New trainer in action 7

Bryndu said:
Hi,
I have lurked on here...watched you schooling your boy beautifully....gone through hell with you, the boy and the the choke thing....watched all of the vids.....and now I am going to ask something....well two somethings actually..

1. Why does the person riding your horse ALWAYS have him behind the vertical into a holding hand?

2. Do you believe this person is doing your horse good?

It seems to me he is just going backwards in his training.....and you need to get back on to redress the balance.

I hope I havn't offended you....it is not my intention....but in this vid in my opinion...he is gradually losing more and more muscle....not gaining it.....and that surely has to be down to incorrect schooling?

I wish you all the best with your wonderful boy......but feel I cannot watch anymore.

Best wishes
Bryndu
Click to expand...

I have a certain amount of sympathy with this post. The main thing I see is someone yanking on that hugely sensitive structure - the mouth, rather than encouraging the horse to take the reins (a whole different more subtle skill set?) which I agree is uncomfortable - but then this is a very controversial subject as we all know.
 
OP - great respect to you. I have no opinion really - unless one knows the horse, has ridden him etc. quite hard to say good/bad/better/worse - only you can do that and only you can decide if you are happy with the way he is going. I simply don't know enough to comment productively.

BUT

What makes me so happy about this post is that it has somewhat restored my faith that here, on HHO, there are several people who are interested and knowledgeable in aspects of working a horse. So far, the No hat/hi-viz/too hot to work them/wrong bit/aren't you cruel making them sweat/evil you have shoes on brigade, that seem to run this place haven't hi-jacked a very interesting thread. Hurrah ! :D
 
Bestdogdash said:
the No hat/hi-viz/too hot to work them/wrong bit/aren't you cruel making them sweat/evil you have shoes on brigade, that seem to run this place
Click to expand...

:eek::eek:
Really? Are we on the same forum? :confused: I've had almost nothing but positive encouragement and advice, despite being very novicey in the nearly two years I've been here. And except for the very rare exception, all the threads I see are mostly like my own experience and the negative comments are very much in the minority.
 
FionaM - forgot to mention lack of sense of humour !:)

The point I was making was that the trainer wasn't wearing a hat, working in sunny conditions - which, frankly, I do too (unless jumping or on a strange horse). This normally provokes a rapid response from many members. If I were to post a thread headed

Riding without a hat when the weather is hot - many loads would decend on me !

Anyway - wish I hadn't bother trying to raise a little smile, probably too hot ! No offence intended
 
_GG_ said:
It's coming. :)
Click to expand...

Bestdogdash said:
FionaM - forgot to mention lack of sense of humour !:)

The point I was making was that the trainer wasn't wearing a hat, working in sunny conditions - which, frankly, I do too (unless jumping or on a strange horse). This normally provokes a rapid response from many members. If I were to post a thread headed

Riding without a hat when the weather is hot - many loads would decend on me !

Anyway - wish I hadn't bother trying to raise a little smile, probably too hot ! No offence intended
Click to expand...

I enjoyed your light hearted post and I viewed it as an attempt to lighten the subject.
 
I'm enjoying these threads even though I can't see the videos.
the constructive posts are a good read.
Thanks for continuing to post, Armas.
 
I didn't like the first video, at all, but there is clearly improvement in this one. It certainly doesn't look as rushed, some of the canter work is lovely and although he is clearly behind the vertical on several occasions, it isn't all the time like it was in the first video. If he improves each time the way he has done from the first session to this session, then I can't wait to see the sessions in a few weeks time! :)
 
Holly Hocks said:
I didn't like the first video, at all, but there is clearly improvement in this one. It certainly doesn't look as rushed, some of the canter work is lovely and although he is clearly behind the vertical on several occasions, it isn't all the time like it was in the first video. If he improves each time the way he has done from the first session to this session, then I can't wait to see the sessions in a few weeks time! :)
Click to expand...

I agree the first video was not pretty to watch and it was never going to be. The first video with brown boots was never pretty and many hated it however that opinion soon changed.
Yes he is btv the vertical but that is him putting him self there and we are slowly addressing that issue. Its the vets belief that he does this because he is not used to working properly from his haunch. Once better engagement starts and more muscle develops that issue should hopefully go.
I watch the rider on every session and I can tell you she is not forceful she is firm and fair. I agree that she could allow him to stretch more but not at the cost of loosing the contact at this point.
Some issues have been raised that I agree with and have acted on.
I trust my judgment and I know my horse. In a few weeks time hopefully those that are hypercritical will be proved wrong.
 
James it might be worth noting that those who are 'hypercritical' are reacting to what is in front of them now. Positive results in a few weeks won't make past viewing any more comfortable. Whether the desired results are achieved, in time, or not, some of us still wouldn't go forward with this practice. Oh and you know what, that's ok...you choose to. Doesn't mean people will change their opinion of what they see in the moment.

Your return with a beautifully balanced horse won't mean that I change my mind in thinking that her practice is heavy handed and confusing for Armas. It will be Armas' acceptance that changes his outcome.
 
The recurrence of this 'rollkur' thing is interesting - I know it is a very contentious subject (and rightly so), but for horses of a particular build it isn't uncomfortable for them to be btv and is actually more comfortable than working 'properly' in the short term, because they haven't got the muscles to support that. I do wonder whether this would be the same conversation if the videos were of a thoroughbred going round with its head up and its nose poked out or a cob going on the forehand. Something like my horse would probably find it extremely uncomfortable to go round with his head in the air and nose poked out because it is not the way he is built, but for the majority of thoroughbreds it is no bother, and if you were to loose the reins in the hope that they would drop their nose to the floor and work over their back you would have exactly the same way of going, just with looser reins. You have to effect the change bit by bit.

I am by no means singing the rider's praises - to do that I would have had to feel what the horse was like to ride, but I do find it interesting what a sensitive issue it is when a horse goes btv
 
Billie1007 said:
James it might be worth noting that those who are 'hypercritical' are reacting to what is in front of them now. Positive results in a few weeks won't make past viewing any more comfortable. Whether the desired results are achieved, in time, or not, some of us still wouldn't go forward with this practice. Oh and you know what, that's ok...you choose to. Doesn't mean people will change their opinion of what they see in the moment.

Your return with a beautifully balanced horse won't mean that I change my mind in thinking that her practice is heavy handed and confusing for Armas. It will be Armas' acceptance that changes his outcome.
Click to expand...

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

DabDab said:
The recurrence of this 'rollkur' thing is interesting - I know it is a very contentious subject (and rightly so), but for horses of a particular build it isn't uncomfortable for them to be btv and is actually more comfortable than working 'properly' in the short term, because they haven't got the muscles to support that. I do wonder whether this would be the same conversation if the videos were of a thoroughbred going round with its head up and its nose poked out or a cob going on the forehand. Something like my horse would probably find it extremely uncomfortable to go round with his head in the air and nose poked out because it is not the way he is built, but for the majority of thoroughbreds it is no bother, and if you were to loose the reins in the hope that they would drop their nose to the floor and work over their back you would have exactly the same way of going, just with looser reins. You have to effect the change bit by bit.

I am by no means singing the rider's praises - to do that I would have had to feel what the horse was like to ride, but I do find it interesting what a sensitive issue it is when a horse goes btv
Click to expand...

Exactly !
 
Do you not think 5 days a week of that sort of work is very intense

For a horse whose main aim isnt to be a pure dressage horse (unless he is supposed to be) I would be thinking 2 sessions max a week would be enough of this esp if he gets lunged every time.
then 2 days hacking and a day jumping to keep him interested.
 
snooples said:
Do you not think 5 days a week of that sort of work is very intense

For a horse whose main aim isnt to be a pure dressage horse (unless he is supposed to be) I would be thinking 2 sessions max a week would be enough of this esp if he gets lunged every time.
then 2 days hacking and a day jumping to keep him interested.
Click to expand...

No a session is 45 mins maximum 4 x per week and one session long reining. He is a fit horse so the work is not to difficult.
 
Armas said:
No a session is 45 mins maximum 4 x per week and one session long reining. He is a fit horse so the work is not to difficult.
Click to expand...

Its not really physically I was thinking but more mentally. I wouldnt do anything more than twice a week with a horse really except hacking (on different routes) horses do get bored easily. With jumping they can make it obvious when they are having too much but its harder for them to let you know when its just flatwork.

This is not me saying you should stop altogether or change trainers or anything like that but Im definately of the opinion with horses that less is more!
 
Horrible to watch. BVT, hard hands.

You say armas is fit, but I thought he had just recovered from SI? How can he be capable of doing all this constant schooling?
 
that's kind of what I was getting at earlier snooples, I do think that asking a horse to work differently to what it is used to on successive days is quite a big ask for it physically. It would be for the ones I know anyway and would hate for his SI niggle to re-emerge.
 
James, out of interest what joint support does Armas get for his SI because my mare honestly has an identical sticky walk. Just wondered what you were giving if any as when in correct work and supplemented my mare is much better.
 
ester said:
that's kind of what I was getting at earlier snooples, I do think that asking a horse to work differently to what it is used to on successive days is quite a big ask for it physically. It would be for the ones I know anyway and would hate for his SI niggle to re-emerge.
Click to expand...
He is used to this kind of work and has worked much harder in the past

Billie1007 said:
James, out of interest what joint support does Armas get for his SI because my mare honestly has an identical sticky walk. Just wondered what you were giving if any as when in correct work and supplemented my mare is much better.
Click to expand...

No specific supplement, Calm & Conditioning Equus Health WINTER GLOW / SUMMER SHINE garlic and soya oil.
What do you recommend ?

TheTrotter. said:
Horrible to watch. BVT, hard hands.

You say armas is fit, but I thought he had just recovered from SI? How can he be capable of doing all this constant schooling?
Click to expand...

Si injury 7 months ago horses that have had cortisone injections should be worked to build muscle to protect the Si.
 
but this is a new trainer asking him to work differently? :confused: and stop him ducking behind the vertical :confused:. So although he might be used to this 'level' of work the technique/movement being asked of him is different surely? Is that not the whole point of the training to improve his way of going?

Absolutely agree that building correct muscle will help support the SI joint anyway but doesn't the same allowing time for muscle repair/microtears to sort themselves as is suggested in humans apply in equines?

I could understand 'pushing on' with BB as he was with you for a limited amount of time, but as this lady is fairly local..
 
ester said:
but this is a new trainer asking him to work differently? :confused: and stop him ducking behind the vertical :confused:. So although he might be used to this 'level' of work the technique/movement being asked of him is different surely? Is that not the whole point of the training to improve his way of going?

Absolutely agree that building correct muscle will help support the SI joint anyway but doesn't the same allowing time for muscle repair/microtears to sort themselves as is suggested in humans apply in equines?
Click to expand...

The work is not much different all basic movements and maintaining a constant contact. We are carrying on the work brown boots started.
The vets gave him the all clear to resume full normal work months back. I don't think the volume of work too much.
Yes the whole point is to improve his way of going.
BB worked him twice a day. He now is doing less than half of the work he has been used to.
 
45 mins 4 times a week is too much?
Sorry I must be missing something.
What is so bad about that?
I find forums so very strange sometimes .
 
well its 5 per week including the long reining, I also think we get the impression it is quite a lot due to the frequency of the vids, when we are seeing one every day people take away the feeling that he's been a busy horse recently if that makes sense.
 
Teabiscuit, I agree! a general point, putting aside the whys and wherefores of the training... does nobody take anything at face value anymore?

If the vet has cleared the horse's return to work, why is that still in question? It came up on another thread. Are we saying the vet is incompetent too?

Asking a question is one thing but tbh I'm a bit baffled really as to why any of us could think we know better than the people miles away that are caring for the horse ;)
 
milliepops I think probably because the clear to work was several months ago and people that have had horses with SI issues perhaps know they can grumble on a bit/reappear/remaining weakness will show up or be aggravated by work perhaps.

I don't have any strong feelings either way re armas and armas the horse, I just have ponderings and have found it interesting reading the threads and who has contributed what :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top