Nice quiet riders

[Caol Ila]

Just my 2 cents but something I feel in myself and am training myself out of ...

Is it a confidence and over horsing issue. Hear me out. I know many people with the hard hands will talk the talk but it's easier to feel more confidence and stable with the hand brake fully on and a strong contact. I know myself I feel better but this is a crutch and actually makes the situation worse with Mrs B as it makes her anxious.

She is very easy to ride quietly but isn't exactly engaged, we are working on leg being forward but not necessarily faster she think she's is a tiny hairy race pony sometimes.

I'll sit you on Fin! If he gets anxious, or if he is totally relaxed, he hates a heavy contact. Suits me, because I prefer riding on almost nothing anyway. But I've had to train myself to ride on a light contact even when things feel like they are going south, because one way to make them go south a lot faster is to take a constant, strong contact. If he is getting worried and prancy over something, his poll comes way up so I can shorten my reins, but I keep the contact light, hold him with my seat, and ride a lot of gentle half halts to remind him that I am still there. I used to do the handbrake fully on thing when my old horse got anxious, but that totally backfires with this horse.

 

[Cloball]

I'll sit you on Fin! If he gets anxious, or if he is totally relaxed, he hates a heavy contact. Suits me, because I prefer riding on almost nothing anyway. But I've had to train myself to ride on a light contact even when things feel like they are going south, because one way to make them go south a lot faster is to take a constant, strong contact. If he is getting worried and prancy over something, his poll comes way up so I can shorten my reins, but I keep the contact light, hold him with my seat, and ride a lot of gentle half halts to remind him that I am still there. I used to do the handbrake fully on thing when my old horse got anxious, but that totally backfires with this horse.

I'm learning this very quickly with Darcy when I tried her she was so confident it was easy to ride with virtually no contact. I like the fact she was light and soft in my hand. Of course when somewhere new with someone new things are going to be more stressful so I've installed a little novice strap on my saddle which helps me feel safe and focus on using my seat and not grabbing her face. If I take a hard contact she just goes faster and I can feel her getting worried. In my teenage years I'm sure I was better at it but I'm just trying to relearn the muscle memory. I'm sure I will get better when we trust each other more as she hasn't actually done anything wrong apart from being a forward pony in a new place.

I'm not sure me and Finn would be a good mix but next time I'm in Glasgow...I never did get the chance to ride in Mugdock

Another thought I do wonder, if we are talking about riders with hard hands on social media, if it has to do with balance. I know when I was learning to ride a lot of the riding without reins was starting to be phased out it seemed particularly when jumping and going faster. I can remember doing lots without stirrups, saddles and reins when quite young but none when I went back to riding schools as an older teen after I grew out of my ponies. I am generalising but with social media I wonder if there is a lot of riders who worry more about how they look (you see a lot of comments about EQ) than having an independent hand and seat. Having a hard contact can make you feel more balanced than you are.

 

[blitznbobs]

It depends what you mean. Riding with a forward contact is correct, riding with no contact and a horse that will not go in to the bridle at all is not. (in english riding). A horse that will not let you touch its mouth is horrible to ride and is evading as much as one going round with it's head in the air. It's the knowledge of the difference between a light contact and sitting behind the contact which is what I think a lot of 'nice quiet riders' don't have and the difference of an effective rider and a passenger

 

[SEL]

I think the balance issue is a good one. I've ridden in a lot of countries where the horses were used to going on the buckle - huge number of European riders would struggle with their balance if they couldn't have a "contact". Some apparently riding at a pretty decent level at home too.

 

[Birker2020]

Perhaps someone older? The yanky, yanky rein bring the head down stuff wasn't fashionable when I was young so see less people in their 50s doing it (or perhaps that's because they CBA to compete so don't care where the head is!)

I agree. For the casual rider most people would give anything to go back to those days when you just rode in the school or galloped around the fields jumping fences having loads of innocent fun and not caring where your horses head was or how you looked on top.

I'm in my 50's and when you had riding lessons (1981-1986) you were taught how to walk, trot, canter and jump. You knew how to apply the aids for each transition and if you gathered the reins the horse would speed up, inside leg on the girth, outside leg behind, ask for canter in a corner, etc. That was it. No outline or pushing the horse into the bridle, insisting it was in front of the leg. Those terms were alien to us.

Too much emphasis on looking the part and it removes the fun element imho. I get it when competing but for the 'happy hacker' does it really matter.

No detriment meant for the words 'happy hacker ' btw.

 

[evie.equine]

I personally think the recent video of Lauren Hugh on instagram of her bridle snapping off and her staying on for something like 27 laps of the arena untill someone stops them shows in her reaction what a quiet rider she is but also shows how much people in general rely on the bit an reigns for direction, not their legs. Her reaction is very calm and dont get me wrong she jumps a huge jump and the wings second time round very calmly and i could never but i think she did very well in the situation she was put in!

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Thats the video x

 

[eahotson]

I think the problem is that there are 2 types of quiet rider.

One type is quiet because they are not connected to the horse. They would not necessarily feel when the horse was unsure. The horse is not on the bit because it is not engaged and it is likely bracing. Many riders get away with this as the horse is somewhat numb/dead.

The second type is quiet because they are 'plugged in' to the horse. They are astutely aware of what the horse is doing. The horse is engaged both in a physical way and a mental way. It may not be on a contact but will be moving forward and softly, and will have give and bend, responding to the rider's seat, leg, weight and attention. The rider is aware of the nuances of the horse and is responding to every query.

I worry that people are sometimes so worried about being too nagging etc that they become passive. IMO, riders have to make mistakes to transition from the first and become the second type of quiet rider.

Last year, BH was ridden very passively because he was a numb baby. He was very laid back. TBH, he was just easier to be a passive rider on. This year, BH is learning to go in a more active way, to be more responsive. Sometimes, we both make mistakes and it can look too forced. Sometimes I do make him regard the floor as opposed to looking for scary things in the hedge. I have every confidence that we will finish the year as more the second type of horse/rider combination, but, for now, I accept that we will both make mistakes while we work

I do agree that a nagging aid will achieve nothing whereas a correct aid, properly applied and reinforced if necessary with a tickle from a schooling whip is highly preferable.

I don't agree though about this bit

They are two totally different environments and activities. That's a bit like saying you'd expect to ride the same/get the same response from the horse whether you are doing dressage, sj or xc. I want a horse to be forward, happy, responsive to the aids all the time, but I'm asking for (or allowing) a different focus from it depending what we're doing at that particular time. I used to back a lot of horses before I got old and decrepit, and following groundwork, getting on board and establishing stop/go/left/right, I took them hacking and completely avoided the arena for as many weeks as it needed to have a forward, confident horse that was then ready to start school work. And then I would want something different from the horse when we were in the school, or the field, or out hacking, as the training progressed. I don't see how that is unkind when it is establishing the horse as a safe, responsive, relaxed individual which can adapt to any environment?

You have a good point there

 

[Red-1]

I'll sit you on Fin! If he gets anxious, or if he is totally relaxed, he hates a heavy contact. Suits me, because I prefer riding on almost nothing anyway. But I've had to train myself to ride on a light contact even when things feel like they are going south, because one way to make them go south a lot faster is to take a constant, strong contact. If he is getting worried and prancy over something, his poll comes way up so I can shorten my reins, but I keep the contact light, hold him with my seat, and ride a lot of gentle half halts to remind him that I am still there. I used to do the handbrake fully on thing when my old horse got anxious, but that totally backfires with this horse.

I don't think many horses enjoy a heavy contact. If a horse is feeling antsy, usually there is more power there. Putting a brake on that, as in a consistent, strong contact, will not lose the antsy energy and will block it. Then, it has to go somewhere, as back end is still going yet the front end has stopped. Sometimes this will be a rear, or a launch, or a spin, but a consistent strong contact on both sides will only exacerbate the issue.

With a correctly trained horse, I will generally introduce a bend in such a situation. then, the inside rein can be light, the outside one is lengthened. The bend will encourage the lengthening and lowering of the head. The horse can then be rewarded by a release, back to normal riding pressure, which is a conversation and feel rather than a specific contact strength. It is right through the body, not just the mouth. Right through the spine, felt by the seat/legs... everything.

BH's go-to was to stick his head up and ignore the contact when alarmed. He is a placid type and I hadn't done a deal of schooling with him, so he was safe enough to just wait it out. That got me through a year of fun but I am schooling him to bend and release, even under stress, now. Allowing the previous behaviour is do-able but something of a dead end, IMO.

 

[Red-1]

Additionally, once trained in, the reins become less needed. This horse was a confirmed rearer when he came. Any contact when stressed and he would be up. I always used a neck strap.

He had a load of training, he was quite fixed in his ribs, so we worked on softenting the ribs then softening in the brain. The bend was part of that. He became a delight and, as you can see, the reins were no longer necessary as, if he became tense, I could use seat/leg/weignt/intent to soften him again before it ever got through to his mouth. He went from severe bits before purchase to a snaffle for all 3 phases of eventing.

Some of the schooling would have looked a bit like BH at the moment though. Never pulling back with both reins, as blocking them, especially when energised, is always a bad thing. It is just a procedure, as they understand, it becomes light and subtle.

 

[Cortez]

I agree. For the casual rider most people would give anything to go back to those days when you just rode in the school or galloped around the fields jumping fences having loads of innocent fun and not caring where your horses head was or how you looked on top.

I'm in my 50's and when you had riding lessons (1981-1986) you were taught how to walk, trot, canter and jump. You knew how to apply the aids for each transition and if you gathered the reins the horse would speed up, inside leg on the girth, outside leg behind, ask for canter in a corner, etc. That was it. No outline or pushing the horse into the bridle, insisting it was in front of the leg. Those terms were alien to us.

Too much emphasis on looking the part and it removes the fun element imho. I get it when competing but for the 'happy hacker' does it really matter.

No detriment meant for the words 'happy hacker ' btw.

The sort of old fashioned riding you describe is basic transportation. Academic, educated riding is a different thing entirely. The problem occurs when people capable of the former attempt to emulate the latter without progressing through actually learning or understanding how to do it.

 

[spacefaer]

I have a friend who would class themselves as a quiet rider. They come and hack out with me occasionally and usually put them on my safest hunter. I hack the horse round the lanes on the buckle - horse marches out and is absolutely easy to be a passenger in, if you're just going out to admire the view and have a chinwag!
Friend has previously ridden exercise on professional event or show jumping yards so first instinct is to pull the horse's head into "an outline" Horse is quite capable as he's schooled to medium, but usually expects corresponding leg support, prior to a contact.
Horse then jogs which is a surprise to him and me. I ask my friend to drop the contact and ride on a long rein. Their reply - oh you want me to ride like a cowboy

 

[Caol Ila]

I'm not sure me and Finn would be a good mix but next time I'm in Glasgow...I never did get the chance to ride in Mugdock

It is lovely! He's actually pretty relaxed when out with a group, most of the time.

I don't always ride him on no contact (though we do plenty of that when hacking) but the feel I have when I do take contact, like when schooling, is usually very, very light. You can feel his mouth, but there is no weight in the reins. It's like holding hands with a good dance partner and not pulling them around. The follow your feet and your feel. It is also dynamic - there may be times when I do need more pressure, like when he ignores an aid to bend or tries to take over the steering. But it always gets released as soon as I get a response.

When I let other people hack him, I tell them 'no contact' because it keeps it simpler than explaining what I mean by a soft feel or following a feel. And because far too many riders are taught to ride with a lot of weight in the hand, holding the head down, and virtually no release. He is fine slobbing on a loose rein when hacking in company.

I too was taught this in dressage lessons in the dim and distant past. It never worked well. My mare was chronically behind the leg, because from her perspective, I was riding with the handbrake on. I suppose some horses deal with this style of riding by becoming more powerful behind the contact, but she just tuned out your leg. I only found the impulsion button on her when I changed my approach to the classical/Western axis of riding on the release and separating the hand and leg aids.

Works perfectly well on my two horses now. Hermosa is learning the western hackamore, which is all riding on the release.

With a correctly trained horse, I will generally introduce a bend in such a situation. then, the inside rein can be light, the outside one is lengthened. The bend will encourage the lengthening and lowering of the head. The horse can then be rewarded by a release, back to normal riding pressure, which is a conversation and feel rather than a specific contact strength. It is right through the body, not just the mouth. Right through the spine, felt by the seat/legs... everything.

Yup. Working on that with both horses. Hermosa is picking it up quickly in her loping hackamore. Fin is very much a work in progress on this front because he is inclined to brace against you. Being a short-coupled horse with a big, powerful neck, he finds that easy. And as discussed in other threads, when he gets scared, it is tricky to get his mind and body back to you.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I'll sit you on Fin! If he gets anxious, or if he is totally relaxed, he hates a heavy contact. Suits me, because I prefer riding on almost nothing anyway. But I've had to train myself to ride on a light contact even when things feel like they are going south, because one way to make them go south a lot faster is to take a constant, strong contact. If he is getting worried and prancy over something, his poll comes way up so I can shorten my reins, but I keep the contact light, hold him with my seat, and ride a lot of gentle half halts to remind him that I am still there. I used to do the handbrake fully on thing when my old horse got anxious, but that totally backfires with this horse.

Agree with you. I dont sit anyone on BB as he has no bit so his mouth and people are too scared to ride a tb with no bit , it can never be hauled on and he can tell from my butt aids and voice aids what I want him to do.
I remember I offered an acquaintance a ride on bb, she had just lost her mare and was missing riding and she said , ‘only if you put a bit on’ Hmm why would I? He has been bitless for 5 years and I cannot see that changing anytime soon. I said NO point blank! As she is the hard rider that thinks she has to use a crop, haul on a mouth and use hard leg. Ach well! Your loss

 

[Kunoichi73]

The sort of old fashioned riding you describe is basic transportation. Academic, educated riding is a different thing entirely. The problem occurs when people capable of the former attempt to emulate the latter without progressing through actually learning or understanding how to do it.

Is there any advice you can offer to those of us without a horse, who ride RS horses, on what we can work on/ask our instructors to work on that would help us progress to this sort of riding?

 

[little_critter]

Bit of a happy post this morning. T is capable of some lovely work on hacks, but tends to zone out in the school. As I mentioned up thread, Im working on him responding to lighter aids and me not nagging. Difficult to do when he’s not mentally engaged. Just for the last 1-2 weeks ive been working on rewarding his response to the lightest touch. I’ve not been doing this intensively, just several times a week.
Historically he’s been the most switched off on weekend mornings. As I tacked him up in the lovely warm spring sun this morning I thought “you are going to be hard work today”
BUT…as soon as we got in the school and started our little in hand reminder he tuned in and was mentally and physically engaged. He wasn’t fizzy, but he was responsive.
We did ridden work too, focussing on response and also working on bend.
I was incredibly happy with him and it’s really proved to me that we are on the right path

 

[Cortez]

Is there any advice you can offer to those of us without a horse, who ride RS horses, on what we can work on/ask our instructors to work on that would help us progress to this sort of riding?

Unfortunately in my experience the average bog standard UK riding school will not be able to do much more than teach you how to stay on and steer (I am aware that this is not true of ALL riding schools). The most honest (and most fun) advice I can give is to go on a riding holiday to a specialist teaching place in Spain or Portugal, sorry

 

[little_critter]

Is there any advice you can offer to those of us without a horse, who ride RS horses, on what we can work on/ask our instructors to work on that would help us progress to this sort of riding?

The difficulty is that both you AND the horse need to be trained to use / respond to light aids.
If the RS horse you are on has tuned out and only reacts to pony club kicks, and every other rider who rides it uses pony club kicks, then the horse will not be listening out for your quiet whisper.
It would also depend on how much you get to decide what you do in a lesson. Asking a horse to tune in to quiet aids will probably involve a lot of boring looking waking and halting. If the instructor is expecting you to trot to the rear of the ride you don’t really have the autonomy to do that work.
But give it a go, see how light and quiet you can be to get a response

 

[Kunoichi73]

Unfortunately in my experience the average bog standard UK riding school will not be able to do much more than teach you how to stay on and steer (I am aware that this is not true of ALL riding schools). The most honest (and most fun) advice I can give is to go on a riding holiday to a specialist teaching place in Spain or Portugal, sorry

Don't be sorry. It's honest advice. Funnily enough, for the last year or so, I've been looking at a few places in Portugal for a teaching based riding holiday! I might look a bit more seriously for next year. It's finding somewhere where I can get accommodation that doesn't charge me a single supplement that is the killer. I'm keeping my eyes open for special offers!

 

[Kunoichi73]

The difficulty is that both you AND the horse need to be trained to use / respond to light aids.
If the RS horse you are on has tuned out and only reacts to pony club kicks, and every other rider who rides it uses pony club kicks, then the horse will not be listening out for your quiet whisper.
It would also depend on how much you get to decide what you do in a lesson. Asking a horse to tune in to quiet aids will probably involve a lot of boring looking waking and halting. If the instructor is expecting you to trot to the rear of the ride you don’t really have the autonomy to do that work.
But give it a go, see how light and quiet you can be to get a response

Most of the lessons I do are private, so I do have a good level of input on what I can do. Some of the horses are quite responsive and I don't mind working on walking and halting. I often do a bit of this myself as part of the warm up.

 

[Cortez]

Don't be sorry. It's honest advice. Funnily enough, for the last year or so, I've been looking at a few places in Portugal for a teaching based riding holiday! I might look a bit more seriously for next year. It's finding somewhere where I can get accommodation that doesn't charge me a single supplement that is the killer. I'm keeping my eyes open for special offers!

The major, major advantage of this (quite apart from the lovely holiday aspect) is that you will get to feel what a properly balanced, highly trained horse feels like: i.e. what every horse should feel like. I will never forget the choirs of angels that sang when I experienced a truly balanced collected canter for the first time, and that was 40 years ago!

 

[Rowreach]

Most of the lessons I do are private, so I do have a good level of input on what I can do. Some of the horses are quite responsive and I don't mind working on walking and halting. I often do a bit of this myself as part of the warm up.

I do a lot of work in walk, and teach a lot of work in walk, but that is another interesting thing - until the horse is forward in walk you are not going to be able to get a forward transition to halt. You sound like the sort of person I like to teach Some riders naturally have more feel than others, and some can learn feel, and some can't (or won't). But nuanced, really skilled riding comes with a lot of practice on a lot of different horses. It's being able to get on any horse and quickly understand how to ride it, rather than assuming that every horse is a Ford Fiesta

 

[stangs]

Unfortunately in my experience the average bog standard UK riding school will not be able to do much more than teach you how to stay on and steer (I am aware that this is not true of ALL riding schools). The most honest (and most fun) advice I can give is to go on a riding holiday to a specialist teaching place in Spain or Portugal, sorry

Any yards in particular that you'd recommend?

 

[teapot]

Is there any advice you can offer to those of us without a horse, who ride RS horses, on what we can work on/ask our instructors to work on that would help us progress to this sort of riding?

You either need to go to Spain/Portugal as Cortez suggests, or find one of the bigger centres and a coach who gets 'it' in the UK, and has the horsepower to offer at least some elements. I've got one, but still very aware it's a mile away from what you can get abroad. That said, she's still managed to give me a feel lightbulb moments and the 'oh, that's nice' feeling.

I'd have recommended where I worked for a bit but sadly both decent coaches have moved on if you wanted Spanish horses specifically. Lomond has always had a good reputation if you have the new £80 a lesson cash to spare and are down south

 

[shortstuff99]

Any yards in particular that you'd recommend?

Epona in Spain is good and you can do Rafael Soto (former head trainer for Spanish School of Equestrian Art) clinics here too https://eponaspain.com/

This place in Portugal is also very good and the head trainer, trained with Nuno Oliveira. https://www.inthesaddle.com/rides/alcainca/

I am also trying this place at the end of the month to brush up on my dressage and working equitation skills https://www.inthesaddle.com/rides/quinta-do-rol/

 

[Kunoichi73]

The major, major advantage of this (quite apart from the lovely holiday aspect) is that you will get to feel what a properly balanced, highly trained horse feels like: i.e. what every horse should feel like. I will never forget the choirs of angels that sang when I experienced a truly balanced collected canter for the first time, and that was 40 years ago!

It was interesting the other week when I rode one of the instructor's horses. He isn't classically trained but I felt that much more power was coming from the hind quarters than with most of the RS ponies. It was actually quite disconcerting!

I do a lot of work in walk, and teach a lot of work in walk, but that is another interesting thing - until the horse is forward in walk you are not going to be able to get a forward transition to halt. You sound like the sort of person I like to teach Some riders naturally have more feel than others, and some can learn feel, and some can't (or won't). But nuanced, really skilled riding comes with a lot of practice on a lot of different horses. It's being able to get on any horse and quickly understand how to ride it, rather than assuming that every horse is a Ford Fiesta

Thank you! Do you fancy moving to Merseyside?

There is one of the RS horses, in particular, that responds to a light touch, but she's not very supple (ex-show jumper). You need to ride her quietly or she just blasts off. When I rode her, I noticed last lesson, that if I hold too much of a contact she will get faster, but having the confidence to relax to a light contact takes a bit of will power! In fact, as we finished the lesson my instructor commented on it and I was quite chuffed that I'd noticed this during my lesson! I know that none of the horses I ride are of massively high training standards, which is a bit frustrating! I'm probably building up bad habits just because of how the RS horses respond (or don't respond!).

Access to quality horses (and really high class instruction) is one of the things that frustrates me about being a RS rider!

 

[Kaylum]

It absolutely bugs me at these have a go jumping events. The quality of some of the riding is appalling. Children and adults. No instructors just bash your animals around jumps and then get your friend to film it and put it on facebook and get a rosette. Poor horses people landing on the necks constantly or pulling them in the mouths. Most haven't a clue how to school a horse never mind jump. They can't see a stride never mind the centre of the jumps. Just bash them over.

Then there are the videos of how high can they jump. Landing terribly and off balance. Someone I know their child jumps everyday and she films it. One was making the pony jump high flapping legs and snacking whip landing terribly so I happened to see her and she and her friend were boasting about it. I said your not helping your pony and your going to damage it. She laughed at me. It was then mentioned to me by someone else who had seen the video who was really upset by it. Today they posted again. So it goes on.

 

[Cloball]

It was interesting the other week when I rode one of the instructor's horses. He isn't classically trained but I felt that much more power was coming from the hind quarters than with most of the RS ponies. It was actually quite disconcerting!


Thank you! Do you fancy moving to Merseyside?

There is one of the RS horses, in particular, that responds to a light touch, but she's not very supple (ex-show jumper). You need to ride her quietly or she just blasts off. When I rode her, I noticed last lesson, that if I hold too much of a contact she will get faster, but having the confidence to relax to a light contact takes a bit of will power! In fact, as we finished the lesson my instructor commented on it and I was quite chuffed that I'd noticed this during my lesson! I know that none of the horses I ride are of massively high training standards, which is a bit frustrating! I'm probably building up bad habits just because of how the RS horses respond (or don't respond!).

Access to quality horses (and really high class instruction) is one of the things that frustrates me about being a RS rider!

If you're Merseyside you could try North Wales... Might take just as long but the drive would be scenic. There is a riding school with Lusitanos out on the Llyn peninsula, I haven't tried personally... Yet, but have heard some good things.

 

[Kunoichi73]

If you're Merseyside you could try North Wales... Might take just as long but the drive would be scenic. There is a riding school with Lusitanos out on the Llyn peninsula, I haven't tried personally... Yet, but have heard some good things.

Thank you! It's a couple of hours drive from me but I could make a weekend of it at some point. Will add it to my 'to-do' list!