Nice quiet riders

[Clodagh]

My mum lives in Chulmleigh where there’s a livery yard. I’m pretty sure it’s the law that you can only exercise from there in draw reins. And as you are so busy yanking at the horse you can’t thank drivers for stopping, either.
Sorry, off topic but I really want to post an advisory letter to the yard!

 

[Kunoichi73]

I've been told by my RS instructors that I'm a nice, quiet rider! I'm hoping it's true. It can be difficult on RS horses though. Some of them are so use to beginners with no clue and excessive aids, that they don't always respond to quiet!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I'm a quiet rider, tending towards too quiet tbh! With it comes a lack of confidence which is annoying because I have been told that I'm fairly capable and could be doing more than I am. Dang it brain!

 

[Sossigpoker]

What I really want is someone to exercise my quiet little cob for me a bit.Some nice hacking.Everyone I see ride though rides in the approved head pinning style and think i am rather thick because I don't.

I feel you.
I also have a cob, I'm on a professional competition yard where everything goes in draw reins and behind the vertical.
I know they bi**h about me and look down their noses at me. But I can guarantee my horse is happier and in better health than any of the high level competition horses

 

[Red-1]

I think the problem is that there are 2 types of quiet rider.

One type is quiet because they are not connected to the horse. They would not necessarily feel when the horse was unsure. The horse is not on the bit because it is not engaged and it is likely bracing. Many riders get away with this as the horse is somewhat numb/dead.

The second type is quiet because they are 'plugged in' to the horse. They are astutely aware of what the horse is doing. The horse is engaged both in a physical way and a mental way. It may not be on a contact but will be moving forward and softly, and will have give and bend, responding to the rider's seat, leg, weight and attention. The rider is aware of the nuances of the horse and is responding to every query.

I worry that people are sometimes so worried about being too nagging etc that they become passive. IMO, riders have to make mistakes to transition from the first and become the second type of quiet rider.

Last year, BH was ridden very passively because he was a numb baby. He was very laid back. TBH, he was just easier to be a passive rider on. This year, BH is learning to go in a more active way, to be more responsive. Sometimes, we both make mistakes and it can look too forced. Sometimes I do make him regard the floor as opposed to looking for scary things in the hedge. I have every confidence that we will finish the year as more the second type of horse/rider combination, but, for now, I accept that we will both make mistakes while we work it out.

 

[little_critter]

I think the problem is that there are 2 types of quiet rider.

One type is quiet because they are not connected to the horse. They would not necessarily feel when the horse was unsure. The horse is not on the bit because it is not engaged and it is likely bracing. Many riders get away with this as the horse is somewhat numb/dead.

The second type is quiet because they are 'plugged in' to the horse. They are astutely aware of what the horse is doing. The horse is engaged both in a physical way and a mental way. It may not be on a contact but will be moving forward and softly, and will have give and bend, responding to the rider's seat, leg, weight and attention. The rider is aware of the nuances of the horse and is responding to every query.

I worry that people are sometimes so worried about being too nagging etc that they become passive. IMO, riders have to make mistakes to transition from the first and become the second type of quiet rider.

Last year, BH was ridden very passively because he was a numb baby. He was very laid back. TBH, he was just easier to be a passive rider on. This year, BH is learning to go in a more active way, to be more responsive. Sometimes, we both make mistakes and it can look too forced. Sometimes I do make him regard the floor as opposed to looking for scary things in the hedge. I have every confidence that we will finish the year as more the second type of horse/rider combination, but, for now, I accept that we will both make mistakes while we work it out.

Yes. Timing is everything. You can be quiet, but you also need to be very quick and accurate. And you need to listen and feel for your horses smallest responses.
I find this difficult: being subtle but accurate. Giving clear aids in a very timely manner but without getting ‘louder’.
It seems to be easy to be quiet but woolly. Or clear but harsh. Being quiet and clear is (for me) a tricky balance.

 

[Red-1]

Yes. Timing is everything. You can be quiet, but you also need to be very quick and accurate. And you need to listen and feel for your horses smallest responses.
I find this difficult: being subtle but accurate. Giving clear aids in a very timely manner but without getting ‘louder’.
It seems to be easy to be quiet but woolly. Or clear but harsh. Being quiet and clear is (for me) a tricky balance.

This is where BH and I are not the lovely picture just now. We looked OK when he was being numb but laid back, we will look grrrrreat once we are in tune. At the moment, I am feeling for him and correcting little corrections, but he is more , "Eh? Say what?" so I am reinforcing. For now, it looks less beautiful than last year. But, it is a road to something better as I start with a small aid before reinforcing and he will soon become lighter to me. We can then be a lovely picture together.

You want to be light, but you can only be as light as you can be in any given situation.

I see so many riders paralysed by fear of doing too much that horses end up doing very little, which is OK if they are also laid back, but it isn't as good for me as one who can be relaxed and on an open frame but plugged into the rider, softly complying. To get there takes some errors though.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I often say that these days no one can ride a horse, they can sit on one but not actually ride it.

 

[LEC]

In order to be a quiet rider the horse needs to be forwards and off the leg. Every 3/4yo who has just been backed makes even the best riders look like numpties while this process is undergone and they learn about forwards.

 

[Denali]

I know one. She’s a junior and rides outside of Glasgow. I’m a quiet rider but it took me loads more time than this natural I know.

 

[Rowreach]

In order to be a quiet rider the horse needs to be forwards and off the leg. Every 3/4yo who has just been backed makes even the best riders look like numpties while this process is undergone and they learn about forwards.

Quite right. Not very many people know what "forwards" actually means, or how to achieve it. And until the horse is going forward, nothing else can happen properly. Scales of Training and all that.

There's a dealer near here who likes to post before and after photos on his FB page. "Before" is usually a picture of a scruffy animal just landed in the yard. "After" is a pic of the horse having had a clip and a tidy, with him riding it with his knees up his nose and his hands in his lap (I was going to put something ruder there) and the horse's head screwed into its chest. And people love it. He's started doing lessons now ...

 

[Caol Ila]

In order to be a quiet rider the horse needs to be forwards and off the leg. Every 3/4yo who has just been backed makes even the best riders look like numpties while this process is undergone and they learn about forwards.

Welcome to my world. I'm glad the forum understands. Have to consciously shut out feeling like a numpty/judged at the yard and not get stressed - because that does. not. help. Very few people there have backed a horse themselves.

She went through a really sticky phase but is now improving again. Going really well (knocking on all the wood). That leg = forwards has a slow download time.

 

[Bonnie Allie]

And the alternative view - I get to ride my husbands exquisitely trained horses (he is a professional). Due to his deep experience he is subtle, exacting and effective and his horses are truly stunning to ride.

I think I’m a quiet rider but his horses tell me otherwise. The ears go back and forth querying politely just what that aid might be - is it canter you are looking for? Could you be a bit clearer please?

I tell my husband I’m doing a service for him, dumbing his horses down so that muppets can ride them.

Trying my hardest, and I know I won’t be allowed to ride them unless I follow his instructions to the letter.

I believe most riders are doing the best they can with the knowledge, experience, time and resources they have available to them.

 

[Red-1]

In order to be a quiet rider the horse needs to be forwards and off the leg. Every 3/4yo who has just been backed makes even the best riders look like numpties while this process is undergone and they learn about forwards.

Yep, this is where I am at. Mine is a little older though as, when I got him at 4, I was so stressed with life, I just ambled around. This year, I am less stressed, we are sorting out the ground rules finally.

I was out for 2 hours yesterday and there were a few occasions that I looked a total numpty. There were a few occasions where legs were a kicking, hands were a wobblin' and whip was a flappin' because of something 'scary' that BH had seen. It was not something genuinely scary though, it was a reaction to actually being made to be forward and me insisting on more reaction to the aids. The actually getting him forward and reacting to the leg is no longer what makes me look silly in itself (progress!) but just the bits where something is distracting and he thinks that previous rules would apply. He would prefer to take control of his head (lifting it high), take control of his shoulders (ready to turn) and ignore the leg (grind to a halt). He had to be put back on the aids, so his ears were out of my nose and I had a soft feel in the rein, so I could determine the route we took and so I could ask him forward.

I disagree with the 'in order to be quiet' part of LEC's post though. In my year of ambling around last year, I was doing it on a laid back but obliging horse, so I was very quiet and we just did what he wanted. I sat there, he crawled round. I used to joke that by the end of the ride I would have been quicker if I had got off and pushed! I don't want that to be forever though, as we were constrained by keeping to whatever he could naturally manage without support, as he hadn't learned to recognise subtle support, as in a touch and a feel. It would likely have fallen apart if I had got him competition fit or tried to push his boundaries. He is such a nice horse that I was able to have a great summer, cantering on the beach, popping XC fences and whatever, but I would be kidding myself if I thought it was actually as safe and harmonious as a horse who is actually trained to be attentive.

I have trained several through this, I am looking forward to the days to come when I can again sit effortlessly, but plugged in and and aware, answering his queries as soon as the thought is formed. In fact, we are having snatches of this already, half a mile at a time, where he is on it, stepping through, lifting and politely interested. He had some time turned away to grow up last winter, he is only just getting back into it now, new year, new training. He will now rhythmically stride forward, secretly bend to whatever side I ask, do a little collect and release, go forward again... all without me looking like I have done much at all.

The training started on the ground, moving his shoulders away was incredibly difficult mentally for him. He was somewhat earthbound. Taking weight behind and being light to move the front over was not something he understood. I had never really been in control of the shoulders ridden, all the more difficult when the leg was just dull noise to his brain.

Still, only been at it a three months and he went to his first clinic earlier this week. He had only cantered in an arena 3 times this year (done a bit more out hacking) and he was sooo far advanced compared to last year. In fact, with the 'lift' from being somewhere new, with other horses, I did NOT look the numpty. I was able to sit nice and quiet, adjusting balance. But, to get there, there have been some less beautiful moments.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I feel like I’m a nice, quiet rider. Not an excellent rider but a nice, quiet one. I can get most horses to work sweetly, and I’m always getting compliments about my soft hands.

That being said, I feel like, with my way of riding, I wouldn’t bother competing. Everyone seems to ride so strongly to get expression and movement out of a horse.

I am probably just not a good enough rider but I seem to manage to get a horse to work softly, rhythmically and correctly but without any kind of excitement or pizazz. I think I’m a highly boring rider!

 

[Rowreach]

Reading some of the replies it seems there’s a disconnect between the definition of a quiet rider being someone who looks/is effective while seemingly doing nothing, and the quiet rider who has enough feel and nous to know when to do something that may not look so pretty but achieves what is necessary at the time, and for the future.

In terms of the OP they’re looking for someone who can ride forward and relaxed with awareness, and not someone who is hanging on to the front end and hoaking the horse’s nose into its chest.

Far too many people forget (or never know in the first place) that it’s the rear end of the horse you need to be riding, not the front end.

 

[scats]

I’m always amazed on social media how many likes and gushing comments that very fiddly and handsy riders get, just because the horse is ‘in a shape’. The best are the ones who show footage of their pro rider on their horse, with their hands buried into their laps and horses head pinned in.

 

[little_critter]

As mentioned earlier we are working on getting my horse more responsive to very light leg aids. This is being done with positive reinforcement. The strength of the aid doesn’t increase. You start by rewarding the slight shift of weight that precedes a step (in response to a light leg aid), then reward the step when that is given.
It feels odd to ask the horse to walk on, only to immediately stop and reward it….but it’s working.
The horse learns surprisingly quickly. In just a week mine now responds to a light touch of a leg and is keen to move off at the mounting block. The next project is maintaining that forwardness; he tends to doubt himself and you can feel him backing off as if to say “do you still want me walking forwards?”
I had a lesson yesterday, I probably looked like a total beginner. The lesson consisted of walking a few meters and halting. Towards the end we progressed to riding a circle!
It was all done quietly, there was no escalation, only reward for effort / tries. And if he didn’t ‘get it’ we would have gone back several steps to working in hand to remind him of what we were asking.

I did find this very frustrating to begin with, it felt like I was totally learning to ride again and bemoaning the fact that “I used to be able to do this”. I had been competing fairly competently and felt I’d gone from doing an ok novice test to learning how to walk again.
But the lack of forward / lack of responsiveness has been the thing hampering our progression so I needed to go back to square one and fix that.

 

[Red-1]

Reading some of the replies it seems there’s a disconnect between the definition of a quiet rider being someone who looks/is effective while seemingly doing nothing, and the quiet rider who has enough feel and nous to know when to do something that may not look so pretty but achieves what is necessary at the time, and for the future.

In terms of the OP they’re looking for someone who can ride forward and relaxed with awareness, and not someone who is hanging on to the front end and hoaking the horse’s nose into its chest.

Far too many people forget (or never know in the first place) that it’s the rear end of the horse you need to be riding, not the front end.

I agree. The reason I posted was because I think this misconception is widespread. I used to teach people with confidence issues, often they were sooo trying to be the kind and quiet rider, they ended up ineffective.

Yesterday, with BH, there would have been occasions where he would have looked to be in hyperflexion. I don't ride him like that, but we needed to get to the canal bridge before the barge or we would have had a long wait. He wanted to gawp. I decided that no, we need to go. He wanted to gawp. For 20 yds or so, he was instructed to look at the floor and get on with it! He did, he complied and we cleared the bridge. We then went back to concentrating on a swinging stride with neck telescoped out, politely holding the bit ready to comply with any small request such as a bend or alteration in balance.

It was not a pretty moment, but he has learned from it that, when mum says we are going, then that is happening. Next time (lor a few times down the line) we won't have the ugly.

I remember a few years back, a well regarded poster, with plenty of common sense and experience, had a new horse that they put through their system. It included riding out with two schooling whips, and they said so. It was a temporary thing to get the horse to realise that when the leg is applied, he must go forwards. Or sideways. It isn't something I have done, but I winced as I waited for criticism.

I see so many people stuck because they too, like I did, wanted it all to be Disney. I have no issue with that per-se, people who want to play with the horse, heck, it was me for two years recently when I needed time out, but I also don't like to think we are so down the line that people can't do the less pretty stage of training where aids have to be bigger that we would wish.

Yes, there is a bog difference between an effective rider making the corrections they need, with the aim of making it all invisible in the end, by giving the aids at the thought, and the riders who fiddle and faff because they think it looks good.

 

[Red-1]

As mentioned earlier we are working on getting my horse more responsive to very light leg aids. This is being done with positive reinforcement. The strength of the aid doesn’t increase. You start by rewarding the slight shift of weight that precedes a step (in response to a light leg aid), then reward the step when that is given.
It feels odd to ask the horse to walk on, only to immediately stop and reward it….but it’s working.
The horse learns surprisingly quickly. In just a week mine now responds to a light touch of a leg and is keen to move off at the mounting block. The next project is maintaining that forwardness; he tends to doubt himself and you can feel him backing off as if to say “do you still want me walking forwards?”
I had a lesson yesterday, I probably looked like a total beginner. The lesson consisted of walking a few meters and halting. Towards the end we progressed to riding a circle!
It was all done quietly, there was no escalation, only reward for effort / tries. And if he didn’t ‘get it’ we would have gone back several steps to working in hand to remind him of what we were asking.

I did find this very frustrating to begin with, it felt like I was totally learning to ride again and bemoaning the fact that “I used to be able to do this”. I had been competing fairly competently and felt I’d gone from doing an ok novice test to learning how to walk again.
But the lack of forward / lack of responsiveness has been the thing hampering our progression so I needed to go back to square one and fix that.

This is what I did with Rigsby, he had Celerybrations. It made him interested, forward, soft. However, when confronted with a bus, for example, he still needed to know that yes, go, and now. Even in the year with him where it was all Disney in the school, on occasion it could be less beautiful when out hacking.

 

[ycbm]

My personal bugbear at the moment is that we seem to have moved the "hands down either side of the withers" siderein style of riding out of the dressage arena and into the show dumping ring and on to the cross country. So many photos of young riders jumping with pinned hands. It "works" until you reach a height where the horse needs to stretch its neck to clear the fence, then all the wheels fall off and the horse is blamed for knocking fences and starting to refuse.

 

[SEL]

My personal bugbear at the moment is that we seem to have moved the "hands down either side of the withers" sidezrein style of riding out of the dressage arena and into the show dumping ring and on to the cross country. So many photos of young riders jumping with pinned hands. It "works" until you reach a height where the horse needs to stretch its neck to clear the fence, then all the wheels fall off and the horse is blamed for knocking fences and starting to refuse.

Is that because they're taught that hand position from the off? The only thing I was taught with me hands as a young kid was thumbs on top and follow the horse - it's hard to change patterns that are ingrained from a young age. Slipping the reins and gathering them up on landing came pretty naturally to us kids jumping and I automatically did it the one time I was persuaded to take a horse xc in my 40s & it over jumped something

I couldn't fix my hands by the withers if you paid me - it just feels odd - but then I also can't do the PK elevated hand position despite an instructor trying with me once. It's quite hard to break old habits (& I'm definitely in the category of leisure rider these days!)

 

[oldie48]

My experience is that I can be a quiet rider when the horse is nicely on the aids and is well schooled and I am rather less quiet on a horse that's behind the leg and blocking me. I also feel that every time I ride or handle a horse I am training it so I try to ensure I am modelling the behaviours I want as I don't think it's kind to expect one sort of behaviour in the school and another on a hack, horses like consistency. tbh I tend to focus on how the horse feels rather than how I look and ride accordingly. I've watched hundreds of lessons over the years and it's interesting how often riders think they are giving a very strong aid when from the ground they seem to be doing nothing apart from quietly nag. It's made me a much more positive rider ie ask clearly don't nag the horse and if he doesn't respond ask more strongly. I'm sure this will horrify some of you but IMO it's much better than a continuous nag which just deadens the horse to the aids completely.

 

[Rowreach]

My experience is that I can be a quiet rider when the horse is nicely on the aids and is well schooled and I am rather less quiet on a horse that's behind the leg and blocking me. I also feel that every time I ride or handle a horse I am training it so I try to ensure I am modelling the behaviours I want as I don't think it's kind to expect one sort of behaviour in the school and another on a hack, horses like consistency. tbh I tend to focus on how the horse feels rather than how I look and ride accordingly. I've watched hundreds of lessons over the years and it's interesting how often riders think they are giving a very strong aid when from the ground they seem to be doing nothing apart from quietly nag. It's made me a much more positive rider ie ask clearly don't nag the horse and if he doesn't respond ask more strongly. I'm sure this will horrify some of you but IMO it's much better than a continuous nag which just deadens the horse to the aids completely.

I do agree that a nagging aid will achieve nothing whereas a correct aid, properly applied and reinforced if necessary with a tickle from a schooling whip is highly preferable.

I don't agree though about this bit

I don't think it's kind to expect one sort of behaviour in the school and another on a hack,

They are two totally different environments and activities. That's a bit like saying you'd expect to ride the same/get the same response from the horse whether you are doing dressage, sj or xc. I want a horse to be forward, happy, responsive to the aids all the time, but I'm asking for (or allowing) a different focus from it depending what we're doing at that particular time. I used to back a lot of horses before I got old and decrepit, and following groundwork, getting on board and establishing stop/go/left/right, I took them hacking and completely avoided the arena for as many weeks as it needed to have a forward, confident horse that was then ready to start school work. And then I would want something different from the horse when we were in the school, or the field, or out hacking, as the training progressed. I don't see how that is unkind when it is establishing the horse as a safe, responsive, relaxed individual which can adapt to any environment?

 

[Cloball]

Just my 2 cents but something I feel in myself and am training myself out of ...

Is it a confidence and over horsing issue. Hear me out. I know many people with the hard hands will talk the talk but it's easier to feel more confidence and stable with the hand brake fully on and a strong contact. I know myself I feel better but this is a crutch and actually makes the situation worse with Mrs B as it makes her anxious.

She is very easy to ride quietly but isn't exactly engaged, we are working on leg being forward but not necessarily faster she think she's is a tiny hairy race pony sometimes.

 

[oldie48]

I do agree that a nagging aid will achieve nothing whereas a correct aid, properly applied and reinforced if necessary with a tickle from a schooling whip is highly preferable.

I don't agree though about this bit

They are two totally different environments and activities. That's a bit like saying you'd expect to ride the same/get the same response from the horse whether you are doing dressage, sj or xc. I want a horse to be forward, happy, responsive to the aids all the time, but I'm asking for (or allowing) a different focus from it depending what we're doing at that particular time. I used to back a lot of horses before I got old and decrepit, and following groundwork, getting on board and establishing stop/go/left/right, I took them hacking and completely avoided the arena for as many weeks as it needed to have a forward, confident horse that was then ready to start school work. And then I would want something different from the horse when we were in the school, or the field, or out hacking, as the training progressed. I don't see how that is unkind when it is establishing the horse as a safe, responsive, relaxed individual which can adapt to any environment?

Actually I think we are saying the same thing but in a different way. "Behaviours" to me, mean on the aids, listening to the rider and ready to respond if asked.

 

[Flame_]

I'm a quiet rider, tending towards too quiet tbh!

Lol, me too. I know my talent is getting on and not really doing very much at all. Hence I buy arabs who IME generally appreciate this style.

 

[little_critter]

I also think that some of the noise that riders give horses is about being seen to be doing something, especially in a group environment.
For example, your horse decides that today it doesn’t go over poles on the ground. If you were at home in your own you might quietly but persistently work on getting your horse happy with poles. Taking all the time you need.
But with others watching you you can put pressure on yourself to look like you are dealing with the situation. Instead of quietly giving time it’s tempting to kick and flap and rush, because sitting quietly looks like you are not doing anything about it.

 

[Kunoichi73]

As a RS rider, it is much easier to be a quiet rider on the horses that are responsive to aids. You don't have to worry about 'encouraging' them to trot or canter and can concentrate on giving the correct aids. It's more difficult to give correct aids if you're really having to constantly push the horse, particularly as a novice. If a sharer is coming from a RS background, it is likely they get into bad habits because a lot of the horses need extra encouragement, which can mean more flapping and kicking, which in turn can mean not giving the correct aids at the right moment or in the right place. I can be as guilty of this as anyone when riding certain horses. It also means that it can be difficult to correct the bad habits and trust yourself to give quiet, correct aids, when riding a more sensitive horse.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think the definition of a quiet rider is probably quite varied across the thread.

To me, a quiet rider is one who remains, as much as possible, in balance and harmony with the horse’s own movements so that there is no obvious friction or struggle. It means something totally different to a weak or ineffective rider. I think a rider can be quiet and ineffective, or quiet and very effective.

I also think the quietness of the rider isn’t something which is related to how the horse is behaving. A quiet rider would quietly guide a rearing horse down, or quietly sit through silliness with an anxious horse. I would use the term to describe the manner in which one handles the horse regardless of the horse’s own response.

I don’t think my quietness changes whether I’m backing a horse for the first time, working through napping or schooling issues or riding a perfectly schooled horse.

I will say, that if the horse is feeling backward or not moving off the leg properly, I prefer not to escalate my aids or the manner of my riding. I generally go back to first principles and work from the ground to achieve responsiveness and impulsion. I want them to learn to be responsive to the ‘loudness’ of communication that I am comfortable with giving. I’m not going to get into a leg/hand/ seat shouting match with a horse. I’ll just wait around all day for them to respond to the level of aids I am happy to give.

But I’m not the kind of rider who gets massive flashy movement or huge energy/ sharpness out of a horse as a result. Hence a bit boring to watch.