Negotiating on price during trial - WWYD?

[FestiveFuzz]

Hmmmm .... Call me cynical but I'm always ultra cautious of a horse that's " just been in a field" for whatever apparent reason. As for the OP having had a horse"free of charge" I cant actually see this as she has obviously footed the bill for lots of things without turning a hair. It would seem 6 months is a long trial period- think I'd be wondering why it was allowed to be so long.
Personally alarm bells would be ringing for me and I would be asking for details of the horses veterinary history before spending any more money.
Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but I do think that OP has done her best for this horse and clearly has his best interests at heart.

Thanks harrysmum. I am exactly the same, which is why I thought a 6 month trial/loan was adequate as I felt any issues would appear during this time. Like I've said all along I am more than happy to foot the costs for him, even when it came to the saddle and only questioned whether I should ask for a portion of the physio costs as they offered to pay for the new saddle and apologised for not buying him a suitable replacement saddle at the time. Of course it goes without saying that I will continue to pay his physio costs either way as I hate the idea of him being in pain.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Hmmmm .... Call me cynical but I'm always ultra cautious of a horse that's " just been in a field" for whatever apparent reason. As for the OP having had a horse"free of charge" I cant actually see this as she has obviously footed the bill for lots of things without turning a hair. It would seem 6 months is a long trial period- think I'd be wondering why it was allowed to be so long.
Personally alarm bells would be ringing for me and I would be asking for details of the horses veterinary history before spending any more money.
Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but I do think that OP has done her best for this horse and clearly has his best interests at heart.

I'd take the opposite view. Sellers don't usually give a lengthy trial period if they have something to hide.

The OP has had the luxury of getting to know the horse and any problems that might arise without commiting herself to purchase.

From what has been written, the owners have been very fair and the OP is genuinely wanting to buy him and do her best for him.
Lucky horse.

 

[Spring Feather]

I'd take the opposite view. Sellers don't usually give a lengthy trial period if they have something to hide.

Me too. It's not usual to allow such a long trial period and if there was something wrong with the horse then the seller would have been pushing for as short a trial period as possible I'd have thought.

 

[lastchancer]

Sounds like you really like this horse, why not make your best offer - and then you will own him outright. Or if the owner decides it's not enough they can fetch him back and start again. Buying or selling, a loan of three months and then entering negotiations would drive me up the wall.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I'd take the opposite view. Sellers don't usually give a lengthy trial period if they have something to hide.

The OP has had the luxury of getting to know the horse and any problems that might arise without commiting herself to purchase.

From what has been written, the owners have been very fair and the OP is genuinely wanting to buy him and do her best for him.
Lucky horse.

Tbh this was what got me through when my instructor suggested he might have KS as I figured the seller must be genuine to allow such a long trial period and that they wouldn't willingly mislead me.

I adore the horse and even with what I know now I would still take him on, being completely honest even if the back issues were more than a muscular issue I'd still be inclined to keep him (but hopefully that's not something I'll have to think about).

The sellers have been nothing but supportive throughout the entire trial and I don't for one second think they have gone out of their way to lie to me. I speak with them every week and even once I've bought him I intend to stay in touch. Which is why it was so important for me to ask what others would do on here before I asked for a portion of his physio fees to be taken from the final sale price as I didn't want to offend them or make them think I wasn't serious or no longer want him as that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Sounds like you really like this horse, why not make your best offer - and then you will own him outright. Or if the owner decides it's not enough they can fetch him back and start again. Buying or selling, a loan of three months and then entering negotiations would drive me up the wall.

I honestly do and actually really regret posting this thread now as I just feel like a terrible buyer/owner. It's funny you should say make my best offer as that's exactly what I have done. Fingers crossed this gets sorted soon.

 

[Spring Feather]

I've just re-read all your replies to this thread GG and I have to say; each time you reply there seems to be a different story from the last reply; there are a lot of inconsistencies. I'm confused now so will bow out.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I've just re-read all your replies to this thread GG and I have to say; each time you reply there seems to be a different story from the last reply; there are a lot of inconsistencies. I'm confused now so will bow out.

Really? How so?

 

[montanna]

This is why I would never let a horse go out on trial.

 

[dogatemysalad]

I honestly do and actually really regret posting this thread now as I just feel like a terrible buyer/owner. It's funny you should say make my best offer as that's exactly what I have done. Fingers crossed this gets sorted soon.

Don't worry, as your story unfolded it became obvious that both you and the sellers are doing your best for the horse.

 

[martlin]

I will answer your question... I think, anyway
If you want to take the physio treatment into account, do so, but don't use it as a justification to the seller - just make an offer. If you start listing the reasons for that offer, you are running a risk of sounding a bit petty and being, well, offensive about the horse without meaning to. So just say ''would you accept X?'' and let the seller make their decision.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Don't worry, as your story unfolded it became obvious that both you and the sellers are doing your best for the horse.

Thanks Sorry if I was a bit defensive initially, I just wasn't expecting the reaction I got to what I thought was a simple yes or no thread.

 

[3Beasties]

I will answer your question... I think, anyway
If you want to take the physio treatment into account, do so, but don't use it as a justification to the seller - just make an offer. If you start listing the reasons for that offer, you are running a risk of sounding a bit petty and being, well, offensive about the horse without meaning to. So just say ''would you accept X?'' and let the seller make their decision.

This. Make an offer now so you own the horse outright. As it stands you and the owner are both in a vulnerable position, they could take the horse back leaving you horseless and out of pocket or from their point of view the horse could get injured and you decided you no longer want it and send it back to them.

The longer it goes on for the more 'risk' I think there is for both parties.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

This. Make an offer now so you own the horse outright. As it stands you and the owner are both in a vulnerable position, they could take the horse back leaving you horseless and out of pocket or from their point of view the horse could get injured and you decided you no longer want it and send it back to them.

The longer it goes on for the more 'risk' I think there is for both parties.

Thanks. I can say for certainty I will never lwvtb again, not because it's been a terrible experience but more because even with a contract there are so many grey areas. I'm currently waiting to hear back from them with regard to my offer so fingers crossed he'll be mine soon

 

[Mithras]

Well if it isn't covered by the existing contract, its just a matter of negotiation. In essence, what you are trying to get them to agree to is that the horse is worth less than it was at the beginning, due to your management (which includes riding it in a damaged saddle - any horse owner or rider should notice this). So for you to say that the horse was worth almost nothing at the beginning due to being out of work is analogous - as there were no "issues" and it was essentially a blank canvas.

I really cannot abide trial periods of this length. You wouldn't ask for it when buying a house or a car! They seem to be a minefield for things going wrong.

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

what a complicated situation it's become! Fingers crossed you get what you want OP x

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Well if it isn't covered by the existing contract, its just a matter of negotiation. In essence, what you are trying to get them to agree to is that the horse is worth less than it was at the beginning, due to your management (which includes riding it in a damaged saddle - any horse owner or rider should notice this). So for you to say that the horse was worth almost nothing at the beginning due to being out of work is analogous - as there were no "issues" and it was essentially a blank canvas.

I really cannot abide trial periods of this length. You wouldn't ask for it when buying a house or a car! They seem to be a minefield for things going wrong.

Not once have I suggested the horse is worth "almost nothing". As for your comments regarding the saddle, that would suggest the original owner, the seller, my instructor and my YO are all terrible owners and riders, it even took our saddler a bit of time to ascertain exactly what the issue was and this was someone who came highly recommended.

As for the trial period, I've already explained my reasons behind this, although I don't really think buying a house or car is comparable to buying a living, breathing being.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

what a complicated situation it's become! Fingers crossed you get what you want OP x

Thanks hun! It's definitely been a learning curve.

 

[Spring Feather]

Really? How so?

Just that I'm not clear on whether you want them to pay for half of the new saddle but then I thought you said they'd offered to take off the price of the saddle. I thought he'd only just started bucking a couple of weeks ago as you said in the original post but now it seems he's always done it. I thought you first said if you'd known this then you wouldn't have taken him but then later you mention that even with hindsight you'd still have taken him. So as I say, I'm a little confused as to what's what but I wish everyone a happy ending as you seem very fond of him.

 

[loopinlou]

Personally I would have any new horse whether purchased outright or on trial (which has only been a couple of weeks at most) their saddle is checked, seen by vet and/or equine dentist and checked by a physio anyway regardless of what others have said has been checked as I trust the professionals that I use to give me their opinion regardless of the additional cost. I then would be led by each professional as to how often they shoUld be reassessed eg/ my horse saw a dentist yearly but had a saddle check going into spring and winter with a visit from the physio 12-18mths unless follow up treatment was required

Having said that I would negotiate the return of old saddle and reduction in price to reflect new saddle purchase. I prob wouldn't use the old saddle to part X for a new one as it is technically not yours ATM so that may be an issue over ownership!

Six months is a generous trial period obviously if anything big showed up then that should have been highlighted at the earliest point

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Just that I'm not clear on whether you want them to pay for half of the new saddle but then I thought you said they'd offered to take off the price of the saddle. I thought he'd only just started bucking a couple of weeks ago as you said in the original post but now it seems he's always done it. I thought you first said if you'd known this then you wouldn't have taken him but then later you mention that even with hindsight you'd still have taken him. So as I say, I'm a little confused as to what's what but I wish everyone a happy ending as you seem very fond of him.

Sorry if I was unclear at all. I ordered a new saddle based on the saddlers recommendations. The seller had told me I could part exchange the old saddle for a new one if it wasn't suitable for him, so when I found out the saddle was irreparable I dropped them a note to let them know part ex wasn't an option. Their response was to offer to speak to the owner about docking some of the saddle costs from the sale price. During the course of this thread I had an email offering to take the full value of the saddle from the sale price - hence me then saying they'd offered to take off the full price of the saddle from the sale price. At no point did I ask them to do this, as whether the saddle has always been a poor fit or not, the horse was in my possession and soon to be mine and I hated the idea of him being in pain.

He's always done little bunny hop bucks in transitions or when he's had enough of working in the school, but I don't really consider them to be proper bucks IYSWIM? So when I said he'd started bucking I meant proper bucks that leave me unseated, but to an outsider I totally get why that might have been confusing.

Had I known he was as green as he is when I viewed him I probably would have walked away as I was looking for a confidence giver as after a few years out of the saddle and a nasty fall beforehand I am rather rusty and would not have believed I'm capable of bringing a horse on. That said, after 3 months I'm incredibly attached to him and have discovered that not only am I capable of bringing him on but I have an awesome support network around me who are willing to offer advice and help when I need it - in a funny way he's giving me confidence, just not whilst riding.

Does that make sense? I'm honestly not a horrible person/buyer/owner and only want the absolute best for my boy, but having not been in a LWVTB situation before I'm unsure of the etiquette, particularly when I'm told to get to know the horse before making an offer, which it seems is the worst thing to do!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Sorry I should have mentioned I was assured the saddle had been checked and fitted before I took the horse on trial as his original saddle had been stolen recently. In the time I've had him he's not done much either (certainly not enough to change shape) as I was finishing off plans for our wedding and was then away on honeymoon, but in hindsight I really wish I'd checked his saddle sooner.

In that case, the seller could legitimately say that the twisted tree is your responsibility and must have happened whilst the horse and saddle have been in your care.
I think that the cost of a new saddle and physio treatment are down to you, tbh. If you had paid for the horse when you collected it, you would have had to sort this out anyway. The seller has allowed you to take your time about paying, after all. Of course it's always worth asking the seller for a contribution to the cost of treatment.

 

[Spring Feather]

Does that make sense? I'm honestly not a horrible person/buyer/owner and only want the absolute best for my boy, but having not been in a LWVTB situation before I'm unsure of the etiquette, particularly when I'm told to get to know the horse before making an offer, which it seems is the worst thing to do!

Yes I get it now. Thanks for the more in depth explanation. I never thought you were horrible in the slightest, it's clear you are very taken with the horse. I just was having a bit of a hard time figuring out where everything fitted in the story.

I personally would swallow the cost of the physio and any other costs as part and parcel of horse ownership and I wouldn't have expected (or wanted!) the saddle to come with the horse so that wouldn't have been an issue either but it's up to you how you handle it. If you do decide to buy the horse in the end then I'd just make my offer, I wouldn't get into how much has been spent here and there, but then I buy and sell a lot so all that's important to me is, I want the horse and here's my offer; take it or leave it, and/or you want to buy my horse or not; forget about reasons/excuses for trying to bump me down, just make the offer and I'll either accept or decline it. :smile3:

 

[Gryfiss]

I think if a price was agreed at the start of the trial the you can't start renegotiating at a later date this is one of the reasons why it puts sellers off trial periods, i'm afraid regardless a what has happened you should pay the full fee and take the rest as an experience that you may learn from in the future.

If you don't want the horse then that's up to you but I would feel 3 months is a very generous trial time and a decision could have been made well before this period.

If I was the seller I wouldn't be negotiable and I would be a bit peed off that I'd been asked.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I think if a price was agreed at the start of the trial the you can't start renegotiating at a later date this is one of the reasons why it puts sellers off trial periods, i'm afraid regardless a what has happened you should pay the full fee and take the rest as an experience that you may learn from in the future.

If you don't want the horse then that's up to you but I would feel 3 months is a very generous trial time and a decision could have been made well before this period.

If I was the seller I wouldn't be negotiable and I would be a bit peed off that I'd been asked.

Hi Gryfiss, as mentioned previously the seller told me to wait to get to know the horse before making them an offer so no, there was no agreed price at the start of the trial, just a vague "I'm after £X but make me an offer once you know him better".

With this in mind would you still expect me to pay their initial price or would you expect me to make them an offer as originally suggested?

I've never taken a horse on lwvtb before so this feels like a huge grey area.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Yes I get it now. Thanks for the more in depth explanation. I never thought you were horrible in the slightest, it's clear you are very taken with the horse. I just was having a bit of a hard time figuring out where everything fitted in the story.

I personally would swallow the cost of the physio and any other costs as part and parcel of horse ownership and I wouldn't have expected (or wanted!) the saddle to come with the horse so that wouldn't have been an issue either but it's up to you how you handle it. If you do decide to buy the horse in the end then I'd just make my offer, I wouldn't get into how much has been spent here and there, but then I buy and sell a lot so all that's important to me is, I want the horse and here's my offer; take it or leave it, and/or you want to buy my horse or not; forget about reasons/excuses for trying to bump me down, just make the offer and I'll either accept or decline it. :smile3:

Thanks! I always think you give sound advice so really do appreciate your take on this. I made an offer this afternoon so hopefully we can get this all sorted very soon.

In that case, the seller could legitimately say that the twisted tree is your responsibility and must have happened whilst the horse and saddle have been in your care.
I think that the cost of a new saddle and physio treatment are down to you, tbh. If you had paid for the horse when you collected it, you would have had to sort this out anyway. The seller has allowed you to take your time about paying, after all. Of course it's always worth asking the seller for a contribution to the cost of treatment.

I completely agree, however when I mentioned he seemed quite sore in the back the seller was quick to say they new they should have bought a saddle that fitted him properly rather than make do with one. I think the reason I felt they should potentially deduct some of the physio costs from his final price and have been shocked by some of the replies to this thread is because right from the moment these issues arose the seller was quick to blame themselves and the cheap saddle for the issue and were grateful that I was willing to put the time and money in to getting him fixed so it never once crossed my mind I was responsible as dumb as that sounds.

 

[Gryfiss]

sorry I skipped to the end well personally I think a figure should have been agreed in the first place.

I think you should offer close to what they said. Like you say a grey area.

 

[harrysmum]

Duplicated!

 

[Spring Feather]

Thanks! I always think you give sound advice so really do appreciate your take on this. I made an offer this afternoon so hopefully we can get this all sorted very soon.

Aw thanks, kind of you to say. I'm probably a bit more abrupt than many others when buying and selling because I do it more than most so I often can't be bothered with the this and that of it all. Best of luck with your offer, I hope you all end up happy.

 

[harrysmum]

Rest assured that you're NOT a terrible ( potential ) buyer/ owner! People see things from all sorts of different angles - mostly based on their past personal experiences ( as were my comments),It would be a happier world for many horses if a lot of other owners showed as much concern for their horses as you clearly are for one that you do not actually even own! Do hope there's a happy outcome for you both