New trainer in action 10

Armas

Armas

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For those that are interested here is the video from today. I think that todays session was much more productive.
I am sorry that the video quality is poor today I had to use my iPhone :(
At the end of every session I will be asking the trainer for her comments on how she felt about Armas performance.

Yesterday we worked on a long reining session the video is on Armas page. As is her comments on the video 8 session which did not go so well.

Armas is now relaxing in the sun and will not be training till Sunday.

[video=youtube;c4z-jFA5RWA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4z-jFA5RWA&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Sack the cameraman :p

Got 5 mins left to watch but I'm going out, so will have to finish up later.
Looks like some progress was made on the 8th session after all that ;) - looks more generally rideable today :). she is putting a bit less pressure on him this time but he is doing less bunny hopping, the walk-trot transitions are true and he looks like he's stepping into the rein more consistently. The right hind looks less of an issue to because he's softer overall.

:)
 
milliepops said:
Sack the cameraman :p

Got 5 mins left to watch but I'm going out, so will have to finish up later.
Looks like some progress was made on the 8th session after all that ;) - looks more generally rideable today :). she is putting a bit less pressure on him this time but he is doing less bunny hopping, the walk-trot transitions are true and he looks like he's stepping into the rein more consistently. The right hind looks less of an issue to because he's softer overall.

:)
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I agree sack the cameraman rubbish today ! I was pleased with today.
 
I think people have probably been a bit harsh with their comments. Especially saying this rider is going backwards, I havent watched all your videos, but surely anyone who knows anything about horses realises when you sit on a new horse you are not going to be able to take up exactly where a previous rider left off. It takes a while to learn the different quirks of every horse.
I do feel she could give a little bit more with her hands but from the clips iv watched he does seem to be going better.

My only real issue is the frequency of the training sessions as Id imagine the horse is bored out of his mind, you say he hasnt jumped in 2.5 months, is there a reason for this. If nothing wrong with the horse I would definately replace one of these a week with a jumping lesson
 
This was almost the full session however as my phone had limited memory I did not record the numerous times she stopped and let him just walk and realised the reins.
 
snooples said:
I think people have probably been a bit harsh with their comments. Especially saying this rider is going backwards, I havent watched all your videos, but surely anyone who knows anything about horses realises when you sit on a new horse you are not going to be able to take up exactly where a previous rider left off. It takes a while to learn the different quirks of every horse.
I do feel she could give a little bit more with her hands but from the clips iv watched he does seem to be going better.

My only real issue is the frequency of the training sessions as Id imagine the horse is bored out of his mind, you say he hasnt jumped in 2.5 months, is there a reason for this. If nothing wrong with the horse I would definately replace one of these a week with a jumping lesson
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None of my horses has ever jumped; they are not bored.
 
Do your horses do the same thing everyday


And I clearly wasnt saying horses have to jump not to be bored, I was saying the horse seems to be doing these sessions nearly every time he is ridden so it would be good to break things up a bit and Iv read that he used to be jumped once a week (i tihnk) so I thought that would be the obvious thing to suggest
 
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Armas has stated in previous threads that he does in fact hack a lot too.

Don't forget the purpose of these threads is to look at his schooling only so maybe shouldn't assume that's all that goes on.
 
He looks better today - his movement is a lot more true, particularly in the trot. Personally I would incorporate a lot more stretching within the movements, rather than just at walk, because he does seem to tire in the trot work and therefore offers something very nicely and upon numerous repetitions starts to offer less. But that's my own personal preference for training, and I think I'm a little more slowly, slowly catchy money than this lady.
 
He said the horse is doing these sessions 5 times a week which is why I mentioned it as a side note. But he is giving him a break till Sunday now which I didnt notice when I first read the thread.

To me mental stimulation is one of the most important things in life for both humans and animals, horses cant tell you when they are bored.
 
I think they(can) just switch off if over drilled... but considering they stand about in the same fields all day quite happily, I'm not sure they have the same concept of boredom that we do ;)

Agree that variety is good for many though, mine went up the gallops today to stretch her back out and keep her thinking forward :) Back to school tomorrow though.
 
There are moments in this video, especially in the canter where it almost looks like he forgets he is supposed to tuck his chin in his chest!

Really nice to see some better work and a less stressed looking horse. It'll take him a while to get out of bad habits and I do have big issues with some of the things this trainer does, but so long as she can continue on this vein...working with rather than against him it should continue to improve.
 
DabDab said:
He looks better today - his movement is a lot more true, particularly in the trot. Personally I would incorporate a lot more stretching within the movements, rather than just at walk, because he does seem to tire in the trot work and therefore offers something very nicely and upon numerous repetitions starts to offer less. But that's my own personal preference for training, and I think I'm a little more slowly, slowly catchy money than this lady.
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I could not video the whole session as I used my phone today.I left the camera battery at home in the charger !
She gave him a fair few breaks to stretch. But did not video those as needed the memory space.

_GG_ said:
There are moments in this video, especially in the canter where it almost looks like he forgets he is supposed to tuck his chin in his chest!

Really nice to see some better work and a less stressed looking horse. It'll take him a while to get out of bad habits and I do have big issues with some of the things this trainer does, but so long as she can continue on this vein...working with rather than against him it should continue to improve.
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I agree this work if carried out seems to be heading in the right direction we shall see what happens next week.
I have also asked her to lunge him with out the draw reins.
 
Armas said:
I could not video the whole session as I used my phone today.I left the camera battery at home in the charger !
She gave him a fair few breaks to stretch. But did not video those as needed the memory space.
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Ah I see - definitely sack the camera man then!
 
Armas (or possibly _GG_ or someone with more experience then myself!) just a question about this. I have watched nearly all of the videos now, and in some videos I am cringing at how the trainer is riding and how she is with armas, then some videos in parts I think she looks decent, she seems to be doing all the right things.

Is it just me being silly and novice or is there a reason with the differing ways?
 
jellybeanz said:
Armas (or possibly _GG_ or someone with more experience then myself!) just a question about this. I have watched nearly all of the videos now, and in some videos I am cringing at how the trainer is riding and how she is with armas, then some videos in parts I think she looks decent, she seems to be doing all the right things.

Is it just me being silly and novice or is there a reason with the differing ways?
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It's not novicey...it is a very intelligent observation. You only have to read through my posts on each video to see how my own views are constantly changing on this rider. Yes, I have an overall view of her, but have made many comments in her favour and many against it.

In all honesty, I believe that this rider is very talented, but have an inckling that perhaps she is not quite completely settled and secure in her own training methods. I think it is a very good thing to try different things when riding new horses and getting to know them. I infact encourage that as believe that you can't ride all horses the same. Different horses respond to different things, so it is good to change things up and experiment and try to figure out the best way forward.

On the flip side, I feel that there are times that this rider is not listening well enough to what the horse is saying to her. This has meant many moments if opportunity to reward good effort from the horse have been lost. Many moments of opportunity to encourage more from the horse have been lost. It also means that there have been many occasions in which the horse has become tense and the tension has been countered with asking for more, as opposed to diffusing it and moving on.

There are moments of understanding between the pair, but they are not often enough for my liking.

I watch some videos thinking, enough now...he's better off with no trainer than with her, but there are videos that show signs of major improvement in some of the work that leave me feeling that Armas is justified in giving her the opportunity to improve. i would put a time limit on this, maybe 3-4 weeks tops as any longer and the training could have longer lasting effects.

I will go out on a limb here though and say what I feel deep down in my gut about this trainer.

I feel that if this beautiful horse was left with her and was trained without the presence of James and all of his questioning, that we would see a very different rider. I feel that if training alone, she would be much much more forceful with the horse and potentially ruin him. I say this because she has made changes along the way, but I wonder how many of those changes have been through introspection and how many have come about through James questioning and desire to see his horse ridden less forcefully.

So...she has her good points, she has her bad points.

Would I ride the horse the same way? No. I would actually approach this whole thing from a totally different angle. I would ask far fewer questions, but with that, I would expect better answers. So...less quantity, more quality.

I would feel how the horse felt. I wouldn't automatically do collected/lateral work. Iwould feel for how the horse moved underneath me going forward in a relaxed manner in a number of different frames and let the horse tell me where he is most comfortable. I would then introduce some other work within this frame and see how the horse felt about it. If, for instance I found the most relaxed frame and asked for a little lateral work whilst in that relaxed frame...i would listen and feel for what the horse was telling me. Is he happy to move laterally? Is there tension? Is there tension on one rein and not the other? Does he feel sticky in any part of the motion of the movement? Does he feel sticky on one side and not the other?

Other general questions I would be listening for the answers to would be:-)

Is he happy with the bit?
Can he move his shoulders freely under this saddle?
Does he respond to seat and weight aids?
Does he respond better to the aids on one rein that the other?
Is he more forward on one rein that the other?
Does he bend and flex better in one direction than the other?
What gait is most naturally relaxed in?
What tempo is most naturally relaxed in?
How does he respond to changes of tempo within the gait?
Can he respond to my core aids?

Questions like these above are basic things that I always ask myself when I ride any horse. Whether it is one if my own that I ride all the time or a new horse that I have never sat on before.

You can't just get on a horse and work it IMO. Think of yourself...some mornings you wake up with a crick in your neck or a stiff shoulder. You make allowances for that as you can feel it. If you don't allow yourself time to feel how your horse is, you risk working it through it's problem areas, not giving allowances and therefore, potentially making things worse.

If for instance I found that my horse was unable to bend around my inside leg on the left rein, I wouldn't assume he was stiff on the left side...I would feel and ask, is he actually just tight on the right side. i would change the rein. If the horse was able to bend easily around my inside leg on the right rein, then I would know that there was some stiffness along the right hand side of the horse. So...I could tailor my warm up around relaxing, stretching and easing up the right hand side of the horse until he was able to bend more consistently between the reins.

Better to do this and then start work on a supple horse, than assume it was unwilling on the part of the horse and just push him through the work.

Armas is a beautiful horse, but not without his issues. Do I think these issues can be overcome by this trainer? Potentially yes, but I feel she may create as many issues as she resolves and it will take a very long time.

Do I think that this horse can overcome these issues quickly? Yes. With the right approach, there is no reason that this horse can't learn a new way of going very quickly. He is an intelligent beast...I would credit him with the ability to absorb things like a sponge if given the chance and learn to accept the bit very quickly. It can and will only happen quickly with the right rider though. To be honest, I don't feel either this or the male trainer that was the other choice would be able to achieve that with him.

It is so hard to explain but so easy to show. I wish I lived in France...I'd never charge someone if the opportunity to ride such a stunning horse was on offer.

Maybe that's why I never went into it as a business though...too much of a soft touch and always end up doing it for free, lol.

I don't hate this trainer at all....but I really would like to see her try to understand this horse a bit more, listen to him a bit more and not be quite so demanding at this stage.

Hope that's the kind of response you were looking for :)
 
I never read long posts, { my mind wonders off} but I found GGs post just SO interesting.
I feel like I need to offer you the money to go to france to ride armas :D
 
ameeyal said:
I never read long posts, { my mind wonders off} but I found GGs post just SO interesting.
I feel like I need to offer you the money to go to france to ride armas :D
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I normally hate writing long posts, lol. There are some threads on here at the moment about, "on the bit" and I just can't seem to post without needing to write a flipping book to explain my thoughts on it all. These things are so tricky to explain and I always think, if someone interprets what is being said the wrong way, they may go and try it and make thinks worse so I tend not to both normally.

This horse just has something about him and I haven't been able to stop myself.

Made me laugh earlier though, was explaining it a bit to Dan about the rider and horse combination and he said, "horses for courses kinds think surely...if you have a certain type horse, you need a certain type rider". Bless him...he knows nothing about horses and came out with that :-)
 
Haha, what ameeyal said.
I'd just like to thank GG (and a number of other posters) for their contribution to these threads, and Armas for posting them in the first place. They've proven to be incredibly interesting reads and very informative. So yes, thank you very much guys. :D
 
These threads have honestly been so interesting, I have not commented much but thank you James for continuing to post :) and GG/Milliepops etc for such interesting input! :)
 
Little mutual appreciation society going on in these threads now :p

Anyone else getting withdrawal symptoms? I mean, it's nice for the horse to have a break, but WHAT are we going to talk about while we wait for the next installment?! ;)
 
katherine1975 said:
Can we send GG and milliepops to France to ride Armas and have some videos of it? :)
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*snort* No pressure there then!! :o

On the flip side I'd find it really interesting to see the french rider on my horse... Don't all fall about in horror ;) It would take some of the guess work & speculation out of it for me as I know what she feels like to ride, and has been prone to similar issues in the past :p
 
The next instalment will be on Sunday if you can drag your selves away from the white queen ! Sunday is going to be a long reining session as she feels this will be most beneficial after a break then a ridden session on Monday.
If parties are interested I will post the LR session alternatively it will be on Armas FB page. However I will post all the ridden sessions unless the grief becomes too much :(
I think all these post have been extremely interesting. Milliepops & GG when are you coming to visit :eek:
 
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