No winter turnout how does everyone survive??

[meleeka]

There is a definite balance of enrichment vs confinement. I don't know where the line is scientifically. I know everyone loves their horses and does their best, but genuinely i think a lof of people turn a blind eye to the reality of how their horses quality of life suffers because they don't have a better option for them.

I think that's exactly it.

 

[paddi22]

thats the point im arguing tssyandi,, we are on the same side. I have no issue with a horse going out from 7am to 4pm. My issue is horses not going out at all. Someone said its the same as a hamster in a cage, but my point was that a hamster gets to expend energy and chance pace at least, an option that isvnot available to 24/7 stabled horses.

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Oh Millipops . . I totally give up . . My over all point was. . .i would not not have my animal on a yard with no winter turn out, regardless if on DIY, Livery, Full Livery . .

 

[Mabelthefoal]

This is clearly quite an emotive subject. I think in the end everyone tries to do what's best for their horse and themselves. Just to clarify by 24/7 I mean out when not in use ( I couldn't be bothered to work it out down to how many hours being worked/ groomed/ fed etc) and by most people I mean the majority of people I speak to. Clearly if your horse is not happy being out or you prefer keeping in then that's what you do. We had an ex racer once who used to point blank refuse to leave the stables in bad weather! On the other hand we've had horses that fret and stress if in for more than a couple of hours, so it really does depend on horse, circumstances and what yard you are at.

 

[Tyssandi]

My appologies I thought you were including horses in part time

But the reality is if you are shutting something in a small limited space and it has no control over leaving, then it is jailed. I don't think someone keeping their cat in a house is jailing it. But i would think someone keeping a cat in a 2ft by 2ft box (which would be a proportionally large stable) IS jailing it.

My Apologies I thought you were including those who were in a stable part time in your description of a small place and jailing it.

why is it restricted I wonder???

too many horses? bad drainage?



Personally unless you are on clay or bad drainage, one of my pet hates is not being allowed to turn your horses out, very poor excuse if the Y/O is not managing the land so this is restricted.

We have NEVER restricted grazing (unless lami) and never will. Horses need to be out and mooching, and not cooped up for hours and hours eating and not moving

.


This is poor management IMB

That is what I said earlier

 

[AdorableAlice]

I have a retired horse who lived in on the continent until he was 7, then imported to a well known dressage yard in Surrey where he again lived in. His day pre me buying him as a 10 year old, was on the walker, on the lunge and then schooled.

When he came to me it took him an entire year to adapt to being turned out in the mornings and he had to be back in by 5 ish or he would start to stress and if it rained he wanted in immediately. This was fine as he was a competition horse. He retired through injury and with the help of a special friend we devised a new lifestyle for him. It has been very interesting to watch him develop his routine and under no circumstances can it be changed. He lives alone but surrounded by other horses, in 3 small paddocks and has a large barn as his house. Rubber flooring with a deep shavings bed at one end. At this time of year he puts himself to bed at dusk and stays there until dawn. If the day is dry he goes out and waits at the gate for his breakfast, if it is wet he stays put and waits for breakfast in bed. This routine is stuck to with the only changes being the time of dawn and dusk, in mid summer he goes to bed at 10pm and out again at 4am.

If he is seen going into his house in the middle of the day I can guarantee it will start to rain within minutes. His barn door can never be shut with him in or out. They say horses like routine, my lad takes it to another level. He is 24 now and every day is cherished as without his special home he would have to be pts.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

We opted to rent additional paddocks so as to have sufficient grazing for year round 24/7 turnout. We rotate between them as required - each paddock is rested for at least as long as it has been grazed, usually three times as long. We also poo pick twice weekly year round, and feed haylage from October through April. We get through a round bale in ten days. The haylage is fed in large builder's sacks, which are placed in different parts of the paddock each day (one sack per horse). The water barrels are also moved regularly to avoid poaching.

 

[mariew]

I haven't read it all, but we're on heavy clay and very few yards can maintain ideal turnout in the winter. We're lucky to have sandpits where they can at least get a change of scenery and this year they've still had a bit of turnout which is fab.

My horse has even put herself on 2 month box confinement in the past as the fields were too muddy a few years back and she point blank refused to trapse through the mud. I guess it all comes down to a compromise, and if you can't live with no turnout, and this is generally the only option then your only other choice is to be horseless.

Where I grew up turnout tends to be very limited over the winter, and restricted to smallish pens, but the horses also get worked a lot to keep them sane. They don't particularly seem to suffer or didn't show any particular stable vices or stress signs more than here. It's just a different way of keeping a horse, you get very large yards, with decent indoor schools, and part of that it isn't really that easy to have big turnout fields per horse when there's 100 horses on the yard!

 

[wingedhorse]

I’ve moved my horses to 35 minutes drive away and part livery. But they have sandy winter soil, and my horses can go out at night all year round. Which is 16 hours plus of turnout. Plus good well drained varied hacking.

Cannot put a price on this IMO.

 

[Casey76]

This is my turnout

My horses are out from 6:30 til after 5.

They don't run around, they don't play, they can't even walk around properly because the mud (clay) is still 8ins deep and as it is now drying out it is creating huge amounts of suction. If they stand still eating the hay they actually get stuck.

I have to religiously check for mud fever because their fetlocks and pasterns never dry out completely, even overnight (due to the sticky clay).

T spends more time standing at the gate than she does anything else.

You can't tell me it is healthy for a horse to spend 24/7 with wet legs. I struggle with 12 hours, and I'm going to have to put up with the aftermath of pulpy coronary bands for weeks to come.

I hate winter... but they are out, and 98% of other yards do not offer turnout at all in winter (and more than one or two offer no turnout at all, all year round).

 

[wingedhorse]

This is my turnout

My horses are out from 6:30 til after 5.

They don't run around, they don't play, they can't even walk around properly because the mud (clay) is still 8ins deep and as it is now drying out it is creating huge amounts of suction. If they stand still eating the hay they actually get stuck.

I have to religiously check for mud fever because their fetlocks and pasterns never dry out completely, even overnight (due to the sticky clay).

T spends more time standing at the gate than she does anything else.

You can't tell me it is healthy for a horse to spend 24/7 with wet legs. I struggle with 12 hours, and I'm going to have to put up with the aftermath of pulpy coronary bands for weeks to come.

I hate winter... but they are out, and 98% of other yards do not offer turnout at all in winter (and more than one or two offer no turnout at all, all year round).

Do your horses want to be out? Or do they want to come back in? Arent they injuring themselves?

Is there a bit of drier bit at the back, or is it all like the front?

I had a lot of success with pig oiling legs to stop mud sticking when turning out on deep wet clay.

But the shoe loss, and difficulty walking in it made me decide to revaluate.

 

[Cortez]

Casey, honestly, why do you bother putting them out there? I wouldn't put a pig in that (actually pigs would love it!), I cannot see any benefit at all, and a plethora of problems. Of course other yards in the area don't offer turnout, what on earth is the point?

 

[DanceswithCows]

Pigs don't love mud like that either, they enjoy a cool mudbath when its hot but the rest of the time they're forced into it because they dig, it gets wet, and then where else can they go? nothing likes living in 24/7 chilly mud.

I'm OK with no turnout, but if thats the case my animals live lose in pens in a barn together. Mine are out now, but there's 7 on 50acres so its not chewed up and they have dry spots, concrete to eat hay on and trees to shelter under, if it was going to be a postage stamp of mud, they'd be in.

 

[Cecile]

This is my turnout

My horses are out from 6:30 til after 5.

They don't run around, they don't play, they can't even walk around properly because the mud (clay) is still 8ins deep and as it is now drying out it is creating huge amounts of suction. If they stand still eating the hay they actually get stuck.

I have to religiously check for mud fever because their fetlocks and pasterns never dry out completely, even overnight (due to the sticky clay).

T spends more time standing at the gate than she does anything else.

You can't tell me it is healthy for a horse to spend 24/7 with wet legs. I struggle with 12 hours, and I'm going to have to put up with the aftermath of pulpy coronary bands for weeks to come.

I hate winter... but they are out, and 98% of other yards do not offer turnout at all in winter (and more than one or two offer no turnout at all, all year round).

Oh I just couldn't cope with that paddock. Is that your winter paddock as it looks so tiny from that photo? It also seems to be located close to where building are
The paddock in the distance on the right looks better but photo's can be so misleading and I assume as its on lower ground it could be worse down there than what you have
I really don't envy you with that set up, small wonder you hate winter

 

[Tiddlypom]

Casey, sorry to jump on your post along with others, but not long ago you were bemoaning how your turnout was frozen, and how one of your horses was hobbling on the frozen ground. That clay soup you show in the pic, if frozen, would be absolutely lethal, why on earth would you turn out on it?

 

[ester]

I hope Casey doesn't mind me saying but iirc her yard has little turnout for the number of horses, from the map she posted I suspect the field in the distance doesn't belong to the yard as the land round there was really broken up between different owners. She also has particularly small stables and a horse with EPSM.

 

[Casey76]

I hope Casey doesn't mind me saying but iirc her yard has little turnout for the number of horses, from the map she posted I suspect the field in the distance doesn't belong to the yard as the land round there was really broken up between different owners. She also has particularly small stables and a horse with EPSM.

Yep, we have 20 horses on a total of 6 acres split into individual paired turnout. I have one of the largest "fields" which is about 0.2 acres, and is actually borrowed from another land owner who hobby farms it for oats during the growing season. The "fields" which the other horses go into is divided into strips which are about 8m wide and 50m long, most of which have sycamores along one edge.

I turn out onto it, as I have no other choice. It is either that or into a 12'x12' hard standing pen (which haven't been cared for by other owners, so is thick with dung). My stables are only 2.75x2.5m, so it would be cruelty keeping then in.

I pay my riding instructor to keep B exercised until he is sold. T is only just coming back into work after the extended lay off, and is still being walked for only 10 mins a day. At least out in the mud pit she is free to socialize with B (i.e. chasing him off the hay) and the two horses in the next field.

Why don't I move... because this is one of the best yards in my area. I have a LOT of freedom regarding turnout (i.e. when), what my horses eat, how much hay and bedding they get. e.g. The stables in my village is a riding school. The horses have no turnout, bar 1/2 day per week all year round (other than a 2 week holiday in summer), they are mucked out twice a week in winter and once a week in summer with no bedding top ups in between. The stables are smaller than I currently have. The food is lucerne nuts and crushed barley. There is no differentiation between school and private horses regarding general care.

It's amazing how many people actually prefer their horses not to go out at all in winter - may be it's a continental thing, but as soon as the weather turns bad people start insisting that their horses are kept in (at least on my yard). "it's too slippy" etc

I've looked for other yards, believe me; but anything within a sensible commute (within 30 mins of home or 1hr from work (and that would be accessible if it snows!)), there is no turnout between Oct and April.

 

[milliepops]

I really don't envy you Casey! Whatever we struggle with in the UK seems to pale into insignificance compared to the weird way of doing things in France I'm sure it makes sense to them but I can't understand not at least mucking out daily - I'm not doubting what you say at all as have heard it elsewhere too. Nowt as queer as folk!

 

[Cortez]

Just out of interest, how are the horses in general (condition, demeanour, etc.) that are kept as you describe Casey?

 

[Auslander]

Mine all live out 24/7, bar one who comes in at night. I'm on heavy clay, at the bottom of a slope, so my fields are seriously wet, but I do have pens attached to the fields. The fields aren't looking too awful, because the horses choose to stay in the pens most of the time, where they have adlib hay. If they do go out, they graze for an hour, then bring themselves back in. I don't think they move that much more than a stabled horse, as they just hang out by their hay feeders all day. I guess it's good that they have choices, but I don't think they would be that bothered if they were in 24/7!
When I was working with horses properly, they were either stabled, in full work, or turned away at grass for the off-season. I don't remember any stabled horses having turnout, except for their days off.

 

[Goldenstar]

My first job was with hunters they came off the hill and to work .
The yard I was on was considered modern as the horses did get some turn out young horses i.e. Three and four year olds in for training got out most days for a couple of hours and hunters got the day out after hunting and perhaps a couple of hours another day if the weather was good and it fitted in .
What they got was work proper hacking up and down hills lots of trotting .
They had settled roultine they were fed early by the YOer who then went off the yard by the time we got in a seven everybody had eaten up and everything happened at the same time every day .
Hard food was given four times a day and after the lunch time one we were all off the yard for an hour and bit so they has peace and quiet to eat .
And what I remember from that yard was settled happy horses who all knew their job .

 

[Casey76]

Just out of interest, how are the horses in general (condition, demeanour, etc.) that are kept as you describe Casey?

We have a whole range of horses and ponies on the yard, and in the most instance everyone is pretty chill. There are a couple of bitey horses, however that is due to poor handling/training. There are a couple of door kickers at meal times. Most of the horses and ponies lean towards being porky, but we also have some which are competing to a decent level (juniors jumping 1,20 etc). I will say that they aren't over fed at all. Most are on 1 measure of Baileys LoCal, or 1 scoop of the high fibre mix.

When I was at the riding school, I was lucky in that there was pretty decent management at the time (I moved due to the decreasing turnout and lack of mucking out), but the school horses were worked about 3-4 hours a day (though people did complain that their favourite school horse turned into a nightmare when they bought them *smh*) Pinto was always really cool, but I had a sharer who used to enjoy fast hacks, and we would hack for hours at the weekend, or go on 1hr road rides at 10kmph.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Back in the 80s I was a WP at a large comp/livery/RS/exam centre. We had RS ponies (and a couple of RS horses) that lived ta grass but the livery yard only had very limited turnout-they had to book turnout times and slots. I did three WB stallions and had my own stallion paddock which I used regularly but those horses were expected to be spotless at all times so the owner could ride whenever he could fit it in between teaching. My other liveries did not have regular turnout even in the summer.

Nearly all of them were absolutely fine (and the couple that werent I think with hindsight didnt like their internal stables)-they were happy, fit horses that were worked daily-some were leisure horses, some dressage and some hunters. They were all full livery so the owners had nothing to do than ride and many were used for WPs in the school or hacked by them as well. They would be in 2 hours work a day, 6 days a week minimum from memory.

 

[Cortez]

We have a whole range of horses and ponies on the yard, and in the most instance everyone is pretty chill. There are a couple of bitey horses, however that is due to poor handling/training. There are a couple of door kickers at meal times. Most of the horses and ponies lean towards being porky, but we also have some which are competing to a decent level (juniors jumping 1,20 etc). I will say that they aren't over fed at all. Most are on 1 measure of Baileys LoCal, or 1 scoop of the high fibre mix.

When I was at the riding school, I was lucky in that there was pretty decent management at the time (I moved due to the decreasing turnout and lack of mucking out), but the school horses were worked about 3-4 hours a day (though people did complain that their favourite school horse turned into a nightmare when they bought them *smh*) Pinto was always really cool, but I had a sharer who used to enjoy fast hacks, and we would hack for hours at the weekend, or go on 1hr road rides at 10kmph.

So, in fact, those horses were absolutely fine being kept in? I think it's the idea of turnout that gets people all het up about horses being kept in; the horses SHOULD want to be out with the wind in their manes and acres of rolling green pasture to canter about on like Spirit the Mustang, etc., etc. but in reality horses don't much care where they are as long as they have food, water and sufficient - this is the vital bit - exercise. Turning out in a bare, or deeply muddy & unpleasant, postage stamp-sized paddock is no pleasure for horses. They would be better off stabled and worked.

Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?

 

[wingedhorse]

Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?

I don’t entirely agree.

I work my horses. Mixture competing, clinics, lessons, schooling, polework, faster work, hillwork, long hacking.
I compete at Medium dressage, and like them aerobically fit, and well cross trained. I also have two sharers that mainly hack mid week.
My horses work 6-8 times most weeks. Including boxing out to compete / clinics / longer hacks / gallops etc.

HOWEVER my horses also think it is their God given right to have time in a field being a horse.
Time to roll, scratch each other, and charge about and mooch!

Mine have unlimited adlib hay in stables. But that doesn’t mollify them if they think it is the time of day they think they should be playing in the field.

Now they will stay in if need be, e.g. for farrier / injury / competition etc. But not without looking pointedly at me and field!

Most horses I know, if offered decent turnout, with something to eat, well draining, sheltered spacious field group and nice friends, will then quickly adapt to EXPECTING daily turnout, and expressing an opinion on it.

Different if horses aren’t used to good turnout, or the turnout is grim and horses don’t want to be out.

I’ve had four horses that had little turnout before I got them. In less than three weeks with each horse, they loved turnout, and had strong opinions on daily field time (and not because in a routine, because they wanted time in field)

I do agree that a great many people keep horses and don’t work them very much and don’t ride one week to the next. Or potter a bit, and I do agree that good turnout as a way to move and exercise is more important for these horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

So, in fact, those horses were absolutely fine being kept in? I think it's the idea of turnout that gets people all het up about horses being kept in; the horses SHOULD want to be out with the wind in their manes and acres of rolling green pasture to canter about on like Spirit the Mustang, etc., etc. but in reality horses don't much care where they are as long as they have food, water and sufficient - this is the vital bit - exercise. Turning out in a bare, or deeply muddy & unpleasant, postage stamp-sized paddock is no pleasure for horses. They would be better off stabled and worked.

Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?

Of course you can't generalise but I think you are right many people have horses and don't work them.
They think that turnout in a small paddock can negate the need for exercise it doesn't .
They think that if the horse is out in a small paddock 24/7 is enough exercise to keep a horse healthy, it's not .
They think ambling about the roads for forty minutes four times a week is work
Theres a great load of horse out there not getting any thing like enough work to compensate for their management .
And fat don't get me started on the weights that are considered normal .
I glad we hunt it makes my life easy in that the horses are in hardest work when turnout is most restricted .

 

[Fiona]

Hubby and I moved 20 miles further away from where we work so we could afford to buy our own property with land etc for the horses. This was partly because we had 3 horses at the time and livery costs were getting a bigger % of our monthly budget, and partly due to the last livery yard we were at (told they had all year turnout, winter in smaller fields, but the winter fields were actually 1/2 acre of weeds which disappeared within a fortnight in October leaving horses in knee deep mud until our mare tried to climb out and bruised her tendon on the wire (fortunately plain wire))...

Now after 16 years at home, we have a school, stables, a new all weather 20x20 turnout and about 6.5 acres of grazing which we know how to use so it doesn't get poached in the winter.

This winter has been lovely and dry though, so the pony has lived out, and the two horses have got turned out every day except for about 3 days, with the all weather on maybe about 10 days.

The last time we had 24/7 stabling for weeks was in the snow of 2009 and 2010, and though the horses got used to the altered routine, they were glad to get back to normal again.

From a soppy human POV, I don't like pony being out 24/7 but as she can't eat hay its very much the easiest way of managing her.

Fiona

 

[Damnation]

Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?

I don't fully disagree but I don't fully agree either.

As I've said before I was on one yard who promised turnout and an arena being built (or I would have never moved there) and neither materialised. With nowhere to ride and no turnout it was stressful so I left to a yard that does offer turnout and has an arena with lights.

The flip side is aswell, if you are around all day or it is your yard/business you have the pick of the facilities, have daylight in which to exercise and are perhaps not on such a time table as someone who works full time. The YO's at previous yard could cope with the no turnout because it was their business, they had all day to exercise, including a groom who exercised. I did ask if they would exercise mine during the day and I would be happy to pay, they agreed to do it but it never happened.

I've also been on yards where even though there are facilities, they are booked weeks in advance (usually by the same people, as far forward as you are allowed to book) or they hire out for Competitions or dog clubs. This means Joe Bloggs who works 40hrs a week is scuppered as you can't actually get anywhere near the facilities to do anything with your horse.

It is an argument that has so many variables I don't think it can be attributed to one thing.

Mine is on a yard with turnout. It is muddy, they have a round feeder of hay which they share well, nothing has gotten mudfever, been kicked or even lost a shoe (miraculously!). Yes they are muddy but they are happy and eager to go out every day and that is how I personally like to keep my horses.

If I had adequate facilities with a decent amount of availablity and no turnout, then I will keep in 24/7 as I can then ensure she gets exercised which I have done previously. However she wasn't as settled as she is now on daily turnout.