yard to sell and let them decide on the price and take a percentage.
There is no rule you can't keep him as a pet though.
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I could but I just don't think it would be fair on him to be a pet. He enjoys doing stuff and if I can't even currently take him out in hand, what's the point? I don't want him to be cooped up all his life as much as I'd love him to stay.
 
GrassChop said:
Thanks all.

He was up for £2.5 at the start of the week but got no enquiries so I changed it to £2k and have had 3 enquiries but I'm being completely transparent with what has been happening. I wouldn't entertain anyone that I feel isn't experienced and confident. I will still be having the pro out in the meantime so I'll still be spending out on him to keep him going because I can't just leave him sat doing nothing can I?

Prices are all over the place so it's really hard to come up with a figure. Some lightly handled 2yos are going up for £3k, some that have just been started under saddle are £5k and under 2yo are around £1000/£1500 but then you do get the odd one that is much less or a lot more. There doesn't seem to be much of an average price.

I was always so aware of not over handling him when he was much younger and I really did just do basics, I never smothered him, I always reinstated boundaries and left him to be a horse for the most part.

I backed him on my own because he was just so good, long reined him all around the forest, passed so many things without issues, led him down the road and rode him back etc. I genuinely don't know where we went wrong, the spinning came out of nowhere. After the first time he did it, he has tried it with me ever since even though I didn't let him get away with it either, I did pull him up the first time and we did turn back round to go the way we were heading. The second time he did it under saddle, he got pulled up then too, despite being aggy from being made to stand when he wanted to gallop back to the yard. The three times most recently long reining which was all in the same session, I pulled him up the first time and we turned back round and carried on but I couldn't pull him up the second 2 times as he was too fast with me being on foot and pulled the reins out of my hands so after going back to get him once, I decided to call it a day when he did it again and not mess it up even more. I really did try to get him going and not to do it, I really bloody tried. I was telling him to get on, talking loudly and firmly. There is no warning when it happens, we're walking forwards and then we're not so it's not like we have a protest beforehand that I can manage and push through and he's not scared or spooking at anything. I wasn't nervous so he wasn't feeding off me. Overall, he's done it twice under saddle and 3 times long reining but none with the trainer. He only got away with it twice out of all of those times and that was long reining.

I don't want to get hurt and a part of me knows that all of this just isn't worth it. Logically, I don't need a second right now and I don't need the stress, upset and anxiety that is coming with all of it. But my heart loves him and hates that it's come to this too.
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I'm really sorry it's come to this for you and hope you can come to terms with it. You didn't mess it up or go wrong. I think you simply got to the stage with a "little boy horse" who reached the age of asking "what if I won't" They can be very quick at it.
GrassChop said:
I could but I just don't think it would be fair on him to be a pet. He enjoys doing stuff and if I can't even currently take him out in hand, what's the point? I don't want him to be cooped up all his life as much as I'd love him to stay.
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I think you are very right there. There is also the question of weight. I remember Bert (SO1) and the problems in keeping weight off a native.
 
I dont think it's fair to either of you GC to keep telling yourself he wasn't scared or spooking at something. There's very few other reasons for a horse to turn tail and run. If he isn't giving you any more subtle signs that he is getting over threshold that's one thing, but it doesn't do anyone any favours to pretend he's just doing it for a giggle.
 
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